Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Recent happenings of pertinence to Sonic fans.
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Wombatwarlord777
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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Wombatwarlord777 »

Concerning that IGN article, it sounds like the usual verdict for new Sonic games: Great aesthetics, horrendously shitty gameplay. I'm surprised, however, that they still haven't fixed the carmera after over 10 years of 3D games. That's one of the biggest consistant complaints of the series. So do they try to improve the camera and fail each time, or what?

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by G.Silver »

The European fanart can be seen in this Youtube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_XPLBnrAFs

Gotta say putting it in video form (instead of a browsable gallery) and not being able to view the art at your own pace is really lame!

Edit: And here's USA & Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHiYcs84 ... annel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_vI_JtR ... annel_page

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Kogen
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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Kogen »

Wombatwarlord777 wrote:Concerning that IGN article, it sounds like the usual verdict for new Sonic games: Great aesthetics, horrendously shitty gameplay. I'm surprised, however, that they still haven't fixed the carmera after over 10 years of 3D games. That's one of the biggest consistant complaints of the series. So do they try to improve the camera and fail each time, or what?
This might be shocking but... there is nothing wrong with the camera.

IGN are just that austistic.

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Rolken
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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Rolken »

OK, well, I haven't played the game, so maybe this response is making some unfair assumptions, and if so I apologize. Maybe the camera is in fact totally OK and IGN is just tarding out; I wouldn't know. But if it does cause issues, then this particular line of defense gets trotted out all the time, and it's misguided.

Just because a flaw can be managed doesn't make it OK. It's not the player's job to be keeping the camera from going behind walls; that's the developer's job. When the game becomes less about running around as Sonic and more about managing technical stuff and keeping the game in check, that's a bad thing, regardless of whether decent players should be able to cope with it. Managing cameras and the like isn't fun, it's what you have to go through to get to the fun. Less fun = worse reviews, and rightfully so.

The nature of the challenge a game presents is important. Making a good game isn't about raw difficulty, it's about the nature of that difficulty and whether the challenges presented are interesting and entertaining to overcome. The camera shouldn't be getting caught behind "foreground barriers" in any situation because that's not an obstacle that invites you to overcome it.

You can probably tell that I enjoy thinking about game design.

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Baba O'Riley »

DackAttac wrote:
Baba O'Riley wrote: SLASHING THROUGH ME
EVERY INCH OF THE POWER
THE POWER IN YOU
They are doing this on purpose.
I'd like to think this is all an elaborate parody.

And it's rarely that a camera is done exactly to the way that everyone likes it. I remember a huge debate on this forum about the perfect 3D camera, and I don't think anyone ever came to a consensus, so I think the main thing to worry about is if it consciously ruins the game for you.

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Kogen
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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Kogen »

Gears of War, Ninja Gaiden, God of War, and so on all have the same camera issues. It is just how it is. Blaming Sonic is not really going to change that fact.

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by DackAttac »

Camera or whatever flaw it may be, it all boils down to the same principle: Is it worth the effort? How hard is it to adapt to the flaw, and if you do, how much fun will you have? It's hard to argue that SA1 (and most of the games around that smoothing-out-the-3D-lumps era) didn't have their fair share of issues... riddled with them. But beyond those issues, some very engaging platforming. If I get around a modern Sonic game's issues, I get... well, it's a mixed bag, but it's never really worth it.

I agree that a competent programmer would have ironed that out by now. But I'd settle for a semi-competent programmer that could just render the issue of whether the camera worked well or not trivial again. I remember hearing loads of "the camera is awful" since SA1 came out, but it didn't bug me until Heroes.

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by K2J »

The problem is, until Heroes, combat wasn't a big priority in the Sonic series, so looking behind you didn't usually matter so much.

Also, what the hell is this song doing here (4 minutes in). They did it for Shadow, too.

Also noteworthy is the cutscene after the battle (6 minutes in). Oh silly Knuckles, even in attempted suicide nobody can take you seriously.

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Xyton »

K2J wrote:The problem is, until Heroes, combat wasn't a big priority in the Sonic series, so looking behind you didn't usually matter so much.
While that's mostly true, I remember Sonic Adventure 2 frustrating the shit out of me when I was looking for something (usually a mystic melody spot) and I'd spin the camera around, only to have it jump back to where it was before I adjusted anything, and often causing me to fall to my death.

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by DackAttac »

The presentation is glorious, but even it doesn't feel appropriate for a Sonic game. Gameplay looks closer to Heroes with a dash of Werehog than an off-rails Secret Rings to me. Half-ass combat and QTE, platforming existing only to get Sonic from one to the next. For years, people barked to get Sonic to the front and center of the games and ditch all the supporting cast, but now that they have, the quality's in the tank. I'm unfortunately starting to associate the bugger in non-sprite form with utter mediocrity.

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Rolken
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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Rolken »

DackAttac wrote:Camera or whatever flaw it may be, it all boils down to the same principle: Is it worth the effort? How hard is it to adapt to the flaw, and if you do, how much fun will you have? It's hard to argue that SA1 (and most of the games around that smoothing-out-the-3D-lumps era) didn't have their fair share of issues... riddled with them. But beyond those issues, some very engaging platforming. If I get around a modern Sonic game's issues, I get... well, it's a mixed bag, but it's never really worth it.

I agree that a competent programmer would have ironed that out by now. But I'd settle for a semi-competent programmer that could just render the issue of whether the camera worked well or not trivial again. I remember hearing loads of "the camera is awful" since SA1 came out, but it didn't bug me until Heroes.
Yeah, that's more of what I was getting at. It's not so much that the camera specifically is fatal, as that it's a death by a thousand cuts, and the camera is a contributing offender. It's always a matter of degrees, which is why game reviews are on scales instead of yes/no (unless you're Tom Chick).

Note also that the way SADX reviews nosedived makes more sense in the context of his post. When SA was originally released, it was novel and interesting, so it was easier to push through the flaws; a few years later, the sheen had worn off, but all the bad elements were still there.

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Crowbar »

DackAttac wrote:The presentation is glorious
Really? The environments in that video and every other I've seen have been painfully bland. Unless you meant those illustrated bits, which I guess are kind of nice looking but could have been executed better (I just don't like that "cross-fade between the drawings" way they do it).

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Ngangbius »

G.Silver wrote:The European fanart can be seen in this Youtube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_XPLBnrAFs

Gotta say putting it in video form (instead of a browsable gallery) and not being able to view the art at your own pace is really lame!

Edit: And here's USA & Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHiYcs84 ... annel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_vI_JtR ... annel_page
Seriously, that is a cheap-assed move. I couldn't even take in all the details of a picture at once since the camera pans too quickly from one area to the next.

I noticed that there were more pre-SA era fanart in the Euro&NA sections than the Japan one.

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

K2J wrote:The problem is, until Heroes, combat wasn't a big priority in the Sonic series, so looking behind you didn't usually matter so much.

Also, what the hell is this song doing here (4 minutes in). They did it for Shadow, too.

Also noteworthy is the cutscene after the battle (6 minutes in). Oh silly Knuckles, even in attempted suicide nobody can take you seriously.
Ah Sonic, only you can completely change another person's world view with one non-descript, monosyllabic sentence.

Why the hell are today's kids eat this shit up?

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Wombatwarlord777 »

I also find it hard to believe this game isn't on rails. If it's possible, the levels look even more linear than Secret Rings, and Sonic accelerates so fast that I swear it was the same game, wonky wii-mote controls and all.

On a insignificantly positive note, I guess this game marks the 3-D debute of the end stage flip panel (or whatever you call it). Hooray for trifiling nostalgia!

EDIT - Sonic is right in the Knuckles video. Knuckles is so cheese-ily melodramatic once he's defeated. Makes me yearn for "Oh no!".

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Esrever »

Oh, it's completely on rails. It's exactly like Sonic and the Secret Rings, only controlled by joystick instead of by tilting.

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Zeta »

It looks like Secret Rings + No More Heroes, and actually pretty decent. I liked the grass effects on the plains level.

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Baba O'Riley »

Esrever wrote:Oh, it's completely on rails. It's exactly like Sonic and the Secret Rings, only controlled by joystick instead of by tilting.
Well, at least that game mechanic is gone.

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by gr4yJ4Y »

The thing I don’t get is most of the videos I've seen have been a good mix of platforming and sword-swinging, but after watching IGN's video review, it's clear that there's way more focus on combat.

Did anyone really play Secret Rings and think it needed some focus on fighting? Doesn't Sega do any kind of research before it makes games?

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Tsuyoshi-kun »

Because Sega wouldn't be able to push out these games every two years like clockwork if they did.

I hope for a Sonic in Wonderland game next. Big as the Cheshire Cat may actually make me play the game.

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Locit »

gr4yJ4Y wrote:Doesn't Sega do any kind of research before it makes games?
You knew the answer to that question before you asked it.

We all did.

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Kogen »

They do research.

For example. Sumo said they use flash cards of Sonic characters to see what new freak 3 kids think is a great idea for the next Sonic game.

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Wombatwarlord777 »

gr4yj4y wrote:
Doesn't Sega do any kind of research before it makes games?
That's what DeviantART is for!

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by Kogen »

Wombatwarlord777 wrote:
gr4yj4y wrote:
Doesn't Sega do any kind of research before it makes games?
That's what DeviantART is for!
http://fc35.deviantart.com/fs8/i/2005/3 ... Spotty.jpg

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Re: Sonic and the Quest for Phallic Compensation

Post by K2J »

So, deep within the game there are apparently "Legacy" missions, which feature only one type of enemy: Egg Flappers. You can't hit them with your sword, either, so they're basically homing attack targets. Also features springs, dash panels, etc... It's a shameless attempt at fan pandering; the missions are very short (which shows how small the levels themselves are) and uninteresting.

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