The GHZ Forum

K2J wrote:

Green Gibbon! wrote:Doesn't the dark desert race in Sonic Riders take place during a total solar eclipse?

Heh, I kinda forgot about it. But then again, I always thought the Riders series took place prior to SA1 for some reason.

Except Rouge and Shadow and Cream are playable?

Not in Story mode.

I don't know why, but I've never been affected by the plotholes in the Sonic series. In an almost fanficcy sort of way, I just make up my own interpretation of the story that may or may not contradict the actual games, and just go on that. In my Sonic world, the moon is still destroyed and nothing's happened in the continuity since SA2. I bet you're all pretty jealous, right?

Not really. Sonic Adventure 2 sucked ass.

SA2 was fine. It was the games after it that sucked ass.

Although I'm still somewhat fond of the first Advance, shallow as it was.

SA2 crippled the fluid Sonic gameplay of its predecessor and started the trend of having every single level be a string of platforms stretched across a level-spanning bottomless pit, and copy-paste obstacles from start to finish. Adventure gave you 1 whale chase, 1 tornado climb, a casino with 3 wildly different means of winning the level and no forced replays of the other 2 (unless you sucked), 1 snowboard section, 1 bumper car race, 1 skyscraper run, and so on. SA2, on the other hand, made you go through every unique gimmick at least twice, and none were as memorable as those in the first game. Frankly, after Adventure the level design got stripped of all its interest and then shot in the balls. Twice.

So, yeah. I agree with the claim that SA2 sucked ass. Just the fact that they gave Sonic a stationary spin attack is proof enough that the creators had already back then lost every clue they had about what sort of franchise they were supposed to be dealing with. I mean, stationary attack? What the hell? The spin-dash worked great, why did they cripple it in SA2 and then outright remove it in every game that followed?

I think what inhibited my enjoyment of SA2 at the time was it was obvious the core mechanics were unraveling. I was able to go back and enjoy it for its strengths after my worst fears were confirmed. It strayed from the path about as much as all the games that followed it, but when it was on, it was dead-on.

Owen Axel wrote:So, yeah. I agree with the claim that SA2 sucked ass. Just the fact that they gave Sonic a stationary spin attack is proof enough that the creators had already back then lost every clue they had about what sort of franchise they were supposed to be dealing with. I mean, stationary attack? What the hell? The spin-dash worked great, why did they cripple it in SA2 and then outright remove it in every game that followed?

...what? The spindash was always stationary before SA1 (and I hated SA1's, it just felt so wrong that you could spindash while running and gain speed even if you don't really charge it). SA2's was great though, it wasn't as cheap as SA1's, felt a bit heavier (which is a plus) and while you could still do it while running it''d halt you to a full stop. Great.

I also kinda like Shadow's, as it was weak without charging it up for a period of time first (which is why I prefer Sonic CD's spindash over S2/3's). Too bad it was entirely useless because Shadow on his feet accelerated insanely fast.

P.P.A. wrote:

Owen Axel wrote:So, yeah. I agree with the claim that SA2 sucked ass. Just the fact that they gave Sonic a stationary spin attack is proof enough that the creators had already back then lost every clue they had about what sort of franchise they were supposed to be dealing with. I mean, stationary attack? What the hell? The spin-dash worked great, why did they cripple it in SA2 and then outright remove it in every game that followed?

...what? The spindash was always stationary before SA1 (and I hated SA1's, it just felt so wrong that you could spindash while running and gain speed even if you don't really charge it). SA2's was great though, it wasn't as cheap as SA1's, felt a bit heavier (which is a plus) and while you could still do it while running it''d halt you to a full stop. Great.

I also kinda like Shadow's, as it was weak without charging it up for a period of time first (which is why I prefer Sonic CD's spindash over S2/3's). Too bad it was entirely useless because Shadow on his feet accelerated insanely fast.

Sorry, I phrased that wrong. I was talking about the stationary kick attack in SA2 that only hits like one tile space ahead of Sonic. The very fact that the spin-dash exists makes that roll kick thing so redundant there's no justifying that the designers put it in. Still, cheap or not, being able to go from running to spin-dashing without stopping for a second was one of the things that made Sonic Adventure so much fun to play for me. Sonic's whole point is that he's supposed to be able to run circles around his enemies and cross the scenery in no time at all. Actually giving the player the ability to DO that in no way counts as cheap in my book. That they were able to do that without causing you to lose control and skid over the edge (looking at you, Heroes), is good enough to make me more than willing to look the other way about the mountain of glitches that game had.

P.P.A. wrote:

K2J wrote:

Green Gibbon! wrote:Doesn't the dark desert race in Sonic Riders take place during a total solar eclipse?

Heh, I kinda forgot about it. But then again, I always thought the Riders series took place prior to SA1 for some reason.

Except Rouge and Shadow and Cream are playable?

A more reliable argument (due to the story mode thing...) would be the fact that knuckles was "chillin" with sonic in Sonic Riders as a friend, while before SA1 they didn't "chill" together at all.

Bah, you're right. Between SA1 and SA2 is still possible, but you know what? I'm not even going to care anymore.

SA2 was definitely flawed and it's by no means my favorite Sonic game, but I wouldn't say it completely sucked in the same vein as the games that came after it. Level design was definitely less innovative than its predecessor, which I noticed halfway through my first run, but it had its own distinctive style going for it with the San Francisco/sci-fi design scheme. And in its defense, I don't hold the bottomless pits against SA2 as much as I do for games like Heroes. They were implemented a little more naturally, and a lot of them even made sense in context, with a good chunk of the game's setting being in outer space. I'd go as far as to say that some levels (like Sky Rail), even made the bottomless pit component fun, in a tricky, risk-taking sort of way. Of course, that was long before the concept would eventually become played out to the point where it was only frustrating.

But besides that, the story is one of the best the series has had to offer, the music was excellent, there wasn't an obnoxious amount of characters, hell, even the boss battles were kind of fun. One of my few gripes is the fact that we were forced to play as different characters with varying gameplay, and if Sonic Team could create a new game of equal quality minus that aspect, I'd be ecstatic.

Hulkshmash wrote: A more reliable argument (due to the story mode thing...) would be the fact that knuckles was "chillin" with sonic in Sonic Riders as a friend, while before SA1 they didn't "chill" together at all.

Adding on to this....you can also see the Tornado 2 in one of the cutscenes.

And SA2 is my favorite 3D Sonic game. IMO, the controls were PERFECT, and I just don't understand why they didn't just re-use them for future games. And I agree with RocketPunch that the bottomless pits in that game were done really well compared to future games. I still play (and have fun in) Sonic's "Final Rush" level.

My only (insignificant) problem with SA2 was that they tried to do some kind of primitive self-shadowing thing with the characters, and you'd see these ugly black splotches on them.

When is Sega Games Day? All I can find out is it's possibly some time in May. I want more info on Unleashed already.

It's May 14th.

Sweet. Hopefully we'll get some early gameplay footage and maybe a look at the whole Were-Sonic thing. Thats still the only thing I've seen to worry me.

Owen Axel wrote:So, yeah. I agree with the claim that SA2 sucked ass. Just the fact that they gave Sonic a stationary spin attack is proof enough that the creators had already back then lost every clue they had about what sort of franchise they were supposed to be dealing with. I mean, stationary attack? What the hell? The spin-dash worked great, why did they cripple it in SA2 and then outright remove it in every game that followed?

I completely agree. This pretty much sums up what I didn't like about SA2. That and the fact that nobody turns into a ball when they jump, which looked awesome on SA1. The spindash in SA1 many times felt like pressing down in the old Genesis games. There you were, ruinning and stuff, and you wanted to turn into a ball, just press DOWN and there it is. SA1 had the B button for that. SA2 killed it completely. No more running spindash for you Sonic. Say goodbye to that and hello to crappy useless sommersault. The sommersault is for me the moment everything began to crumble. It sucks in every aspect. There isn't a single moment in the game where I think "Allright! Time to do a sommersault. This is gonna be so much fun!". And the worst part is that they actually thought that was a good idea, because they kept the damn thing for all the other Sonic games.

I remember saying back when Shadow the Hedgehog was about to come out that I didn't mind him having an uzi in his hand as long as he wouldn't do that stupid somersault kick thing. Now I'll say I don't mind Sonic becoming Altered Beast, as long as he doesn't have to do any stupid, slow, stationary sommersault attacks.

They removed the spindash because 3D Sonic games became less about "rolling a ball down hill"-style momentum and more about "do a never ending string of cool looking moves" momentum. Acrobatics with timed button presses and all that stuff.

I am of the opinion that "cool moves"momentum isn't any less valid than "rolling a ball" momentum, it's just different - what makes it invalid is the often shitty implementation it receives. It's implemented alright in SA2, but anything after that is a crap shoot. It is, however, implemented to awesome results in the Sonic Rush games, if you're in to that sort of thing.

For all it's problems I think SA2 at least makes it into the top ten Sonic games for me; it''s just a shame how infrequently Sonic actually appears in it.
I don't know why they didn't make Sonic playable in any speed stage after completion of story mode.

I'm warming a bit to unleashed, but the werewolf just spoils it all really. I'm not as cynical about recent efforts as some, but the werewolf really is just unacceptable.

Opa-Opa wrote:There you were, ruinning and stuff, and you wanted to turn into a ball, just press DOWN and there it is. SA1 had the B button for that. SA2 killed it completely. No more running spindash for you Sonic. Say goodbye to that and hello to crappy useless sommersault. The sommersault is for me the moment everything began to crumble.

Actually, if you're going full speed, tapping B will turn you into a ball. You pick up more speed on ramps than running but the scripted sequences weren't designed to be done that fast, so it's a little out of control. An easy place to try it is Shadow's Radical Highway going down the big hill.

hedgepig wrote:For all it's problems I think SA2 at least makes it into the top ten Sonic games for me

Is that really saying that much? I mean, are there even nine solidly good Sonic games?

Well... by my count...

There's:
1. Sonic 2
2.Sonic CD
3. Sonic 1
4. S3 and K
5 Sonic Adventure
6. Sonic Adventure 2
7. Sonic R
8. Triple Trouble
9. I hate to say it but Sonic Heroes

hard pushed for a tenth.

Oh then there's the rush games which I've never played. I'm sure they get in.

Sonic CD
Sonic 3&K
Sonic 2
Sonic Adventure
Sonic 1
Sonic Adventure 2
Tails Adventures
Sonic Advance
Sonic Triple Trouble
Sonic Chaos

Not entirely sure of the order (except for the first three, and that SA1 > SA2), or if those are even my best top 10, but there you go.

And if you don't like Tails Adventures being in there, then ditch it and toss Sonic Rush somewhat low in that list (it's good, but it's not my fave).

Sonic CD
Sonic 3 and Knuckles
Sonic 1 16-bit
Sonic 2 16-bit
Sonic Adventure
Sonic Triple Trouble / Sonic and Tails 2
Sonic 1 8-bit
Sonic Chaos / Sonic and Tails
Sonic Adventure 2
Sonic Heroes

Yes, I prefer some of the Game Gear Sonic games over Heroes and Adventure 2. I agree with everything Owen Axel said on SA 2, most of which can be transferred over to Heroes as well. I also hated the ranking shit they introduced from NiGHTS, which wouldn't be so bad if your score didn't reset to 0 every time you died. Who at Sonic Team thought THAT was a good idea?

(100% subjective:)

• Sonic CD
• Sonic Adventure 2 Battle *
• Sonic the Hedgehog (16-bit) *
• Sonic R *
• Knuckles' Chaotix *
• SONIC THE HEDGEHOG (2006)
• Sonic Chaos (SMS)
• Sonic Triple Trouble/Sonic & Tails 2 (Would probably be ranked higher if I started TAing it.)
• Sonic Pinball Party (Underrated. Really charming and addictive.)
• Sonic & Knuckles (Without Sonic 3.)
• Sonic Advance

*: I'm not really sure about the order of these four.

SHIT TIER:

• Sonic Rush
• Sonic 3D Flickies' Island (MD)
• Shadow the Hedgehog
• Sonic Heroes
• Sonic Shuffle (Though the graphics and music were cool. I liked this surreal atmosphere.)
• Sonic Blast/G-Sonic

Sonic games I have not yet played and therefore cannot judge: SegaSonic, SatSR, Rivals(both), SRA, S3D Saturn, SA1(DC) (and SA2DC, but I don't think there are huge differences.)