Sonic Unleashed?

[Hybrid]

While we're talking about length, I sort of think that S3&K is pretty much just the right length for a Sonic game, regardless of whether we're talking about Genesis Sonic or next-gen Sonic. You could probably beat the game in three or four hours the first time through, but going back for Emeralds and unlocking the final "Super" stage adds a fair bit of time, as does the replayability. I'm actually finding there's not much replayability in Unleashed because there's only like, six or seven "proper" daytime stages (not including Eggmanland for obvious reasons) and all the extra daytime acts really, really suck. Since the levels only last three or four minutes, I can replay every part of the game I'll ever want to within half an hour, and that's just not enough. A game like S3&K, which has a large list of different locales, each of them with at least two proper acts, would last a lot longer.

I also think they kind of got the 2D/3D ratio mixed up in Unleashed. Because the 3D sections rarely do anything more than provide spectacle for certain set-pieces, the default view should have been 2D, only switching to 3D when you've got to run down a straightaway blasting robots or drift around a corner. With 3D being the default view, too much of the game is spectacle.

[G.Silver]

Now, the price has doubled

What are you saying? Video game prices have only recently had their first increase from $50 this generation to $60, and that's only with certain games on certain consoles (and during the 16-bit days some of those cart games were going well above $50 anyway, $60 or even $70 pricetags weren't uncommon at some stores). Unless you only just now started buying games that weren't in the bargain bin, if anything game prices are cheaper because they haven't gone up with the decreasing value of the dollar. Maybe it's gone up in other countries but it says here that you're in New York.

For me, game length and replay value are tied tightly together on a graph where the longer it is, the less inclined I am to ever play it again, and I believe this is true for other people and that's what's driven the market in the longer-games direction. Initially I thought I was just being crotchety and longing for ye olden days, but when we measure a game's value in hours of a single play, then clearly other gamers are not looking at long games as something to play over and over, they're looking for a game to play before they get their next game. I don't know about others, but a game that I can't beat in one sitting is frequently unsatisfying to play if I've already beaten it, or at the very least, they don't feel like a good investment of time (I could, for instance, go read a book).

The only short games that do well these days it seems (besides maybe Portal) are all multiplayer, and I wonder if that's really because they are multiplayer or because they are something you can dip into for a quick, satisfying experience in just a few minutes. Even "hardcore gamers," at that level, are in fact after the exact same thing the disdainful "casual gamers" are getting after a few minutes of Bejeweled.

A good game should offer enough scope for exploration to allow for a much longer play session.

I think of all the Sonic games, Sonic CD offers the greatest diversity in the "how long does it take to beat it" department, because you can go straight through, you can go through getting all the Time Stones, or you can go through wacking Metal Sonic and those Robot Thingies (and then Time Attack offers whatever it offers to us OCD types). It's the difference between an hour and (depending on how well you know the levels and how much screwing around you do) several. I always found the MINIMUM amount of time to beat S3K was longer than I wanted to spend most of the time on a single playthrough, and really, once you can get the Emeralds on a single try grabbing them all doesn't add much time to it.

[DackAttac]

What are you saying? Video game prices have only recently had their first increase from $50 this generation to $60, and that's only with certain games on certain consoles (and during the 16-bit days some of those cart games were going well above $50 anyway, $60 or even $70 pricetags weren't uncommon at some stores). Unless you only just now started buying games that weren't in the bargain bin, if anything game prices are cheaper because they haven't gone up with the decreasing value of the dollar. Maybe it's gone up in other countries but it says here that you're in New York.

Yyyyyyeah. Alright. I'm busted. I didn't own a Genesis until 1998. (And not to be left behind the times again, I would get a Dreamcast the following year.) My parents were afraid it'd make me into a television-monopolizing couch potato of some kind. Imagine! They got me a Game Gear for Christmas '92 instead. But back then, video rental stores would rent out consoles. I'd rent a Genesis and four or so games of interest with my birthday money each year, and try to make the most of that weekend as possible. My knowledge of 90's gaming comes purely from the rentals, the Game Gear, the PC version of S3&K, and playing at friends' houses.

The list price for Game Gear games was $30. I used that as a baseline. Unwisely, obviously. Maybe if I'd actually looked to see that handheld games are still $30 I could have made a more accurate estimation. But whoops. I didn't. Sorry 'bout that.

While we're on the subject, you'll see CDs and DVDs marked down significantly on their first week of release. I don't remember that happening to video games, ever. Even when the dollar didn't suck. I wonder why.

[Isuka]

To keep people from downloading, perhaps?
Games' prices went down with the introduction of CD-ROM based consoles, don't know about, say, Sega CD or TurboGrafx-CD games.

Just tried out the PS2 version, not too far into it yet. It's a pretty solid B game, I can picture children having a really good time with it but not much more. Sonic's daytime levels' engine is a little flawed but you don't get to suffer it thanks to the way the stages have been designed.
Werehog's stages are long but not Sonic Heroes long. Being a cheap God of War rip-off that manages to look considerably worse and run at 30 fps doesn't help matters any, but it's still fully tolerable and enjoyable. Making Sonic dash in this form feels like he's ice skating, not reliable for precise platforming (which is the one reason why I dig his stages) but serviceable for cutting through long, mostly empty passageways and get S ranks and stuff.
Loading screens/ auto-saving screens/ cutscenes/ stupid progression stuff aplenty, can't stand those.

Just as I suspected, neither of the two feel even remotely like actual Sonic games in three dimensions, Sonic/ Shadow gameplay in Adventure 2 was the last thing that somewhat resembled it and even then that felt like a fine-tuned-yet-shallower version of Adventure 1's Sonic levels yadda yadda yadda. But it isn't half bad.
I'd love to try out the 360 version.

[Frieza2000]

I've been watching a playthrough of the 360 version. It reminds me of all the times I've played through S2-K with the Super Sonic cheat, debugged myself to 50 rings, and blasted through the level at full speed, except twice as awesome. As in the old games there are some parts where you're forced to slow down and some where you'll get killed if you're flying mindlessly (Carnival Night), but Unleashed is specifically designed with this kind of play in mind. The obstacle course style reflex-tests complement it perfectly. The thrill of getting it right on your first time, or just the satisfaction of a perfect run after you've memorized it, the camera angles that add to the the already fantastic sense of speed, and the gorgeous backdrops create an experience far surpassing anything I've felt with Super Sonic. In fact, this control scheme effectively answers the call for in-level Super Sonic. You're already practically invulnerable while boosting and you don't loose all of your rings when you get hit, and if you ran much faster the game wouldn't be playable. There's little to add save flight.

But as Smile says, this is only half of a Sonic game. They've minimized Sonic's platforming and exiled most of the explorative elements to the werehog levels, physically separating the two methods of play rather than integrating them harmoniously. That's certainly easier and allows the designer to craft levels more perfectly geared to one or the other, but it's not really Sonic. It ends up being a speedy, earthbound NiGHTS in the day and a generic mascot platformer at night. I wouldn't mind seeing the daytime style of play incorporated into future games with some improvements, but I'd like to see it as part of a whole.

And it allows a considerable level of backtracking in many areas, where the camera is very cooperative, and the ability to just stop and admire the gorgeous scenery.

Really? Does it have SA1 kind of love in the detail? Naturally the guy I'm watching is blasting through as fast as he can, but I haven't caught sight of too many spots that seemed like nice places to stop.

I don't know about others, but a game that I can't beat in one sitting is frequently unsatisfying to play if I've already beaten it, or at the very least, they don't feel like a good investment of time (I could, for instance, go read a book).

I don't frequently replay long games in much the way I wouldn't reread a book unless it's been a few years and it was good enough to be worth the time. I've never been into rereading books, but my abandonment of conquered games is partially because of a change in mentality. When I was young I beat lengthy RPGs many times through - Dragon Warrior 1 & 2, Faxanadu, Star Tropics, Final Fantasy - but back then my time wasn't so valuable. There's also the fact that I didn't have a salary and only a handful of games were available to me each year, but that limitation never really struck me because it never seemed like there was an unending stream of interesting games like it does today.

[Locit]

Really? Does it have SA1 kind of love in the detail? Naturally the guy I'm watching is blasting through as fast as he can, but I haven't caught sight of too many spots that seemed like nice places to stop.

Actually it's pretty useful in finding out how to get to seemingly unreachable alternate routes.

Also, wow, the last battle of this game. Like, there are some really cool bits like the Super Sonic flying segment reminiscent of S3&K's Doomsday Zone! And then there is everything else!

[G.Silver]

I don't frequently replay long games in much the way I wouldn't reread a book unless it's been a few years

I meant an unread book. :)

[G.Silver]

Also, my ebay auction has ended:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0289112495

This is actually MORE than I paid for it from Amazon. How did this happen??

[Esrever]

It kind of bums me out to hear about all the agony this game seems to be putting you guys through in its latter half. See, I'm still a lot further behind than all of you -- I've only done all the regular day/night stages in Apatos, Spagonia, Mazuri, Chun-An, and Holaska, plus a good chunk of the extra acts -- but god help me, I'm having a good time. I think I may even be having a great time. I like the hubs, I like the regular Sonic stages, I like the totally brutal Sonic mini-levels, and I am even sort of enjoying the werehog stuff.

But most of the stuff you guys have really ripped on -- the evil later levels, the agony that hits when you don't have enough emblems -- are things I haven't happened to me yet. So every time I sit down to play some more, I'm just constantly waiting for the kick in the nuts, you know? Because if the game really does take a dramatic turn for the excruciating it's going to be extra disappointing now, because so far the only parts that have really annoyed me are any of the moments when Chip opens his mouth.

[Ngangbius]

^Wait, you liked Holaska's Day Stage sled section? I thought that part was pretty awful.

Werehog is getting a bit more tolerable thanks to the Special Dash Attacks that seem to be more effecient and powerful than most of of the other attacks up to this point.

Also, my ebay auction has ended:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0289112495

This is actually MORE than I paid for it from Amazon. How did this happen??

Maybe the Wii version is selling better than expected, but at least you made a profit. :-)

[Radrappy]

It kind of bums me out to hear about all the agony this game seems to be putting you guys through in its latter half. See, I'm still a lot further behind than all of you -- I've only done all the regular day/night stages in Apatos, Spagonia, Mazuri, Chun-An, and Holaska, plus a good chunk of the extra acts -- but god help me, I'm having a good time. I think I may even be having a great time. I like the hubs, I like the regular Sonic stages, I like the totally brutal Sonic mini-levels, and I am even sort of enjoying the werehog stuff.

But most of the stuff you guys have really ripped on -- the evil later levels, the agony that hits when you don't have enough emblems -- are things I haven't happened to me yet. So every time I sit down to play some more, I'm just constantly waiting for the kick in the nuts, you know? Because if the game really does take a dramatic turn for the excruciating it's going to be extra disappointing now, because so far the only parts that have really annoyed me are any of the moments when Chip opens his mouth.

This is exactly where I am and how I feel. Did you enjoy the egg devil as much as I did? Especially when it enters an actually playable "bullet hell" sequence?

[gr4yJ4Y]

There's also the fact that I didn't have a salary and only a handful of games were available to me each year, but that limitation never really struck me because it never seemed like there was an unending stream of interesting games like it does today.

I had no idea what games cost when I was a kid. All I knew was that my parents would let me get vary few each year. I remember my mom saying, "You won't get Sonic & Knuckles for Christmas if you..." And that would mean I'd probably have to wait until the next Christmas to play it (unless one of my friends got it). So I did what I was told in the weeks before Christmas.

There also wasn't the internet. We can look up information for any game out. We can watch the entire game played out on YouTube without ever paying a dime for the game software. (Is Sonic Unleashed the first major Sonic title to have full playthroughs online within days of its release?)

Back then, I mostly chose my games by word-of-mouth or what was on the cover. Going through the selection of gaming covers at Toys "R" Us, I could tell which games interested me. I would mostly pick games with a character I liked or ones that had screenshots of platformers on the back. I would look at games with screenshots of overhead perspective and know that I probably didn't want to play those (as were my tastes at the time).

It seemed like there were a lot less good games out then because we didn't know about them. The closest we had to information on the games were gaming magazines. Looking back at my Sega Visions, there's more emphasize on behind-the-scenes, doing previews, and paying homage to games that were out in the way of things like fan art, letters, and contests, instead of a focus on reviews. Now we can get an approximation of the quality of the game before Billy from down the street has told us his hands-on impressions of his birthday gift.

And if not from "professional" sources, we can get someone's impressions from message boards and internet friends.

[Esrever]

This is exactly where I am and how I feel. Did you enjoy the egg devil as much as I did? Especially when it enters an actually playable "bullet hell" sequence?

Oh, totally! The Egg Beetle was pretty fantastic, too. The style of these fights is completely different from pretty much anything they've ever done before, but the formula that they've come up with really works well... especially how they utilize the new dash and quickstep moves. After the disaster that was Sonic Advance 2, I'm glad they've finally found a way to make high speed boss fights that are fun to play.

I really liked the werehog 's Phoenix boss, too.

[DackAttac]

After the disaster that was Sonic Advance 2, I'm glad they've finally found a way to make high speed boss fights that are fun to play.

I wanted to proclaim the concept of speed bosses fundamentally flawed after SAdv2, but I can't forget how utterly bitchin' Mushroom Hill's Act 2 boss was.

I'm happy to hear there are good bosses here. That was something Heroes and Shadow just totally missed the boat on. It was especially irritating in Heroes because there was this tone of build-up, but nothing ever got exciting. The levels just got meandering and boring, the boss fights didn't have anything going for them except total frustration, and even the plot pulled itself out of its own ass in the eleventh hour... haphazardly and disappointingly. Talk about your much ado about nothings.

[Owen Axel]

I have to wonder; is there anyone left who isn't sick to death of quicktime events in damn near every action platformer whatever-you-want-to-call-the-genre? It seems like one of the Wii version's strengths is that you don't have half the game's boss fights reduced to QTE-cycles instead of, oh I don't know, actual gameplay.

Using QTEs to access shortcuts and bonuses in levels was a clever idea, but they should've stopped there.

[(...)]

It kind of bums me out to hear about all the agony this game seems to be putting you guys through in its latter half. See, I'm still a lot further behind than all of you -- I've only done all the regular day/night stages in Apatos, Spagonia, Mazuri, Chun-An, and Holaska, plus a good chunk of the extra acts -- but god help me, I'm having a good time. I think I may even be having a great time. I like the hubs, I like the regular Sonic stages, I like the totally brutal Sonic mini-levels, and I am even sort of enjoying the werehog stuff.

I'm a tiny bit further ahead than this (I just completed the Shamar day level), and I haven't experienced any of the agony either. If anything, the game gets better as it progresses (so far!).

The Shamar day level in particular is an example of great level design. It's mostly 2D, it's hard as nails, and aside from a dodgy rail-jump halfway into the level, it's totally fair. No homing attacks firing you in the wrong direction or anything.

I initially hated the Sonic mini-levels (my fault for starting with the Holaska boost level), but they do get a lot better. Some of them are just cheap rather than brutal (e.g. the Apotos mini-level. Dead in one second if you don't jump as soon as Sonic says "go"). But most of them are absolutely intense. The chao gathering stage, the second Chun-nan stage, and the Spagonia side-scrolling-over-a-bottomless-pit stage are actual, genuine, legitimately bastard-hard 2D platforming.

The bosses are uniformally awesome so far. Even the werehog ones. I fought against the neon frost dragon a few hours ago and it was great.

I have no love for the hubs though. They're all choppy framerate and aimless talking with NPCs. :(

[Baba O'Riley]

It kind of bums me out to hear about all the agony this game seems to be putting you guys through in its latter half. See, I'm still a lot further behind than all of you -- I've only done all the regular day/night stages in Apatos, Spagonia, Mazuri, Chun-An, and Holaska, plus a good chunk of the extra acts -- but god help me, I'm having a good time. I think I may even be having a great time. I like the hubs, I like the regular Sonic stages, I like the totally brutal Sonic mini-levels, and I am even sort of enjoying the werehog stuff.

I'm a tiny bit further ahead than this (I just completed the Shamar day level), and I haven't experienced any of the agony either. If anything, the game gets better as it progresses (so far!).

Well, your mileage will vary with this game. I played it halfway through on my first rental and thought it was decent, then rented it again, beat it, and thought it was miserable.

[Locit]

I, too, am digging the bosses. Good to hear everyone else appreciates them as well. I beat the game proper the day before yesterday and now that it's been a while I'm back to enjoying the game. It's pretty awesome as long as I don't have to go anywhere near Eggmanland!

I have no love for the hubs though. They're all choppy framerate and aimless talking with NPCs. :(

N-not even Wentos?

Feeding chip a bunch of food gets you three secret CG movies. To spare everyone the trouble of bothering with Chip in any way, here they are.

[Ngangbius]

I have to wonder; is there anyone left who isn't sick to death of quicktime events in damn near every action platformer whatever-you-want-to-call-the-genre? It seems like one of the Wii version's strengths is that you don't have half the game's boss fights reduced to QTE-cycles instead of, oh I don't know, actual gameplay.

Using QTEs to access shortcuts and bonuses in levels was a clever idea, but they should've stopped there.

It's one of the reasons why I didn't like many of Werehog's bosses as nearly as much as Sonic's.

[Dash]

I love the attention to detail(Eggman's bots having the serial numbers MD1991 and DC1998? Love it!) and I got past a few things I probably wouldn't let them off the hook for next time 'round. What Shadow Hog is talking about is the concern I had over Sonic's controls. Theoretically, you should have more control when Sonic is moving slow, but I find that I get more sensible control when I'm moving fast! It's annoying, but I'm having a really good time in general (which is more than I've gotten from most console entries of late) so I let it slide.

This game really is garnering mixed impressions... I wonder, is that how it's going to be from here on for the franchise?

[Ngangbius]

So I just got to Eggmanland and what a piece of shit level that is.

This game really is garnering mixed impressions... I wonder, is that how it's going to be from here on for the franchise?

No more Werehog, buuuuut yet another new gimmick instead?

[Shadow Hog]

Given that the designer of Unleashed apparently is listening to the fans more than any of the prior producers for the past failures has, we could ask him to make Sonic run a bit slower, and maybe a bit more momentum-based? That'd handle the whole "inhuman distance" issue that's actually CAUSING all the gimmicks, because they'd no longer have to worry about making insanely lengthy levels to pad the game's length out. Sonic's speed being roughly what it was in the Genesis games, he'd probably take twenty minutes to clear some of the stages presented in Unleashed (maybe half that if the player knows what he's doing). Given that that's probably too long for any sane human being to ever play (although given the sheer length of Eggmanland, I'm under the impression that their definition of "sane" is in question), they could break that up into a few shorter levels. Shorter levels are infinitely easier to design, I'd imagine, and the lack of pressure to keep Sonic running forward at all times would allow for some more interesting level design and so on. Not to mention, given that shorter levels are easier to make, it'd be easier to make MORE of them, and pad it out to several hours of gameplay, as opposed to the few hours you'd get if you blew through them at Rush speeds. Plus, if the game was several hours long with just the core gameplay, why would there be any need for gimmicks?

Of course, all this is lost if the game lacks polish... Unleashed sure has a lot more of that than games prior, but Sonic's control needs to be tightened so much, it's not even funny. Also, they really need to stop abusing bottomless pits so goddamn much, and maybe have water NOT instantly drown Sonic anymore - the former, Unleashed is getting much better about (though hardly perfect), while it plays Sonic's super-drowning abilities straight (regrettably), and never looks back.

It's asking a bit much, honestly, but given that they're finally making their first step forward in a long time, maybe not completely impossible to hope for.

[Radrappy]

I know it would be one hell of a task, but in the old games, falling underwater just meant an alternative route that was oftentimes more difficult. I mean even sonic adventure 1 offered a few underwater segments that didn't kill you outright (Lost world comes to mind).

The problem with the gamespot review is that it suggests that underneath all the lack of polish and clumsy design issues, there isn't even a good game worth struggling for. I just don't think that's right at all.

[Baba O'Riley]

So I just got to Eggmanland and what a piece of shit level that is.

Verily.

No more Werehog, buuuuut yet another new gimmick instead?

Sonic grows wings.

[Dash]

Sonic grows fins, and becomes a Merhog.