Why I can't consider Sonic Battle Cannon

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chriscaffee
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Post by chriscaffee »

I really don't think he was 'designed' as a weapon. Why give a weapon free will and sympathy? Shadow made friends with Maria before Gerald allegedly gives him a heart. If you believe those memories of her were planted to make him seek revenge, then explain the presence of the 'Maria begging Shadow to save everyone' memory. It seems much more likely that his memories were tampered with, not fabricated, and the 'completion' of Shadow following the Ark incident (mentioned in the journals) refers to Gerald screwing with his mind.

Regardless, Shadow doesn't WANT to believe he has a soul. He wants to be a weapon with no hope of happiness and whatever. Sonic suggests that he's in denial. Maybe he's just antisocial and it's all an act to keep people away.

And thanks for at least tossing something up. You don't really need to have played the game; the quotes speak for themselves in regards to my grievances.
Shadow was originally designed as the Ultimate Lifeform. When Gerald went insane, he altered Shadow to become a weapon. That's how I've looked at it since SA2. That's why Eggman mentions that Shadow is a weapon in the first place.

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Post by Esrever »

I never entirely understood that. Gerald went insane because GUN shot Maria. But Gerald was arrested by GUN at the same time as Maria was shot, wasn't he? So when did he have the opportunity to alter Shadow?

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Dark Crow
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Post by Dark Crow »

I always assumed that when Gerald heard of Maria getting shot by GUN, he eluded their apprehension just long enough for him to be able to reprogram Shadow at the last minute. It doesn't make sense for GUN to give him access to alter the programming of ARK or Shadow after he was detained on Prison Island. But I could be mistaken, as I haven't played SA2 in a while.

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Post by Spazz »

Didn't Maria send Shadow down to Earth in a tube? What I'm saying is I doubt she could have done that if she got shot and Gerald couldn't have altared him if he wasn't even on the ARK.

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Post by j-man »

I think that was one of his false memory thingies. I don't think Shadow ever actually met Maria.

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chriscaffee
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Post by chriscaffee »

Well whether the Shadow the hedgehog we all know and despise met Maria is unknown, but it is stated that the ULF was entrusted to Maria in the 50 years Journal. Working under the assumption that Shadow TH is the ULF, then those memories couldn't be fabricated. Also, why would Gerald implant memories that would make Shadow rebel against his revenge plans?

I could have sworn that when Gerald was arrested, GUN wanted him to continue working on Shadow under their supervision. That's when he set his revenge plan in motion, then GUN freaked, locked up Shadow and killed Gerald.

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Post by Pepperidge »

Didn't it explain in one of the strategy guides that Shadow was aboard the ARK and sent out in an escape pod which was later recovered by GUN and then returned to Gerald?

Why they can't just explain something like that in the game is beyond me.

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chriscaffee
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Post by chriscaffee »

You mean this:
Sonic Adventure 2 The Truth about 50 Years ago...
From the: Sonic Adventure 2 Japanese Strategy Guide
Translation by: Koji Chao

----
The Truth about 50 Years ago...
-----

During my latest criminal investigation, I found secret information about Project Shadow through a Security Hole in GUN, and informed the President. It was a letter addressed to Professor Gerald from the President of its time, 13 Presidents ago, confidentially requesting him some new research. The subject of the letter is as follows.

"Mankind's ultimate eternal dream, researching for immortality."

Gerald had refused this request stubbornly, for it crossed over Man's limits. However (although ironically), in the end, Gerald's dearest granddaughter "Maria Robotnik" gave him a reason to look over the plans. Maria suffered from an illness "NIDS: Neuro immunodeficiency syndrome", by which medical treatment was difficult to provide. Although she seemingly could not expect recovery from this, medical treatment research was continued aboard the ARK, before they finally thought the incurable disease could be conquered because of Gerald's declaration of his new immortality studies. Advanced research was strictly confidential, inside the ARK. Records state, "Project Shadow" was named this because of the sarcasm involved in not actually being able to create a Shadow (Which didn't exist in the world).

At first, everyone thought that this plan was far too reckless and far-fetched to have ever been fabricated by Professor Gerald's gifted mind. Chaos Emeralds were researched and resulted in the creation of Chaos Drives, which were a test to apply their infinite energy to a life, while the main project would only be started once the prototype was complete. The "Prototype of the Ultimate Life-form", made after the image of a lizard, showed many signs of wonderful growth. Regeneration, restoration, and self-reproduction(*1). The researchers were thrilled at this.

But, while their joy of how well the Prototype was doing quickly went to their heads, it became unruly and hard to control causing many problems. A voice of doubt soon arose, as they questioned their continuation on this project, as well as the safety of others aboard(*2). The truth is uncertain, about who had leaked private information about the Project to GUN, however it was considered to have been one of the few who were concerned with the Prototype, as it became reckless.

Those who were among the top ranking of GUN, had a strong disliking of the research organization, and formulated a plan to shut down the ARK itself, taking advantage of its current situation. Their secret plan was code named, "ARK's Indestructible Seal(*3)"

All of the colony's residents were to be evacuated from a bio hazardous calamity generated from within the ARK research institution, and it would be sealed away. This was their ostensible(*4) purpose of the strategy. Of course, the true purpose was to close the ARK research facility, erase Project Shadow, and put the blame to Professor Gerald as the person who had caused the accident.

The plan was carried out, on the premiss that GUN knew nothing, and within only seven days of the Plan's commencing, all the residents of the ARK were moved to the planet. All the research facilities aboard the ARK were frozen by GUN, and all persons involved in Project Shadow, except for Professor Gerald, were announced as victims of the disaster. The plan was finally completed, when the "Prototype of the Ultimate Lifeform" was found, and then sealed away in the deepest part of the Colony.

But, there was miscalculation in their plan. It seemed Professor Gerald was already finishing off the Ultimate Lifeform "Shadow"(*5), but using another desirable form, when the plan was being executed. When GUN's Special Forces rushed into the research institute, Gerald escaped, and entrusted it to Maria, his granddaughter, checking to make sure that the one escape capsule was ejected toward the planet(*6). (In addition, the whereabouts of the capsule at that time were not known, either.)

Now, it is not known if the hedgehog "Shadow the Hedgehog", being the "Shadow" that was sealed away in Prison Island, was a copy created by someone else(*7), or was the original "Shadow" that was ejected toward the planet. (There is no real way to confirm this anywhere...)
~ A partial excerpt from the last investigative report by Rouge, about Project Shadow ~


---
(*Footnotes*)

*1: The Biolizard was able to take damage, and heal itself, regenerate any lost limbs, like a lizard, and it could reproduce asexually (The pink Eggs Shadow 'Homing Attack's on). Unfortunatelly, it required it's Life Support System, fuel by Chaos Drives, to continue.

*2: The Biolizard reacted violently when it had the power of the Chaos Emeralds.

*3: Ehh, not too sure on the ACTUAL name on this. ^_^; So, it might be off...

*4: Ostensible: The 'Good guy Image' GUN was trying to convey, making the public think they were doing the right thing, when they had ulterior motives.

*5: "Shadow" was created durring the week GUN's plan was executed, so he never knew about the Prototype, or the destructive powers it possesed.

*6: Gerald had told Maria to escape with Shadow, and ran in the opposite direction to draw unwanted attention away from the two. He looked at a monitor/out a window, to see the capsule leaving the colony.

*7: The text mentions an 'Original piece' of Shadow.

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Post by Crazy Penguin »

I think it was supposed to be a selling point for the guide, I wouldn't be surprised if Sonic Team left it purposely vague and ambiguous in game for this purpose.

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Post by Frieza2000 »

Here's my take on Shadow:

After Maria ejects him from the Ark, he's immediately captured by GUN. But Gerald ISN'T. In fact, he still works for them as one of their top scientists; there's no reason to confine him. It's back to business as usual. But not for Gerald. He finds out his employers killed Maria and goes insane. He begins his plotting and writes up all the code or whatever required to reprogram Shadow. He writes his final journal entry and leaves it for Eggman to find. He sneaks into the area with Shadow (security was probably lighter than when Eggman stormed through since there was no emerald to wake Shadow up anyway) and shoves a chunk of info into Shadow's head that'll kick in when he wakes up. Of course he's quickly noticed and captured. Working for a secret organization, you don't really get much of a second chance when you do something wrong. He's briefly interrogated, during which he makes that 'I plan to give you a taste of my revenge' speech, and executed. On a side note, the recording of the execution had to be broadcast from the Ark by Shadow. How can someone program a video of their own death to play? So while we’re at it, we can say Shadow programmed the Ark to crash when the last emerald was placed and do all the other weird stuff it did.

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Post by The Doc »

I was going to include a spoilers thing, but I forgot. But shouldn't you have stopped reading once you saw me quoting the game?
Hell, no. Now I don't have to play the fucking game. That's why I said "Thanks a fucking lot!". I meant that.

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Post by Nova »

Knuckles could listen to the Radio or read newspapers sometimes…he has a LOT of free time after all. And miy personal view of Knuckles is that he just pretend to be cheated by Eggman so he can kick Sonic ass. If he loses he can pretend he was "tricked again" and be Sonic pal until the next chance he has to fight Sonic.

The master emerald was cut in pieces with a laser…so why don’t do it with the other emeralds?. They automatically fix when you put all the pieces together!. At least the master Emerald did..

You are asking why we like this script, cause is funny like a Samurai pizza cats episode!. And it doesn’t make sense, it just need the characters saying it doesn’t make sense to be perfect.

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Post by The Doc »

I miss the eighties sometimes. Back then, 98% of all games had the exact same plot: "The princess has been rescued, go from left to right, save her."

Now, every game has got to be these movie-quality projects, and games like Sonic Battle ruin the games with good plots. Plot-wise, Sonic Battle makes Showgirls look like The Godfather.

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Post by Baba O'Reily »

The Doc wrote:I miss the eighties sometimes. Back then, 98% of all games had the exact same plot: "The princess has been rescued, go from left to right, save her."

Now, every game has got to be these movie-quality projects, and games like Sonic Battle ruin the games with good plots. Plot-wise, Sonic Battle makes Showgirls look like The Godfather.
"We'll give her an offer she can't refuse..." Insert sticking of 50 dollar bill in G-String here.

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Post by CE »

The Doc wrote:I miss the eighties sometimes. Back then, 98% of all games had the exact same plot: "The princess has been rescued, go from left to right, save her."
What I wouldn't give for a Mario game where that is the plot. You'd play as Bowser and try to kidnap Peach and force her to marry you. Bad guy games are awesome I tell you, AWESOME!

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Post by Frieza2000 »

The Doc wrote:Hell, no. Now I don't have to play the fucking game. That's why I said "Thanks a fucking lot!". I meant that.
Then why did you shove a bear up my dick? That wasn't very nice.

A minor addition of the above: I don't go along with what that strategy guide says because it doesn't explain why the military keeps Shadow locked up for 50 years instead of terminating him with Gerald. Especially considering that it claims the project was shut down in fear of the research.
chriscaffee wrote:Shadow was originally designed as the Ultimate Lifeform. When Gerald went insane, he altered Shadow to become a weapon. That's how I've looked at it since SA2. That's why Eggman mentions that Shadow is a weapon in the first place.
Following my above theory, I'd explain this one of two ways, since Gerald obviously wouldn't have enough time to add such major things. Either the military had stepped into the ULF project midway and forced them to make it function as a weapon(could explain Biolizard's power), or Shadow's destructive abilities are just a part of being 'ultimate', and whatever Eggman read that called him a "Top secret millitary weapon" was written by someone who considered that to be Shadows purpose (the insane Gerald or the military, who would've have bothered keeping him around unless they planned to use him as a last resort weapon). Why didn't the military terminate Shadow after Gerald tampered with it? I'm gonna say they never found out exactly what he did, so they just left it.

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Post by Double-S- »

Frieza2000 wrote:I don't go along with what that strategy guide says because it doesn't explain why the military keeps Shadow locked up for 50 years instead of terminating him with Gerald. Especially considering that it claims the project was shut down in fear of the research.
Please, it's the military. They come across a superweapon, no way they're going to destroy it.

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Post by chriscaffee »

He speaks the truth, remember what they did with the Ark of the Covenant.

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Post by Zeta »

He speaks the truth, remember what they did with the Ark of the Covenant.
That movie had one of the worst endings EVER. Indiana Jones could've basically stayed home and the ending would've been exactly the same.

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Post by Delphine »

Actually, the Ark of the Covenant is in Lara Croft's secret room.

...what?

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Post by Tsuyoshi-kun »

Frieze2000 wrote:23 posts later, I still haven't heard anybody defend this game. Was I wrong when I said most of you liked it?
Um...I liked the 3-D arenas. They were neat. And it was nice to see a handheld Sonic game ACTUALLY MADE BY Sonic Team. But really, it was repetitive. Smash Bros. was limited, but had enough diversity in its characters to be fun (at least the original; the sequel suffers from more clone-itis than the Street Fighter Zero series).

Plus, raising that robot took fucking forever.

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Post by muke »

The final quote at the end of Battle being something stupid that Tails says is not an unrelated incident, He's been doing this ever since SA1! Let's take a look at some of them, shall we?

SA1
After the fight with Chaos, the world is destroyed with water coming out from every crack in every building, hippie bitch, I mean Tikal, has just acended up into the master emerald that's up in the sky somewhere, and even Robotnik just came up, looked at the devestation around him, and said "fuck this shit" and flew away. After an eternity of silence, Sonic says something, and then Tails, in his infinite wisdom, voices this response:

TAILS: "All's well that ends well, right, Sonic?"

At this point, even Sonic sees the idoicy in Tails' statement and runs off to go hang out with more intelligent people.

SA2
Shadow has just fallen out of the sky and into deep space (or into a flaming fireball into the Earth depending on the gravitational pull that day) and everybody is reflecting on how great the punk was while the credits roll. Knuckles and Rouge have some nice words to say about him (or at least Knuckles does since Rouge immediately changes the topic into one about jewlery, which she harps on obsessively), then the camera cuts to a shot of Tails and Robotnik looking out the window into the eternal darkness. Robotnik first starts this memorable dialoge by saying something to the effect of "I would like to know more about what my grandfather did." In a normal social situation, one would listen to what the last person just said and then respond with something that is on topic and adds to the conversation, but oh no, not Tails! This statement goes in one fox ear and out the other as Tails manages to concoct these words based upon what Robotnik said:

TAILS: "At least we know one thing for sure, we all did it together!"

Seriously, WTF did that statement come from? Everybody else in the room had something solem to say that attributed to the fact that this great tragedy just happened and Tails is able to make this into a good thing about teamwork!? Seems like a little too much forshadowing to the crapfest that is Sonic Heroes to me, and speaking of which, I'm pretty sure that Tails says something stupid at the end of that game too, but I found Heroes too stupid in itself to finish since I had better things to do with my time, like dressing up like a little boy and going to Neverland Ranch!

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Post by Frieza2000 »

Double-S- wrote:
Frieza2000 wrote:I don't go along with what that strategy guide says because it doesn't explain why the military keeps Shadow locked up for 50 years instead of terminating him with Gerald. Especially considering that it claims the project was shut down in fear of the research.
Please, it's the military. They come across a superweapon, no way they're going to destroy it.
But wasn't the whole reason they shut the project down in the first place because the creatures were too powerful? Besides, according to that article the millitary didn't even know that Shadow was in development (only Biolizard). Wouldn't they just shoot it on sight like everything else?
muke wrote:hippie bitch, I mean Tikal, has just acended up into the master emerald that's up in the sky somewhere
What gave you that idea? I assumed that they just passed into heaven or whatever.
muke wrote:After an eternity of silence, Sonic says something
No he doesn't.
muke wrote:Knuckles and Rouge have some nice words to say about him (or at least Knuckles does since Rouge immediately changes the topic into one about jewlery
The first thing spoken is Knuckles asking if Rouge is going to continue hunting jewels. She says no, and that she's quitting the agent business.
muke wrote:Robotnik first starts this memorable dialoge by saying something to the effect of "I would like to know more about what my grandfather did."
It was actually more like "I looked up to my grandfather. Did he really mean to kill us?"


Not to nitpick, I just thought I'd correct you.

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Nova
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Post by Nova »

Well, Sonic Adventure 2 has its flaws and so does Sonic battle. Maybe Tails said stupid things because he is ironic.

The “We all did this togetherâ€￾ is funny.

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Post by Crazy Penguin »

Tsuyoshi-kun wrote:And it was nice to see a handheld Sonic game ACTUALLY MADE BY Sonic Team.
I'm pretty sure that most of the work was done by Jupiter Corp.

I liked the plot, dialogue and characterisations a lot, but the game itself was definitely subpar. It's hard to pull of fighting games on handheld systems, especially ones that try to be pseudo-3D. I wouldn't mind seeing a Game Cube sequel though, it could be fun if done right, though would probably end up a blatant and inferior Smash Bros clone. I got the impression that G-merl (from Sonic Advance 3) was only created to be a ready and set up replacement for Emerl if Sonic Battle warranted a sequel.

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