Re: Revenge of the nerds
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:22 am
I just noticed that I didn't use spoiler tags. If we need to delete my last post, feel free to do so. I've saved its text.
He probably tossed them there for safe keeping, assuming Sonic would never be able to find or retrieve them.chriscaffee wrote:Knuckles ambushes Sonic and takes the Chaos Emeralds which also quickly retreat to the Special Stage.
It's possible. However, also keep in mind that there is plenty of "Angel Island" mass below sea level as well. The island isn't a Frisbee with a few mountains on top, it also has rocky formations below the sea level parts. My assumption is that the "Hydrocity" ruins are part of Angel Island, likely flooded, due to it being in the ocean. Now, it is possible that they are distinct from Angel Island, similar to the Newtrogic High Zone. But also something to keep in mind is that in Sonic Mania the Tornado is parked somewhere in Angel Island Zone. After you finish Hydrocity, Sonic, Tails & Knuckles are seen on the Tornado flying to West Side Island. So, if Hydrocity is just a set of ruins that Angel Island just happened to land on in Sonic 3, then it just happened to land on the exact same set in Sonic Mania. It's possible.Opa-Opa wrote:Man, what a huge thread.
Just bringing something to the table here that I always thought about the layout of Angel Island. What if Hydrocity Zone was deep in the ocean, under and outside the Floating Island? That always made sense to me considering that when Sonic and Tails arrive at the Angel Island Zone they are at sea level, and there's not much vertical movement in that stage.
I agree that the plain reading of Christian's tweet indicates this. The problem I have with it is...why? Did Knuckles carve these statues? Perhaps. Or he had a friend on Angel Island do it. At first I couldn't understand why Knuckles would memorialize the Super Emeralds, but perhaps it was because they were related to the fulfillment of the dragon prophecy. I suppose if Knuckles had been studying the murals and legends as guardian of Angel Island, Eggman's defeat in The Doomsday Zone could have had special meaning for him. It also suddenly occurs to me that "doom" is just a really negative way of saying "fate". When keeping that context in mind "The Doomsday Zone" is basically "the place of the fateful day" which is a cool connection to the whole event being prophesied, because, again, we see that battle on the Hidden Palace mural. So it's not just a catchy name for "Eggman is trying to destroy the world with the Master Emerald" but that that specific battle was predetermined. I think the connection to the mural was always obvious, but I never really paid the name of the stage much mind. It could just be coincidence, but it ties into the prophecy idea very well.Chris, you've got the start of something there. I didn't see a good way to make that work at first - my immediate impression was that they had to be memorial statues.
The meta answer is that Sonic Team made a decision, for the sake of consistency for the Chaos Emeralds to always be brilliant cut and seven in number. I know we are discussing fan theories, and this sort of meta reasoning isn't helpful, but in this case, it's something to keep in mind because the Chaos Emeralds do appear to be different all the time. In Sonic 1 they are octagonal, in Sonic 2 they are hexagons and in Sonic 3 they are pentagons. But we KNOW the Chaos Emeralds from Sonic 3 are intended to be the same as from Sonic 2. (Unless the first set of emeralds Sonic collects are actually the Angel Island set...) So we know the emeralds are very inconsistent in the classic games. We can either hand wave that and say "yeah but they are all supposed to be the same" and therefore the changes in size and shape are meaningless, or we can say that changes in side and shape are significant story elements and analyze them accordingly. Sonic Team isn't going to ever write a story bible explaining the inconsistencies between the games. They don't care. So the size and shape of the emeralds in Sonic Adventure...could be ignored as not significant. Or it could be important. But that's entirely up to personal preference.1) Why do the Chaos Emeralds take the shape of the Super Emeralds from that day on, and why did they have that shape 1000 years ago?
I always interpreted the glowing Master Emerald as less about whether it was powering up the Super Emeralds and more that it had attained "harmony." The Master Emerald (I believe) glows in the past in Sonic Adventure, because everything is the way it should be, until the Knuckle Clan attacks and then it is dark and no longer glowing. In the present it glows initially, but once broken it no longer does until it is completed. Then once again, it stops glowing when Angel Island falls during the Super Sonic story, because something is out of balance. In Sonic 3 & Knuckles, when Sonic restores the Super Emeralds, the Master Emerald starts glowing because everything is the way it is supposed to be. The glowing is just the Master Emerald's way of saying "everything is cool."2) Why was the Master Emerald glowing after the Super Emeralds were empowered?
And Super Sonic also doesn't have Hyper Sonic's double jump. However, you might be onto something here with the modern Super forms being Hyper forms. But that's not quite it. I think the modern Super forms are Diet Hyper forms. So, back in ancient times we have the Chaos Emeralds. The emeralds are then split into two weaker sets. In S3K, Sonic reunites them and they get a boost from the gods/Master Emerald to become Super Emeralds, temporarily allowing Sonic & Knuckles to access Hyper transformations. After the events of S3K, the "Super Emeralds", which are now considered to be the "Chaos Emeralds" for every other game from here on out, vanish into the Special Stage dimension. The stone relics were then created to commemorate the event. Now these "Super Emeralds" are still very powerful, more powerful than they were when they were divided, but they don't quite have that boost to make them "Super Emeralds" anymore. But, since they are more powerful...so are the Super forms. Sonic & Knuckles can't breathe underwater and don't have screen clearing area of effect attacks, but they are faster and stronger than their classic Super forms. For instance, you get the "after images" in Sonic Mania and in Sonic Adventure 2 as Super Sonic when you are moving at maximum speed, which previously only appeared for Hyper forms. So I think you are right that Modern Super Sonic is definitely more powerful than Classic Super Sonic, but I don't know that he is as powerful as Hyper Sonic.Mania still contributes to the fusion theory, though. I had previously favored the idea that the new diamond shaped emeralds are in fact the Super Emeralds and that modern Super forms are actually Hyper forms, just without the seizure-inducing coloration, but Mania supports your prior theory that the Master Emerald had boosted them into Super Emeralds because Super Tails does not have the flickies and Super Knuckles does not kill all enemies on screen when he glides into a wall.
This is possible. Perhaps the stone relics are a sort of "cocoon" of Super Emerald energy that was converted to solid matter when the "Super Emeralds"/Chaos Emeralds returned to the special stage.The idea of stone relics appearing in place of the Super Emeralds when they returned to the Special Stage kind of reminds me of the way that the energy of the Pillar solidified into the Chaos Rings within the space of the Hyper Ring portals in the Chaotix manual, but these relics don't appear to be made of energy so that probably doesn't apply.
It probably is coincidence, but I dig it!chriscaffee wrote:When keeping that context in mind "The Doomsday Zone" is basically "the place of the fateful day" which is a cool connection to the whole event being prophesied, because, again, we see that battle on the Hidden Palace mural. So it's not just a catchy name for "Eggman is trying to destroy the world with the Master Emerald" but that that specific battle was predetermined. I think the connection to the mural was always obvious, but I never really paid the name of the stage much mind. It could just be coincidence, but it ties into the prophecy idea very well.
I have been searching for this term for so long.chriscaffee wrote:brilliant cut
It's easy to write off the changes between games as mere design changes, and that's naturally what I did until I came to the Hidden Palace scene. To have different shapes between games, or even between different menus and game modes within the same game, is something easily dismissed. But to show two different shaped emeralds in the same game mode within seconds of each other in a cut scene strongly calls attention to it. Even if they are separate emeralds and it's not showing a transformation, it definitely gets you thinking about the fact that we never see those roundish emeralds in any game ever again, and not just nerds like us who think way too hard about these things. The mural in SA1 is more easily overlooked, but the attention to detail in that game was impressive enough that I give it weight. I do honestly think there was intent, at least by someone at some point, to show that the Chaos Emeralds canonically changed shape in Hidden Palace. Whoever they were (Oshima/Naka?) they are obviously long gone and nobody involved seems interested in coming back to the issue. Except Headcannon, I guess. Anyway, I think we're pretty much on the same page again.chriscaffee wrote:So we know the emeralds are very inconsistent in the classic games. We can either hand wave that and say "yeah but they are all supposed to be the same" and therefore the changes in size and shape are meaningless, or we can say that changes in side and shape are significant story elements and analyze them accordingly.
I think the best explanation is that the gods created them as a way of erecting the middle finger at Iizuka for not allowing Whitehead to include actual Super Emeralds. Also, they really help pull the room together.chriscaffee wrote:The reason I came up with the Super Emeralds being a separate set was because I couldn't rationalize in my head Knuckles having fake Super Emerald statues commissioned for a palace that only four people know about.
No, it doesn't. That's whats difficult about it. It doesn't glow in the past at any point, but in the present it's always glowing, even when it's broken. More details halfway down page 2 of this thread.chriscaffee wrote:The Master Emerald (I believe) glows in the past in Sonic Adventure
Does anyone know if super forms can breath underwater in Mania? I was going to check myself but I still haven't gotten a second sitting with the game and my Googling last month suggested that nobody else was even curious.chriscaffee wrote:And Super Sonic also doesn't have Hyper Sonic's double jump.
You know, I think I've been so disinterested in Generations that the absurdity of this has never occurred to me.chriscaffee wrote:For that matter, is Sonic Generations? Did Sonic, in the middle of a play through of Sonic 1, get warped from South Island, to West Side Island (Chemical Plant), then to Little Planet (Stardust Speedway), then to Angel Island as the Death Egg is taking off (Sky Sanctuary) and then back in time to the Death Egg before it was destroyed at the end of Sonic 2? Then proceed through all the modern stages until being returned to...what, the Marble Zone? And where does that leave the time-displaced classic Eggman who was recruited...I guess at the climax of Sonic 2? But "classic Tails" is present in Sonic Generations...but Sonic was abducted in Green Hill Zone on South Island...before he met Tails...or is the implication that this is "classic Sonic" but after the classic games and he just happened to be in Green Hill Zone at the time, and he was time traveling through his recent history, (and then future) and not just entirely traveling through the future?
Several nods from Sonic Mania imply that they are!Dr. BUGMAN wrote:If we are to consider StF and the GG games as canon
It's probably just an artistic way of showing the 5 emeralds being scattered. A few Chaos Emeralds break in Sonic Battle, but that's the only time I'm aware of.Dr. BUGMAN wrote:Oh, and speaking of G Sonic, its intro shows the 5 emeralds splitting from a single, larger emerald.
The NiGHTS pinball machine suggests that either the game NiGHTs into Dreams exists in Sonic's world or Nightopia exists. It could be a separate thing from Maginary World, but I grouped them because I was trying be conservative with my count just to show that you don't have to nitpick to get a really high number.Wombatwarlord777 wrote:Minor nitpick, but is there really anything to suggest that Nightopia / Maginary World are the same thing aside from the NiGHTS cameo?
The graphical style is different, and we've never seen Beanville make another appearance, but there's nothing strictly preventing it from being part of the Classic world. Same with Spinball, despite SatAM cameos.Wombatwarlord777 wrote:1) The world in which Mean Bean Machine takes place. Apparently it's just the setting of Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog in a videogame medium.
In at least some of these cases, you could say that Eggman pulled the same scheme twice. Certainly the Game Gear games are generic enough plots to be repeated. For the others, it's possible one game takes place in the Modern world and the other in a future version of the Classic world, or even in the 06 world.Wombatwarlord777 wrote:2) The "alternative worlds" in which the handheld rather than the console version of a game takes place (Sonic 1, Sonic Colors, Sonic Generations, Sonic Lost World, debatably Sonic 2).
I grouped that under #8 with all of the other void worlds, though I'd forgotten that you actually go there in the first Rush.Wombatwarlord777 wrote:4) The space between Sonic and Blaze's world where the final battle of Sonic Rush takes place.
None of that is a real barrier. (A) can be written off as a game design choice, (B) is just Eggman trying something different that didn't work out, and putting the majority of the side games between S&K and Sonic Adventure makes perfect sense. Prior to Heroes, where he decides to give up his day job and become a roadie, Knuckles has no interest in what Eggman does so long as he keeps it off his island. He doesn't like or even really trust Sonic until SA2, so why would you expect him to get involved in something as trivial as rescuing Tails? The only games that don't fit this pattern are Triple Trouble, where Eggman actively solicited his help (probably by having Metal Sonic impersonate Sonic and harass him), Sonic the Fighters, where Knuckles somehow ended up with one of 8 Chaos Emeralds (along with Amy, so, I dunno, the emerald fairy left it under their pillow?), leading Sonic to fly up to Angel Island and take it from him, and the racing games, where his participation can be taken as a type of revenge against Sonic for that time he beat him up and stole the emerald he had gotten from the emerald fairy.Dr. BUGMAN wrote:It can't happen after on account of, a, no spindash, b, the most inchoate Mecha Sonic ever, and, c, just how many games can you sandwhich between S2 16bit and S3 before you break credibility in half. Was Knuckles just standing around with his thumb up his cloaca waiting for someone -- anyone -- to give him the 411???
I'm telling you, Metal Sonic flew up to Angel Island and mooned Knuckles. This reignited his hatred for Sonic to such a degree that he not only abandoned the Master Emerald with no way of returning to the island, but he even went so far as to bring Eggman 6 Chaos Emeralds and trick him into building a doomsday weapon to kill Sonic, thus setting the events of the game in motion.Wombatwarlord777 wrote:Knuckles being brainwashed or blackmailed in Sonic & Tails 2 is the only way I can reconcile that game with the rest of the series.
I don't know about any of the other titles, but you could argue that both versions of Sonic 1 focus on separate events taking place during the same overall story. In the "complete" version of Sonic 1, Sonic travels through 8 distinct areas of South Island, trashes Scrap Brain Zone, and finally confronts Eggman as he attempts to flee via the Sky Base.big_smile wrote:Then again with Mania's big reference to them, we might seem the Mania team work the Game Gear titles more into the classic continuity.
Fast-paced platforming across colorful locales, with a strong female playable character to act as Sonic's foil.What was the hook in Rush Adventure? (It's been a while since I've played either of these games, so I don't remember).
For some reason, I've always had the impression that Tails Adventures takes place way before Sonic ever met Tails. Like, years before the events of Sonic 2. I suppose if you consider Sonic CD to take place between Sonic 1 and 2, then Tails Adventure could still take place before Tails and Sonic first met.Dr. Bugman wrote:(My headcanon for G Sonic is that it is concurrent with Skypatrol, much like Tails Adventures is with Sonic CD [to rationalize why the Battle Kukku gave up after a single attempt])
It's not a sequel hook properly speaking, but I think it's pretty obvious that Dimps's writers intended this as a tease of the next game they wanted to do, the end of what would have been the Rush trilogy, but instead they got saddled doing the portable version of Colors and have been making handheld ports ever since. On the one hand I'm glad it didn't happen because the Master Emerald already fills the god role just fine, but on the other hand I'm curious where they would have gone with that.The Sonic Rush Adventure ending wrote: Blaze: So, this craft uses the power of both sets of Emeralds?
Tails: Yeah. The energy acts to form a sort of tunnel between this world and our world.
Blaze: Hmmm. So, then, the Chaos Emeralds and the Sol Emeralds are...
Sonic: ...sort of like North and South on a magnet.
Blaze: If they have the power to repel each other, they can attract each other, too.
Sonic: And if misused, they could potentially bring ruin to both worlds.
Blaze: Right. That's what the Eggmen were both saying.
Sonic: So, then, how do you prevent that from happening, Tails?
Tails: Well, I haven't done anything special in particular. They're both extremely stable. Because of that, I was able to put this ship together in such a short time.
Blaze: What do you mean?
Tails: Well, I got to thinking... Doesn't it seem like the Emeralds are trying to help us?
Sonic: Chaos Emeralds...?
Blaze: ...and the Sol Emeralds?
Tails: Yeah. If they weren't, I don't think they'd be nearly as stable as they are. It's almost as if they WANT to be used to do this.
Sonic: Trying to help us... Huh...
Blaze: Hmph.
Tails: I'm going to get us ready to launch soon, Sonic. [Walks away]
Sonic: Thanks, Tails. By the way, Blaze, what happened to the scepter?
Blaze: Ah, yes, the Jeweled Scepter. It's been returned to its altar, under even heavier guard than before. It's safe.
Sonic: Oh, good. That's a relief.
Blaze: Sonic...
Sonic: Huh?
Blaze: Do you think that maybe you were brought here for a reason?
Sonic: Brought here? By who?
Blaze: By the Emeralds.
Sonic (mouth agape): ... ...
Sonic (smiling): ... ...
Sonic (thumbs up): Heh, well, you never know.
Well, not to retread a prior point, but yeah. SCD is the notable game featuring both Sonic and Eggman but not a single CE*, leaving them to be poached by the opportunistic Battle Kukku, who probably fear Eggman's greater forces and the growing coalition of heroes. Tails Adventures is explicitly a prequel to MD S2, so it makes even more sense to make SCD one too among its many other reasons.Wombatwarlord777 wrote:For some reason, I've always had the impression that Tails Adventures takes place way before Sonic ever met Tails. Like, years before the events of Sonic 2. I suppose if you consider Sonic CD to take place between Sonic 1 and 2, then Tails Adventure could still take place before Tails and Sonic first met.
I had also assumed that Tails Skypatrol was also set years prior to the Genesis games, although looking at the museum page now that definitely can't be right.