Revenge of the nerds

Speak your mind, or lack thereof. There may occasionally be on-topic discussions.
User avatar
chriscaffee
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:43 am

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by chriscaffee »

I'm not following. What is it about the Adventure world that would've prohibited something like Casino Park or Bingo Highway from existing? Casinopolis had giant (virtual?) pinball machines that used Sonic as the ball. That doesn't seen any less fantastic or ridiculous.
I'm with you on this point. A giant Pinball board that literally transports you to Nightopia?! Or how about the Twinkle Circuit? You know, because in Twinkle Park they fit a giant race track in space, suspended high above Station Square where you fall for miles and die. But remember, couples get in free.
Yeah, but during the Super Sonic story, Tikal sends Sonic into a vision right in front of Tails and Knuckles. When he wakes up, Tails says he "just sort of conked out," not disappeared. Maybe while Tails was dreaming he was also wandering around in the present, sort of sleep walking, and picked up the badge in some random place. I mean, he does wake up somewhere other than were he was when the vision started.
Yes, but Tikal directly talks to E-102 in the past, with no knowledge of who he is...meaning that either it's an "interactive vision" that changes based on who is having it, or Gamma really was at the altar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjQxU02hf_k

11:30 minutes in.
I've never played Chronicles, but I remember what I heard of it having a bunch of little continuity issues, as though Bioware had taken all of their research from Wikipedia. Even GreenGibbon didn't consider it canon at the time. And it ended on a cliffhanger that was never picked up, so I just ignore it.
Actually it looks like Sonic Project 2017 might have picked it up. :D
Good point about the shrine island floating even when the main island is down, but it DID have half of the Master Emerald still on it, and it was glowing (I think) so it wasn't dead, so it might've had enough power to prevent the shrine from falling off into the sea.
That's a fair point. The ME is still partially there. And it's able to show Knuckles where the remaining pieces are even when it is incomplete, so it clearly has power, even when broken.
If this came out of their imagination rather than some prophet's mystic foresight then it's a pretty huge coincidence that they got the robot's appearance right.
So you've got the meteorites, then Eggman, then Hyper/Super Sonic. What is that strange arm underneath? I've always wondered that.
I think I see what you're doing to locate Hidden Palace (we know that Lava Reef 2 is between it and Lava Reef 1, which is presumably in the vicinity of the volcano), but here's a source I don't think you considered. We can see the Death Egg's face from both Lava Reef and Hidden Palace.
I basically considered Lava Reef 1/2/Hidden Palace to be all the same cave network inside that volcano.
I'm not even sure of this. Sandopolis doesn't have echidna faces either.
They do in the vicinity of Eggman's Hidden Base in Sonic Adventure 2.
Maybe it's because everything else sort of resembles a real-life civilization, whereas it looks very futuristic. Which reminds me...Where are we standing?!?!
Sky Sanctuary Zone is to the south of Angel Island. Remember when Sonic gets there the Death Egg launching is in the background. The Death Egg launched from basically just above HPZ, where Sonic was before he telaported. Now it is very far away. In Knuckles' game, since the Island is already in the sky, instead of seeing the Death Egg in the background, we see Angel Island. As you progress through SSZ, you get closer to where the Death Egg is in the distance, so who knows how large the SSZ really is? Maybe it's "The Land of the Sky?" MIND BLOWN. J/K
Another addition to my list of god activity: Raising Neutrogic High Zone and restoring it to a lush green paradise. This may have been by accident; the manual says it was a result of the Pillar's energy rather than the gods or the Master Emerald itself. All it accomplished in the immediate sense was to give Eggman a way to access the Pillar and create the Chaos Rings, unless the island is the same thing as Station Square+Mystic Ruin, in which case it was part of the setup for the events designed to put Chaos+Tikal to rest.
I think it mentions it was a result of Angel Island being pushed into the ocean during Sonic 3. My interpretation was that because Angel Island was pushed out of the sky, it was "close enough" to the ruins that would become Neutrogic High Zone for the pillar to "react with them" in someway, causing the rapid growth of the new island.
Also, I just watched the end and the moon isn't missing a chunk from the eclipse cannon.
It's not even missing in Sonic Heroes. In the haunted castle level the moon is XBOX-HUGE and perfect. Either they are going with the Sonic X explanation that it was repaired somehow, or we are always looking at the other side of it...somehow...

User avatar
Frieza2000
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:09 am
Now Playing: the fool
Location: confirmed. Sending supplies.

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Frieza2000 »

So you've got the meteorites, then Eggman, then Hyper/Super Sonic. What is that strange arm underneath? I've always wondered that.
Well, the Doomsday robot did have two arms. In one hand it's got the Master Emerald, showing that he's stolen it, and with the other hand he's preparing to fight Sonic. If it were just Sonic doing a sunburst in front of the robot and all it was doing was clutching the emerald, that might not have conveyed as clearly that this is depicting a battle.
They do in the vicinity of Eggman's Hidden Base in Sonic Adventure 2.
Ah, right. Man, they got around. If not a separate tribe, it could've been a separate race that the Knuckle Clan conquered and they decided to keep the buildings, with a few slight modifications to the decorations.
Remember when Sonic gets there the Death Egg launching is in the background. The Death Egg launched from basically just above HPZ, where Sonic was before he telaported. Now it is very far away.
No, look at those screenshots again. The Death Egg was directly above Lava Reef 2. In Hidden Palace, it's about as far away from us as it is when it launches in Sky Sanctuary (going by the size of the eyes, maybe a mile further than that), so this part of the sanctuary seems to be nearly above where we just were. Knuckles's level could be in a different part of it (as you said, Sonic starts far away from the DE and ends up grabbing onto it so it covers a good distance)...but Knuckles is MILES away from the island! What is this platform? Is the Master Emerald holding it up too? Or is this something Eggman Robo hijacked?
I think it mentions it was a result of Angel Island being pushed into the ocean during Sonic 3. My interpretation was that because Angel Island was pushed out of the sky, it was "close enough" to the ruins that would become Neutrogic High Zone for the pillar to "react with them" in someway, causing the rapid growth of the new island.
Yeah, that seems to be it. Either it let that happen on purpose, or the Master Emerald is...an imprecise instrument. Maybe that's why Tikal got sealed; she just got caught up in Chaos's sealing.
It's not even missing in Sonic Heroes.
Hm. Same thing in Shadow too. Well, at least it's been consistent.

User avatar
big_smile
Drano Master
Posts: 1176
Joined: Sat May 22, 2004 3:27 am
Location: UK

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by big_smile »

I'm not following. What is it about the Adventure world that would've prohibited something like Casino Park or Bingo Highway from existing? Casinopolis had giant (virtual?) pinball machines that used Sonic as the ball. That doesn't seen any less fantastic or ridiculous.
Good point. I got the impression that the pinball machines were using some sort of virtual technology. But yes, even then, it doesn't seem strange that he said he couldn't have a Casino Park level.
Sonic Fighters having 8 is a problem though. Fang's is probably fake. He seems like he'd try to swindle someone by selling them a fake emerald. Or maybe Silver brought one from the alternate future and left it there because reasons.
Tails has a yellow/orange emerald, which isn't seen elsewhere. I like to pretend that Tails' one is the fake and it acts as a device to harness the energy from the others to make the rocket ship work. But I think the developers just had 8 because there are 8 characters.
Is it possible to fit 06 into the canon at all, even with the ctrl+Z at the end? Elise has possession of the blue Chaos Emerald for her entire childhood.... CLEARLY NOT CANON.
Well they indirectly reference 06 events in Sonic Colours, Sonic Generations, Sonic Rivals 2 and Sonic Runners. Admittedly, you could discount all those references as just pinching ideas from 06 rather than referencing the game directly. However, Colours mentions that Blaze and Silver might have been friends in another time, which seems a fairly strong reference to the game events. (Runners does something similar by saying Silver split from Blaze).
So even though it was wiped out of the time line it seems like it must have happened.

About the GG games:
Those all good points. Because Iizuka didn't want to include them in Generations, I'd probably lean more towards them not being canon, but it's not clear cut.

User avatar
Frieza2000
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:09 am
Now Playing: the fool
Location: confirmed. Sending supplies.

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Frieza2000 »

big_smile wrote:Tails has a yellow/orange emerald, which isn't seen elsewhere. I like to pretend that Tails' one is the fake and it acts as a device to harness the energy from the others to make the rocket ship work. But I think the developers just had 8 because there are 8 characters.
download/file.php?id=180
The orange emerald replaced the yellow emerald in S3&K (and also appears in Sonic R and a few handhelds). Espio's maroon emerald is the odd one out.
big_smile wrote:However, Colours mentions that Blaze and Silver might have been friends in another time, which seems a fairly strong reference to the game events. (Runners does something similar by saying Silver split from Blaze). So even though it was wiped out of the time line it seems like it must have happened.
At the very least we can say that 06 takes place in its own universe. Maybe instead of killing Maria and sealing Shadow on Prison Island, GUN just hired him and he ran into the rest of the Sonic crew while dealing with some of Eggman's other schemes. Hey, maybe it's the same universe as the GG games and the reason they only have 6 emeralds is because Elise has always had the 7th! :EB: (that actually kind of works; all of them except Sonic 2 are missing the cyan emerald)

Ooo! Smile! Did you ask Iizuka to confirm the report that Sonic eats rings?

User avatar
big_smile
Drano Master
Posts: 1176
Joined: Sat May 22, 2004 3:27 am
Location: UK

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by big_smile »

Maybe instead of killing Maria and sealing Shadow on Prison Island, GUN just hired him and he ran into the rest of the Sonic crew while dealing with some of Eggman's other schemes.
What happened to Shadow working for GUN anyway? He got recruited in the Shadow the Hedgehog hard mode, did a mission in 06 and then they've seem to have forgotten about it. (I think he might have been working for GUN in Sonic Colours, but I might be misremembering.)
Ooo! Smile! Did you ask Iizuka to confirm the report that Sonic eats rings?
Out of interest, what report is that?

User avatar
Frieza2000
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:09 am
Now Playing: the fool
Location: confirmed. Sending supplies.

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Frieza2000 »

You mean you don't remember? Spazz made a whole website dedicated to it!

Since Shadow's only had cameo roles since 06 they probably haven't given it any thought. If they ever make significant use of him again then he'll probably become whatever they need him to be.

User avatar
big_smile
Drano Master
Posts: 1176
Joined: Sat May 22, 2004 3:27 am
Location: UK

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by big_smile »

I must have missed Spazz's post. That's hilarious!!

User avatar
chriscaffee
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:43 am

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by chriscaffee »

I'm going to revisit the Angel Island map for fun. First a better picture of the manual sketch:

http://imageshack.com/a/img922/4743/rn7M3g.jpg

And now, a comparison:

Image

One thing to note is there are actually TWO Marble Garden ruins in the sketch. One in the center, but one to east as well, where it corresponds to the in-game sprite.

"Given the angle that we see it come down at and the direction it's "facing" in the zones, we can see that Lava Reef 1 is pretty far to the left of the volcano it crashes into, Lava Reef 2 is almost right beneath it, and Hidden Palace is to the right of it, but not as far right as Lava Reef 1 is left of it. But the beginning of Lava Reef 1 is directly underneath Sandopolis, which seems to contradict the title screen because that shows it on the opposite side of the Death Egg. It also makes it look like there's not much land to the left of it."

I don't think it disagrees with the title screen at all. Assuming "right in-game" is "north" on the title screen/sprite (IE, the Death Egg is looking south), then Lava Reef Act 1 is to the east of the volcano, just like Sandopolis Zone. Remember that in Act 1, the Death Egg is in the background and Sonic is in the foreground. If he is heading "north" then the Death Egg, to Sonic's left, is west. As he progresses to Act 2, the Death Egg is larger and closer. So Sonic is roughly heading in a north-west direction from Sandopolis to the center of the volcano. Once in the center, there is an epic boss fight, and Sonic ventures to Hidden Palace Zone. At HPZ, the Death Egg is still in the background and still roughly facing the left side of the screen. You are right though, the Death Egg is larger in HPZ then in Act 1 of LRZ so Sonic has doubled back and headed east a ways (Death Egg smaller) but not so far East as he was in LRZ Act 1. His northern movement seems to have stopped because he is still in the vicinity of the Death Egg/volcano.

Now, as shown in the graphic, "right on the screen" is not always north. For instance in Sonic 3, "right" starts off as east, then north, then west, then back to east again. Sonic literally runs almost the entire perimeter of Angel Island just in the Sonic 3 levels.
Well, the Doomsday robot did have two arms. In one hand it's got the Master Emerald, showing that he's stolen it, and with the other hand he's preparing to fight Sonic. If it were just Sonic doing a sunburst in front of the robot and all it was doing was clutching the emerald, that might not have conveyed as clearly that this is depicting a battle.
I meant his... third arm?!

Image
No, look at those screenshots again. The Death Egg was directly above Lava Reef 2. In Hidden Palace, it's about as far away from us as it is when it launches in Sky Sanctuary (going by the size of the eyes, maybe a mile further than that), so this part of the sanctuary seems to be nearly above where we just were. Knuckles's level could be in a different part of it (as you said, Sonic starts far away from the DE and ends up grabbing onto it so it covers a good distance)...but Knuckles is MILES away from the island! What is this platform? Is the Master Emerald holding it up too? Or is this something Eggman Robo hijacked?
Good point. I usually treat HPZ and LR as one big zone, but re-visiting this idea of Knuckles' Sky Sanctuary being miles away from the island and Sonic's being roughly above it. Easy explanation. Sonic restored the Master Emerald and Angel Island rose in the sky and...drifted some distance by the time EggRobo and Mecha Sonic started their shenanigans. We know the island drifts in the sky anyway because it crashes in the "southern seas" based on the events of Knuckles Chaotix, but then it crashes into the Mystic Ruins and not the ocean in Sonic Adventure, though, admittingly, basically on the coastline of the MR. Now, again, the MR could BE the NHZ, (I tend to think that NHZ and Angel Island were PARTS of the MR) but drifting in the sky a few miles in the direction of "Island-North" seems reasonable to me.
At the very least we can say that 06 takes place in its own universe. Maybe instead of killing Maria and sealing Shadow on Prison Island, GUN just hired him and he ran into the rest of the Sonic crew while dealing with some of Eggman's other schemes. Hey, maybe it's the same universe as the GG games and the reason they only have 6 emeralds is because Elise has always had the 7th! :EB: (that actually kind of works; all of them except Sonic 2 are missing the cyan emerald
I don't remember all the nonsense with this game, but didn't Silver start with the Blue Emerald in the future? When he gives Elise the Blue Emerald in the past, that is (well what Shadow does) what sets in motion the events in the game, right? So here is my idea:

Original Sonic timeline. -> Iblis destroys the World -> Silver, Sonic and Shadow begin time traveling shenanigans to stop the world from being destroyed -> This creates a sub-universe where Elise had the Chaos Emerald from birth which modifies the events of the regular Sonic timeline, namely every game that involves seven Chaos Emeralds -> this sub-timeline, however is retconned out of existence -> Sonic Made a Good Future! -> There is no more Post Apocalyptic Crisis City because Iblis is destroyed, so Silver never has a reason to go back in time and do his shenanigans... which means he NEVER gave Elise the Blue Chaos Emerald -> Original Sonic Timeline restored, events of Sonic '06, nullified by it's own story.

User avatar
Jingles
Posts: 346
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 1:40 pm

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Jingles »

I don't have anything constructive to add to this conversation, I just want to say I've been really, really enjoying reading everyone's posts in this thread. Keep up the good work, fellers!

Something not constructive: in an episode of the Sonic Boom cartoon, Tails offhandedly mentions that Knuckles comes from Angel Island, which I believe is the first and only time Boom has referenced the main series. Some reboot, right???

User avatar
Frieza2000
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:09 am
Now Playing: the fool
Location: confirmed. Sending supplies.

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Frieza2000 »

Ok, I didn't notice that second pillared building. That fixes the perspective problem I was having between the map and the sprite and, indeed, puts the "bite" where you've got it. I think the building next to the Death Egg is actually Hidden Palace. It's in roughly the right spot, though it's supposed to be deep underground. Maybe it's an upper level, or a part of Sky Sanctuary.

Where did you get that image? I couldn't find it in either manual. If it was in the S&K manual then the Eggman face is probably where the Death Egg jumped to, so it would be Lava Reef 2 rather than Launch Base. That seems to be the side of the island it's on in the S&K title screen. I guess Launch Base could be close to the volcano, in which case it didn't jump very far.
Assuming "right in-game" is "north" on the title screen/sprite (IE, the Death Egg is looking south), then Lava Reef Act 1 is to the east of the volcano, just like Sandopolis Zone.
No, it's facing opposite directions in Lava Reef 1 and HPZ, so they have to be on opposite sides of it regardless of what direction we're facing. Turning our perspective one way or the other changes what side of Sonic it's on, but not what side of its face that he's on. If it's facing south then LR1 is to the west of it and HPZ is to the east. I think we need a better visual.
death_egg_location_map.png
death_egg_location_map.png (127.16 KiB) Viewed 13835 times
Regardless of what direction Sonic is running, we know that his current location in LR1 is west of the Death Egg. By the time we're fighting the boss at the end of LR2 we've just passed it and are now slightly to the east of it, and HPZ is further east. As you point out, right isn't always the same direction (I would even propose that we effectively change directions in the middle of levels even though the perspective remains the same), so ignoring that, it looks like Sonic is running pretty much due east from LR1 until HPZ. In LR2 and HPZ the ship's mustache nearly lines up with the center of the screen, so we aren't moving laterally by much between them, but in LR1 it's on the right side of the screen so that zone appears to be significantly to the north of the others (which puts us behind the volcano on the Title screen and kind of helps to explain how the zone could fit there; the mountains must extend back for some distance).

Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oV0TjhUpi4

DAMMIT SEGA, WHY HAVEN'T YOU DONE THIS YET?!
I meant his... third arm?!
That thing on his back doesn't look like an arm to me. The 4 blue things sticking to the left look like fins/spikes, not fingers. I think it's just his back.
Sonic restored the Master Emerald and Angel Island rose in the sky and...drifted some distance by the time EggRobo and Mecha Sonic started their shenanigans.
So you think parts of Sky Sanctuary are sort of being trailed behind the island as it drifts? That works. Either way, the emerald has a much further reach that I would've thought.
I don't remember all the nonsense with this game, but didn't Silver start with the Blue Emerald in the future?
No, I did check that much. Mephiles uses the purple emerald to send them back; they don't take any with them. I couldn't readily find where Silver picks up the blue emerald.

Elise's ctrl+Z also undid at least 10 years of history (the Solaris Project, which ended in disaster 10 years before the game's story, never happened), so it's possible that the resulting timeline is the normal Sonic timeline, but whatever timeline the game actually takes place in is incompatible with that timeline. Even if we had two blue emeralds existing together for those 10 years, that should've come up on someone's radar much sooner. Unless Elise didn't have the emerald in the original "world is destroyed by Iblis" timeline, and Mephiles creates an alternate timeline by sending Silver to the present (where the game begins, with Elise already having the emerald because a different Silver from yet another timeline already gave it to her), then Silver goes back even further and gives her the emerald in yet a fourth timeline, travels forward to a fifth timeline, and I forget how it goes from there. But there were a number of predestination events that suggest we're in a "future can be changed" situation rather than an alternate timeline one, which would require Chaos Control to be capable of two different kinds of time travel (multiverse theory vs Novikov self-consistency principle), similar to how Zelda create two timelines at the end of OoT by using the ocarina whereas Link was clearly traveling back and forth on a single timeline using the Master Sword in the Temple of Time.
Frieza2000 wrote:Calling him a "rat" may imply that Knuckles feels Sonic has betrayed the trust they'd established at the end of S&K.
It just dawned on me. Right before you fight the final boss of Triple Trouble, you fight Metal Sonic. I'll bet Knuckles confused him for Sonic, and that's how it happened. Mecha Sonic was much bigger; Metal Sonic looks more like the genuine article.

User avatar
chriscaffee
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:43 am

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by chriscaffee »

Where did you get that image? I couldn't find it in either manual. If it was in the S&K manual then the Eggman face is probably where the Death Egg jumped to, so it would be Lava Reef 2 rather than Launch Base. That seems to be the side of the island it's on in the S&K title screen. I guess Launch Base could be close to the volcano, in which case it didn't jump very far.
I found that map in Google. What it appears to be is the same map as the one from the S&K manual, except without all the text. As for the source? Either a devoted Sonic fan vectored the graphic from the Sonic & Knuckles manual, or someone found the original art somewhere. Not sure which.

As for where the Death Egg is sitting, I'm 99% sure it is Launch Base Zone. Reasons are as follows in order from most to least relevant:
1) The Pipe. You can see a pipe wrapping around the Death Egg from the south-west that looks suspiciously like one from Launch Base Zone Act 2.
2) The Water. There is a water fall flowing into the basin the Death Egg is in and two water falls flowing out. This correlates to a similar basin on the in-game sprite which is the only "lake" we see on the island that the Death Egg could have landed in. When I was a kid I always thought the Death Egg was in the ocean NEXT to Angel Island, but we learn in the manual that it crashes into a lake on the island itself (which makes more sense, sense it shoves the island into the ocean even before Eggman steals the Master Emerald). The volcano we see on the title screen of S&K is the highest point of elevation shown and there is no evidence of a waterfall flowing into or out of that volcano.
3) The Death Egg. The way the Death Egg is drawn in the picture is the same orientation that we see in Launch Base Zone. The face is not buried into the basin, it is sitting roughly "up-right."
4) Amended Masterials. In Taxman's Sonic 2 re-make, there is a small animation of the Death Egg crashing in the direction of the Angel Island sprite. It is crashing toward the west side of the island.
No, it's facing opposite directions in Lava Reef 1 and HPZ, so they have to be on opposite sides of it regardless of what direction we're facing. Turning our perspective one way or the other changes what side of Sonic it's on, but not what side of its face that he's on. If it's facing south then LR1 is to the west of it and HPZ is to the east. I think we need a better visual.
AH! I had forgotten the Death Egg was facing the opposite direction in Act 1. Point goes to you. Sonic heads north-west from Sandopolis underground, then doubles back east to get to Hidden Palace Zone. Fair enough.

And to address your note about Sandopolis Act 2 being portrayed as HUGE on the S&K title screen island, and to rant a little bit. I think we have to take the scale of ALL artwork of Angel Island with a grain of salt. In the drawing and the sprite, there is only one pyramid, but we see some in the background of Sandopolis and they are a ways a way. The volcano isn't present in the drawing or the sprite (perhaps it's behind the mountains?). The drawing doesn't show the highest peak of the island and all. It could be hidden behind that cloud, but, even then it can't be as tall as portrayed in the sprite. The S&K title screen should have a lot more mountains around the volcano and should probably show the basin the Death Egg was originally sitting in based on the proportions/scale of the sprite, but it doesn't. Compared to the drawing and the sprite, things seem REALLY spread out on the S&K title screen, but then consider the backgrounds of the levels you play in:

Mountains everywhere!

Image
Image
Image

And the lake the Death Egg crashes into in the drawing doesn't seem much bigger then the Death Egg itself.

Image

But it's big enough that glaciers are breaking off the mountains in Icecap Zone and floating in it with no Death Egg to be seen for miles!

And don't forget Sonic 3's title screen representation of Angel Island...with a...second island next to it...?!?

Image

We haven't even gotten into Sonic Adventure or Sonic Chronicles (WE WILL TALK ABOUT SONIC CHRONICLES! :D). These are just the portrayals of the island from 1994.

So... does Sandopolis stretch that far? Probably not. I think that title screen was designed to showcase the Sonic & Knuckles levels, which is why there is no trace of anything from Sonic 3, even though Sonic 3 Zones should be visible from that perspective. I think each... "representation" of Angel Island is just supposed to sell you on the idea of the island, but none of them is the complete, whole, "canon" picture. The scale of the island varies as necessary. In-game we need a scrolling background, so there are a lot of mountains. Outside the levels, it doesn't make sense that there are hundreds of mountains. The drawing mostly shows off Sonic 3 levels. Same with the sprite. S&K title screen is all Sonic & Knuckles. Sonic 3 title screen is just a generic island because they likely didn't finalize the look of Angel Island when that game launched. No version of Angel Island shows where Carnival Night Zone is, and we've never seen the full Flying Battery, which apparently is still orbiting Angel Island, piloted by that robot mole. We don't see a lot of evidence of the zones from Sonic 3 & Knuckles in Sonic Adventure because we don't get to visit them anyway, and it would likely be distracting for new players. "What is that Egyptian Pyramid down there and how do I get to it?!"

So yeah, the scale, and what zones they choose to display on the island are pretty inconsistent. But they are all there. I swear.
DAMMIT SEGA, WHY HAVEN'T YOU DONE THIS YET?!
Don't worry. A decade from now when the Sonic fangames community finishes Sonic 2 HD, they'll start on S3K.
So you think parts of Sky Sanctuary are sort of being trailed behind the island as it drifts? That works. Either way, the emerald has a much further reach that I would've thought.
Perhaps because it is so far away, Angel Island isn't at its "max height?" Then when Knuckles brings it back to Angel Island, the Master Emerald can lift it higher? Seriously the Master Emerald is more inconsistent then the Chaos Emeralds. Did we ever decide what the significance between it glowing and not glowing was? Like how it never glows in the past, and only starts glowing once Sonic gets all the Super Emeralds, but then it just keeps on glowing, even when it's shattered and re-built and there are no emeralds (Choas, Super or otherwise) anywhere near the thing?
No, I did check that much. Mephiles uses the purple emerald to send them back; they don't take any with them. I couldn't readily find where Silver picks up the blue emerald.
Yeah I think the game basically created it's own branching timeline and then killed said branching timeline off at the end, thus negating anything that happened that would have contradicted with the original timeline in the first place. It's a self-contained loop like in The Terminator, except it erases itself instead of justifies it's own existence. Which is probably for the best because Sonic '06 was horrible.
It just dawned on me. Right before you fight the final boss of Triple Trouble, you fight Metal Sonic. I'll bet Knuckles confused him for Sonic, and that's how it happened. Mecha Sonic was much bigger; Metal Sonic looks more like the genuine article.
I would normally say this is ridiculous except that Amy Rose, Sonic's biggest fan-girl SOMEHOW CONFUSES SHADOW FOR SONIC WHILE STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO HIM IN BROAD DAYLIGHT. At least GUN had the excuse of Shadow escaping at night time, and maybe them not wanting to let the truth about 50 years ago out of the bag, so they just let their cannon-fodder troops "think" it's Sonic. ("Go grab any speedy hedgehogs you see!" "You mean Sonic?" "Sure...and any other ones if you happen to see any.")

User avatar
Frieza2000
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:09 am
Now Playing: the fool
Location: confirmed. Sending supplies.

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Frieza2000 »

Good points about Launch Base. I'm with it.

I've always know Angel Island must be bigger than it looks when we see it from afar (especially in SA1, where it's downright tiny), but now that you point all that out...it really is a huge piece of land! It's got at least 7 zones just on the surface, with radically different backgrounds that it doesn't look like you can see any of the other zones from. I don't think I've seen that scale properly represented in any depiction of the island I've seen, even fan work.
Perhaps because it is so far away, Angel Island isn't at its "max height?" Then when Knuckles brings it back to Angel Island, the Master Emerald can lift it higher?
I meant the distance between the Master Emerald and Sky Sanctuary during normal drifting, that I'm surprised the platforms would he held in its orbit so far away. If you mean the fact that the island isn't immediately falling like a rock despite the emerald being miles away from it at the end of Knuckles's story, that's also worth noting. If you just stand there and let the clock run, the island will gradually drop (I forget if it actually reaches the bottom of the screen before 10:00 is up). That could be because some sort of residual levitation energy is getting depleted gradually, or maybe the emerald is close enough to almost hold it up but not quite.
I would normally say this is ridiculous except that Amy Rose [is canonically blind because bad writing]
Even without passing Knuckles the idiot ball, I think it could work. Remember that Knuckles has lived his whole life isolated from the rest of the world and he's probably a bit naive to the ways of the world. And while he obviously has some experience with technology (and even electricity, in Carnival Night), I think robotics is a new thing to him. After dealing with EggRobo and Mecha Sonic he must certainly have understood the concept of a robot double, but he may not be that great at spotting one. If he saw Metal Sonic stealing emeralds or capturing animal friends from a distance, it may not have occurred to him that it was yet another robot.
and maybe them not wanting to let the truth about 50 years ago out of the bag, so they just let their cannon-fodder troops "think" it's Sonic
I had assumed that too. GUN would've known darn well that they weren't looking for the famous blue hedgehog that saved Station Square just a short time ago. Either that or their troops are all color blind.
Did we ever decide what the significance between it glowing and not glowing was?
It's the not glowing in the past part that makes this hard. Even just taking SA1 as a standalone story, there's nothing intuitive I can think of to explain why the designers would make it that way intentionally other than the aesthetics of the shrine. The glowing begins after the 7th Super Emerald appears and either it never stops after that or it starts again during SA1 (there's no significant glowing in SA2 or Sonic Advance 3, but we don't get a good look at it in SA2 and Advance 3 is pretty minimal in terms of background effects), so obviously that event is what triggered it. Let me see if I can pull a few ideas out of a hat.
  1. As Smile suggested, the Master Emerald was somehow permanently changed by the 7 Super Emeralds. I don't like this at all for several reasons. The Master Emerald is supposed to be the controller, having power of the Chaos Emeralds, not the other way around. We've also never seen any kind of automatic behavior from the Chaos Emeralds, only the Master Emerald. It could've used the power of the Super Emeralds to change itself, but couldn't it have done that with just the Chaos Emeralds? Or in the past, when it had all 7 emeralds? And the idea that the Super Emeralds would change the Master Emerald after it had JUST changed them INTO Super Emeralds to begin with also feels like it violates some kind of thermodynamic principle.
  2. Over however many years the Master Emerald sat on the Chao's altar, it gradually depleted its energy until the point where it became unable to interact with the emeralds in some way that it would otherwise be constantly doing. After sitting on the Pillar for 3000 years it had fully recharged (I'm sort of assuming it originated from the Pillar for this). Then, once the emeralds were restored to their true form, it resumed its usual behavior of neutralizing/harmonizing/whatever with them. It does this regardless of how far away they are.
  3. After S&K, the Master Emerald decided for whatever reason that we need to have Super Emeralds all of the time now and the glowing behavior represents it constantly boosting them into Super Emeralds. Again, it does this regardless of range.
  4. Something about the Chaos Emeralds has changed from 3000 years ago. Maybe they've accumulated a lot of negative energy from being misused so often, or maybe they've grown unstable. Once they're restored to their true form in S&K, the Master Emerald starts suppressing them for safety reasons (again, regardless of range). It continues trying to do this even while it's broken, though the fact that the emeralds don't immediately go out of control or show any sign of change during this period indicates that whatever it's restraining is not an imminent disaster. If it's a matter of negative energy, the final battle of SA1 may have solved the problem, explaining why the ME doesn't seem to glow in SA2.
  5. Being around the restored Chaos Emeralds/Super Emeralds somehow awakened the dormant spirits of Tikal and Chaos, at which point Chaos began using the Master Emerald's power to formulate an escape. This is the reason it rose NHZ and moved the emerald to the altar near Red Mountain (perhaps it was even in NHZ that Eggman discovered the stone tablets describing Chaos's imprisonment in the ME, leading him to intentionally smash it). It continues glowing after they're released because Tikal is constantly using it to basically continue existing. Her body was destroyed when she was sealed away, so she uses its power to manifest as a ball of light or, at the end, an apparition of her old self. She also uses it to create the interactive visions/time travel. In this case it would be likely that she's also the one who shows Knuckles the image of the Egg Carrier to guide him to the other emerald pieces (she IS the in-level hint orb after all) and the one who caused Angel Island to crash again at the end, since she thought Chaos would need to be sealed in the ME again. This makes it possible to explain ALL of the behavior that has been attributed to the gods as something initiated by a mortal (except making Angel Island's emeralds disappear, which could be explained some other way), so in this theory you could get away with saying that the Master Emerald is actually not channeling a consciousness at all.
  6. The Master Emerald actually WAS glowing in the past, just an imperceptibly dim glow. Something has changed over the last 3000 years that makes it glow brighter after the emeralds are restored. Maybe it has to do with the fact that the emeralds give energy to all living things. Since the planet likely has a much bigger sentient population than it did 3000 years ago, more energy is being distributed and thus the glow is brighter (of course this assumes the Master Emerald has some kind of role in that process, which has never been hinted at).
Like I said, nothing really intuitive, but at least there are some workable ones.

User avatar
Frieza2000
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:09 am
Now Playing: the fool
Location: confirmed. Sending supplies.

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Frieza2000 »

Guess we finally burned out. Oh well, maybe after Mania comes out we'll have more.

I ran into someone today who tried to track the emeralds throughout Sonic 06. I remember this now. They were so careless with it that I wasn't even able to keep track while playing. So apparently the bad future is not an alternate timeline because Omega can just sit and wait until it arrives, at which point he gives Shadow the green emerald back.

Also, if Shadow can time travel with just two emeralds, why doesn't he go back and save Maria? It worked with Elise. Actually, this might be a great way to canonically retcon everything that's happened since SA1.

Also also:
Image
Am I the only one who never realized that's a chaos drive powering the bomb? I thought it was a piece of the Master Emerald, or some random power gem.

User avatar
chriscaffee
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:43 am

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by chriscaffee »

Doesn't it say in supplemental materials that Gerald invented the Chaos Drives? If that's the case, Eggman could have just used an existing bomb from Ark's weapons lab rather then making one himself.

User avatar
Frieza2000
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:09 am
Now Playing: the fool
Location: confirmed. Sending supplies.

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Frieza2000 »

Yeah, they were created by Gerald, who was studying Chaos Emeralds and looking for a way to apply their infinite energy to living things. GUN was powering their robots with them, so it's entirely possible Eggman picked up a bomb powered by one on Prison Island or Ark. Given that they have gems inside, they're probably similar to Tails's fake emerald.

User avatar
chriscaffee
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:43 am

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by chriscaffee »

So, dusted off the old SEGA Genesis for kicks and am playing through Sonic 3 & Knuckles, when suddenly it occurs to me that the Launch Base Zone Act 2 background features Mushroom Hill Zone and Sandopolis. I never realized it before. I assumed the Act 1 background was the Act 2 foreground and vice versa, but I think those "hilly" structures are actually intended to be pyramids. As you progress through the Act, you just get closer to the center of the lake, and you don't "orbit" it as much as I originally thought.

I'd post an image but my 30 day free sub to imageshack is up so...

User avatar
Frieza2000
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:09 am
Now Playing: the fool
Location: confirmed. Sending supplies.

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Frieza2000 »

The forum lets you upload attachments with your posts, but Google has us covered for now.

https://www.spriters-resource.com/resou ... 0/9947.png
http://overloadr.com.br/wp-content/uplo ... onic-3.png

It does have sort of an Egyptian texture, but they look like mountains to me. They're not symmetric at all.

What do you see that looks like Mushroom Hill?

Interesting how the sky goes from being ocean blue to a kind of purple, though. I never noticed that.

User avatar
chriscaffee
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:43 am

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by chriscaffee »

Image

So in "Pane 3," the forest just on the outskirts of the lake in the background, next to the EggMobile is Mushroom Hill Zone. Even though the level is named for the giant mushrooms, the largest element in the level is the giant forest in the background. When you disable the Death Egg in Launch Base Zone, it crashes in the "background" (which is Island-North). And as we worked out earlier, Sonic roughly heads roughly North (zig-zagging a bit) through Mushroom Hill, Flying Battery, Sandopolis, Lava Reef and then Hidden Palace, based on the S&K title screen.

As for the mountains/pyramids. If you look at them, they are very geometric and appear to have winding steps and stairs on them. There is definitely an echidna-made aspect to them, even if they are staircases carved into mountains. We can look at the backgrounds of Marble Garden, Carnival Night and Ice Cap and see that the Genesis (and background artists) are more than capable of rendering mountains that look like mountains instead of weird temples.

Now, obviously, you are right in that they don't like traditional Egyptian style pyramids. I have a theory for that as well. We know that Sonic 3 was split into Sonic and Sonic & Knuckles. We also know that at some point in development Mushroom Hill Zone, Flying Battery and Sandopolis (?) were included in the game due to the Debug Mode for Sonic 3, so it makes sense that Launch Base Zone would have Mushroom Hill in the background since Sonic progresses in that direction as he heads toward the Death Egg crash site. But, again, the "pyramids" don't look like pyramids. That is true, but since S3K was one big game, we know that not everything was finalized when the Sonic 3 portion was released. As an example, the artwork for Angel Island doesn't have a lot of Sonic & Knuckles stages showcased - but it does have a forest that could be Mushroom Hill and a pyramid that is likely representative of Sandopolis (see below). The artwork also shows the Death Egg in the lake (Launch Base) and not in the volcano (Lava Reef) which means the artwork (even though it appears in the S&K manual) is more in line with Sonic 3. It includes levels up to Sandopolis (again, which was worked on and included in Sonic 3) but none of the Sonic & Knuckles "exclusive" levels (ie. Lava Reef and onward) The point being, perhaps, Sandopolis was not fully fleshed out when the artwork for Launch Base Zone and Angel Island for Sonic 3 was done, which is why the pyramids/temples look different between Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles.

And actually, go back to the "manual art" of Angel Island and look at the pyramid:

Image

Note the "flat top" and steps that surround it. Very similar to how the pyramids look in the background of Launch Base 2.

But in Sonic & Knuckles the pyramids are all "pyramid" shaped with no stairs around them.

So that's my theory. Before the games were split, there was a planned aesthetic for Sandopolis to have non-pointy pyramids with no orbiting staircases, and at some point, that changed into the more traditional pyramids we see on the S&K title screen, the S&K Angel Island sprite, and the S&K Sandopolis Zone. The change may have even happened prior to the split, and they just never went back and redrew the Launch Base Zone background and the manual artwork for Angel Island.

User avatar
Frieza2000
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:09 am
Now Playing: the fool
Location: confirmed. Sending supplies.

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Frieza2000 »

Oh, neat, I didn't notice that the trunks of the trees become visible in Launch Base 2. Given the distance, they appear to be pretty tall, with branches only near the top, just like the ones in Mushroom Hill. That does add some weight to the rock wall being related to Sandopolis, and I agree that it looks like there are planar surfaces or unusually smooth facets cut into it, but remember that natural geography in Sonic's world tends to be a bit geometric in certain zones so I wouldn't take that as evidence of it being carved. I would also point out that those pyramids would have to be insanely tall for that tiny line of trees to represent the length and height of Mushroom Hill (remember, those trees are HUGE!). I think it's more likely a natural barrier between the forest and Sandopolis, which the Flying Battery takes us over.

User avatar
Dr. BUGMAN
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:18 am
Now Playing: Poverty

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

So I was thinking on how Sonic CD could happen before 2 when Metal is (allegedly) superior to the Mecha Sonics. Like, it's been staring at us the whole time; that is, time-travel. I think we're to infer the "present" is concurrent to Sonic, Amy & Eggman's present, but the past and futures could happen at any given point in either direction. We know Eggman could time-travel, too, evidenced by his and Metals's presence in the future and the badnik generators and holograms in the past. Now, what if Eggman somehow got in touch with his (perhaps posthumous) self, beyond the apex of his technical prowess. Maybe he stumbled upon, or knew in advance of, an encrypted broadcast of Metal Sonic's schematics from his home planet by his future self.

Furthermore, what if knowing he never got the ball rolling on developing his own Sonic simulacrum, it'd cause on ontological paradox. Or maybe it was fueled by Metal Sonic's defeat and his own hubris that he could do better than his future self.

Also, looking over his own shoulder to cheat the game, he may have failed to take in account that he may eventually have had a change of heart and was sabotaging his past self with more than he bargained for. Or maybe future Eggman just completely lost his mind before designing MS. And there's the remote possibility it's someone else masquerading as him (oh the irony)!

*wipes screen after vigorous fankwank*

User avatar
big_smile
Drano Master
Posts: 1176
Joined: Sat May 22, 2004 3:27 am
Location: UK

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by big_smile »

Well, Eggman created Metal Knuckles in Sonic R followed by Mecha Knuckles in Sonic Advance, so perhaps he doesn't regard the Mecha bots as inferior.

Plus, in Sonic 4, he had to go all the way to Little Planet to get Metal Sonic, rather than making a new one. So perhaps Metal has some tech which is too expensive to reproduce. Hence why Eggman made Mecha Sonic (and made him extra bulky to be hedgehog proof).

User avatar
Frieza2000
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:09 am
Now Playing: the fool
Location: confirmed. Sending supplies.

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Frieza2000 »

big_smile wrote:too expensive
This is a guy who built at least 3 Death Stars in the course of a few years, with flying fortresses and hidden bases to complement them. I don't think he's ever run into a problem of limited resources (which makes his reluctance to pay the Chaotix in Heroes somewhat funny). In fact, now I'm inspired to come up with a list of his most resource-intensive projects.

Death Egg 1 (Sonic 2, Sonic 3&K, Drift 2)
E.G.G. Station (Sonic 4-1)
Death Egg Mk. II (Sonic 4-2)
Death Egg 2 (Sonic the Fighters)
Silver Castle (G-Sonic)
Cosmic Angel (Advance 1)
Egg Utopia (Advance 2)
Death Egg 3 (Sonic Battle)
Dead Line (Sonic Rush)
Dr. Eggman's Amazing Interstellar Amusement Park, made up of SEVERAL PLANET-SIZED ATTRACTIONS CONNECTED BY SPACE ELEVATORS (Sonic Colors)

The only thing he ever seems to lack is an adequate power source, which is why he's always chasing artifacts of power like the Chaos Emeralds. Maybe Metal Sonic was built using something he found that he can't replicate. I like to think it's something about the AI, though.

Let me expand on Bugman's fanwankery. What if Little Planet is the reason Eggman was able to get the resources to build his first Death Egg? We know Sonic had been fighting him on South Island for a while prior to Sonic 1, but it sounds like he'd never really done anything planet-level up to that point (Sonic was shocked to hear that he'd captured all of his friends). The only thing he really had going for him that we saw was Scrap Brain and a relatively small army of badniks he'd just recently made. Zones like Spring Yard and Starlight seem to have been commandeered, not built. So how did he suddenly go from local mad scientist to one-man nation? Well, what if his plan to build an army using Little Planet's resources and time travel was partially successful? By the time Sonic gets there he's already created everything we see in the bad future. What if he'd managed to get some of what he built off of the planet already? Perhaps a gigantic army of worker bots who would gather resources for him, build a base on Westside Island, and eventually furnish him an orbital death machine of world-dominating might? The theory works surprisingly well!

User avatar
big_smile
Drano Master
Posts: 1176
Joined: Sat May 22, 2004 3:27 am
Location: UK

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by big_smile »

Well, too expensive in the sense of time/power requirements (like you said about using technology that is not easy to replicate). Otherwise, why go to all the trouble of going to Little Planet to get back Metal Sonic back, when he could just build a new one?

In Sonic 4, Metal Sonic has to hunt down a mystical power source before he can take on Sonic, which again suggests that Eggman couldn't easily create a second Metal Sonic.

Although the whole Metal Sonic story in Sonic 4 is silly. Metal Sonic lays battle damaged on Little Planet, yet is able to fly all the way back to Eggman on Earth/Sonic's World before he is repaired. Once fixed up, he hunts down an ancient power, which gives him the power to... steal Tails' plane. He then has to use this plane to fly to Sonic, even though he managed interstellar travel when he was still battle damaged. And then he blows up just like he did in Sonic CD.

User avatar
G.Silver
Drano Master
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sat May 22, 2004 12:58 am
Now Playing: Radiant Silvergun, Wario World
Location: warshington
Contact:

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by G.Silver »

I kind of like the time travel theory.
Well, Eggman created Metal Knuckles in Sonic R followed by Mecha Knuckles in Sonic Advance, so perhaps he doesn't regard the Mecha bots as inferior.
It really depends on what standards we're using to judge these robots. Obviously Metal Sonic is the fastest (because he's the only one you actually race against), and the coolest looking, and (most importantly) the fan favorite, so Eggman being incredibly egotistical it isn't surprising that he keeps re-using Metal Sonic or regarding him as his "greatest" even when in terms of strength or raw 1up-decimating power his other Sonic robots are "superior." But since the purpose of these robots is to replicate Sonic, they are failures because none of them compete with or reproduce Sonic's core properties, which Metal Sonic (presumably) does. They also don't look much like him, if that matters. Metal Sonic's staying power could also be that he was designed with expansion functionality or ease-of-upgrading in mind, and is superior in that sense. (Consider what happens in Sonic Heroes when he gets the Chaos Emeralds, compared to the Mecha Sonic in S&K.)
Frieza2000 wrote:Dr. Eggman's Amazing Interstellar Amusement Park, made up of SEVERAL PLANET-SIZED ATTRACTIONS CONNECTED BY SPACE ELEVATORS (Sonic Colors
Along with the Newtrogenic High Zone, these bases were amusement parks in disguise, suggesting that tricking gullible investors are sometimes an important part of his plans. Since the Amazing Interstallar Amusement Park is, apparently, much bigger than his other efforts, maybe that suggests that one single moon-sized fortress at a time is the extent of his personal finances.

User avatar
Frieza2000
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:09 am
Now Playing: the fool
Location: confirmed. Sending supplies.

Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Frieza2000 »

I feel like Eggman is the sort who would shun financial support. Like dealing with the financial powers of the world is beneath him. Given his industrial capacity and incredible ingenuity, he may not participate in the global economy at all. With enough worker bots he can mine his own ore, cut his own wood, drill his own oil, manufacture and refine and fabricate whatever he needs. We've never even seen him steal anything other than artifacts of power. The amusement parks, aside from being an indulgence of his own childishness, could be a cover to keep the local authorities out of his hair.

Post Reply