Revenge of the nerds

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Wombatwarlord777
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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Wombatwarlord777 »

Eggman being associated with eggs in kind of cut and dry, at least in my view. Eggman obviously wants nothing more than to shake up the status quo by conquering the world. He is, by definition, an incubator in which profound change and his vision of the world will (hopefully for him) come to fruition and hatch.

What will come of Eggman successfully conquering the world is not known for certain (multiple official sources indicate that he's gonna trash at least some natural environments, although that obviously wouldn't be exclusively what he would do. At the very least, I think his awareness of what GUN did to his grandfather would prompt him to shake up the social order, in which scientists would be moved towards the top), and that plays into Eggman's other theme of concealment. Eggman is one strange egg, and like other unidentified eggs, you never know what is going to come of him. In that sense, for all of his brashness and bravado, Sonic represents an unwillingness to alter the familiar status quo. Eggman represents unknown change, a concept that some people find terrifying.

And that's not even getting into the concept that Eggman is a tireless creator and that a form of "life" springs from him in his robot creations. Look at all the sentience that Eggman has brought into the world (for all of the goofiness that Orbot and Cubot entail, they have more advanced A.I. programming than anything in real life). You might argue that Eggman corrupts life by bending it to his self-serving vision, which is true when he powers his robots with animals or seeds. But what about all the robots that are powered by rings or something else? What about Zero and most of his later Badniks and Egg Pawns? They owe their existence almost entirely to Eggman.

As for birds and avian themes in the Sonic franchise in general, it's true that they, on average, represent the past, but more than that, they represent an idealized version of the past, back when we were space aliens and had badass floating cities and a ton of other cool shit that we don't have now. I'm kind of curious if that was intentional or not, as I don't particularly associate flight with a sense of nostalgia or yearning for past greatness. I think it makes more sense to think of it as overcoming one's limits, which is very evident at least in the case of Tails, and could be argued for the Babylon Rogues.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Jingles »

Naka clearly has a thing for eggs in the games he produces, as Billy Hatcher and Ivy the Kiwi? will attest to. I suppose it all comes down to the uncertainty and anticipation an egg presents - Ivo is a complicated guy, after all.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

Eggman represents potential sure, but he's categorically a manchild whose time to mature -- ie, hatch -- is long since past. He harbours in him a distorted past, rendered fetid by a warped nostalgia; he is the rotten egg wherein the contents aren't just bad but threaten to contaminate everything else with false memories.

Perhaps his robots represent a yearning when animals were subservient to man yet neglects the suffering that engendered.

How ironic it is that he sunk Angel Island when it is the rotten egg which floats. Flight wasn't part of my thesis, but it is an interesting point. Flight itself is downright ancient; insects took to the air long before vertebrates crawled out of the sea; pterosaurs attainted flight nearly a hundred million years before birds. Birds themeselves have independently lost flight several times afterwards, so it's not a goal but a sustained effort that is easily lost. A few of the Battle Kukku aside, none of the anthropomorphic birds have natural flight (if indeed, the BK aren't being assisted in someway by unseen technology), but the basal animal birds can.

And, c'mon, not nostagliac?

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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I love this discussion. I especially like the idea of the Avians being the rivals of the Echidnas. Sonic Riders doesn't give a timeframe for when they arrived on Earth, but it could easily fit. Too bad the whole Echidnan epoch will never be explored ever again!

The Flicky birds that follow you at the end of Sonic 2 (and to a lesser extent the seagulls and dolphins at the end of S&K) always felt like a vague symbol of freedom to me, reflecting Sonic's free spirit in the same way that his association with wind represents his restless heart.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

Hmm yes, they're free of the egg and thus unencumbered by history, unbound by old duties and grudges. The past is a burden to those defined by it, like Knuckles and Shadow(who emerges from an egglike capsule) etc.

A bit of a clarification, more of an addendum: the winged rings are likely an allusion to aviator badges (not that it couldn't mean more than one thing):

Image
(This is the closest match yielded by Google search, but the source doesn't specify anything on it in particular. Suffice it to say there are others with a ring/circle theme with or without a star; usually the star denoting some "master" class if I'm not mistaken)

The obvious take away is that they're a remnant of the "Mary Garnet" story and/or Sega's origin in the military. However immaterial those may be, they inform some of what is canonical or more pertinently that Shiro Maekawa relied on such formative things in his own plots. Shadow debuts in a military base as does Sonic in the "Mary Garnet" story; there are important human female figures throught the tale be they Mary/Cherry/Meg(/Madonna), and Shadow has his similarly named Maria. And I need not reference this for the millionth time.

The military theme I suspect shows up in other less documented sources -- I vaguely recall years of birth given to Sonic and Eggman and some mention of atomic bomb origins. These seem to tie in to other things like golden age animation that inspired the aesthetic, World War II, and the British bombing of Kiritimati Island in the '50s. Kiritimati is indeed pronounced exactly as Christmas and is named after that holiday; does the "Christmas Island" origin spell it out in English or Japanese, and if the latter would the spelling be identical for both "Christmas" and "Kiritimati"?

Anyone with a SonicRetro account is free to ask any of this there if you're inclined.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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Dr. BUGMAN wrote:The military theme I suspect shows up in other less documented sources -- I vaguely recall years of birth given to Sonic and Eggman and some mention of atomic bomb origins.
Some Japanese clothing tags say "born in 1947 but made for the 90's": https://twitter.com/AbelMunizJr/status/ ... 2449733632 https://twitter.com/AbelMunizJr/status/ ... 2284464128

One of Hoshino's Sonic CD era sketches has a photo realistic Eggman with the birth year 1931: http://pencilhill.tumblr.com/post/16275 ... ook-becker

The former has to be related to the fairy tale backstory, the latter is more ambiguous. Maybe Hoshino just imagined Eggman to be 62 years old?

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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Ooh, that is interesting. 1947 is indeed mentioned in the MG tale, specifically the disastrous super sonic attempt, implying that's how he was born, apparently fully formed. Given his original age was "about 18," this places the games in the mid- to late-1960s at the earliest, or else time travel (or stasis) was involved, which isn't unlikely considering where else it's cropped up.

Also, Eggman is only 16 years older than Sonic, suggesting he's either 34-ish or 60 (if we place the games in Sonic 1's release date) depending on when the games take place. The latter is seemingly more likely, so he possibly wasn't affected by a time skip like Sonic.

Now think of Shadow's first appearance: he arises from a capsule and Eggman immediately assumes it's Sonic without missing a beat. He doesn't question why the hell Sonic might have been inside it in the first place, suggesting it wasn't the first time it happened. Moreover, 1947 is roughly 50 years before Sonic Adventure was released. This not only further suggests that Sonic is the true "Ultimate Lifeform," but also that the MG tale was still canonical as recently as 2001.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

Oh and thanks for digging these up, by the way. :oops:

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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So I was thinking of how Shadow and Biolizard* share their integument with the Black Arms, and how Sonic is similarly comparable to Chaos. It also occurred to me that Silver is likewise colored like Solaris (white with cyan accents), despite no indication that the former is anything besides an indirect result of the latter, to say nothing of any implicit genetic tinkerer of Gerald's mold (Duke of Soleanna?).

Which of course just raises the question of what is the natural color of hedgehogs in this reality; could Amy's dayglo pink be any indication? Could it be a funky dye job or is she, too, be a lab thing. There are certainly no shortage of any mighty magenta manitous adjacent to Sonic's world, be it Lumina Flowlight, Shahra or Erazor Djinn/Alf-Layla-wa-Layla (and not one of them lacking golden accoutrement, either).

Moreover, Dark Gaia shares its red+purple scheme with the Knuckles Clan warrior caste. It's tempting to classify Knuckles as au naturel, but lifelong exposure to the Master Emerald would've affected him in of itself, much like the humble Chao-made-god before him. Being part Dark Gaia would certainly account for why Knuckles has a gob full of shark teeth when real echidnas lack chompers entirely.

So supposing I haven't gone completely of the deep end, this would make Tails the only being native to this reality with the potential for a Super form that doesn't have a corresponding deity of the same pallet. Make of that what you will.

*The lack of claws and teeth and the presence of gills and shperical eggs designates it as a salamander or newt and not a lizard of any sort, surely.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Wombatwarlord777 »

If you really want to stretch, Tails may have been transmogrified by the Phoenix of Chun-Nan, another godlike being with magical properties. Aside from the obvious connection of flight and its very distinct and flowing multiple tail feathers, you've also potentially got Super Tails's use of super-charged Flickies.

Image

Come on, take a look at this majestic, legendary bird's laughably cartoonish face and dare to deny that this thing isn't God of All Flickies.
So I was thinking of how Shadow and Biolizard*...
I honestly thought that you were going to bring is up in your asterisk, but I thought it was heavily implied post-Shadow the Hedgehog that the Biolizard represented Dr. Gerald's cumulative results of Project Shadow without Black Doom's Magic Space Jesus Blood. Biolizard is in many ways the imperfect foil of both Black Doom's and Shadow: It's relatively simple, it arguably isn't intelligent or sentient (with all of Biolizard augmentations, I'm willing to gamble that Dr. Gerald basically programed it to force Space Colony ARK to fall to Earth), uncontrollably grows and reproduces (essentially being analogous to cancer, the exact opposite of Shadow's focused and perfectly executed development, not to mention all of the Black Arms' organically-grown tools and weapons) and despite all that, still needs life support in order to survive. I can kind of see Biolizard's resemblance to the Black Arms, especially to Black Bull, but thematically and in-universe, Biolizard represents Gerald's limitations in the complete absence of the Black Arms' assistance.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

Is there a chronology to BD's involvement with Project Shadow? I assumed it was before the Biolizard, and the "success" of Shadow was more to do with other factors, chiefly his form, presumably derived from the Hidden Palace mural.

This bears out especially if Sonic is the true Ultimate Lifeform, (presumably) lacking any Black Arm DNA himself.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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Dr. BUGMAN wrote:Is there a chronology to BD's involvement with Project Shadow? I assumed it was before the Biolizard
This cutscene in Shadow's game suggests otherwise. Admittedly, Doom's dialogue and what we're seeing onscreen might not match up exactly, but I think its telling that he and Gerald are facing each other, presumably discussing the deal (and, somehow, Black Doom doesn't seem like he'd just give his DNA up without a bit of good-natured negotiation, first).

Also pertinent: Black Doom's trip to the ARK 50 years ago wasn't the first time he made contact with Sonic's world.
Sonic Retro wrote:By his own testimony, Black Doom has lived for at least 2,000 years, since he claims responsibility for having planting the Glyphic Canyon temple-ships on Sonic's world
It's fun to imagine him coming down to Angel Island, getting ready for a hearty meal, then being scared off by Perfect Chaos.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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If BD visited "Earth" millennia prior, then it's within the realm of plausibility that he left some bio-stuff behind. It's also possible that there were many mitigating factors involved such as, (1), it was damaged through the interim, (2), Black Arms' DNA isn't as hearty as Chaos's, (3), it was deliberately compromised as a test, and so on.

Gerald also had his "Artificial Chaos" program whose relevancy to "Project Shadow" is circumstantial but likely. In other words, he put comparable effort into synthesizing Chaos as he did to Black Arms, if not more so, if quantity is anything to go by.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by big_smile »

This was posted by MainJP on Sonic Stadium:

http://speeps-highway.tumblr.com/post/1 ... to-see-the
http://speeps-highway.tumblr.com/post/1 ... -e3-trials

Basically, Sonic Adventure had lots of little references to the Mega Drive games including Angel Island and Little Planet which were removed from the English version. It seems they were actually in earlier versions of the English translation, but removed from the final. Oh, SoA why would you do such a thing?

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Tsuyoshi-kun »

Didn't they also threaten to change the entire soundtrack a la Sonic CD style, too?

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

I was thinking of Angel Island recently. Is there any solid evidence that it reascended in the aftermath of Adventure 1? All I can think of is in Advance 1, but the high altitude doesn't definitively imply that the whole island is supernal. What we see is a vista of what is presumably that of Angel Island itself. Moreover, the section we're presented isn't too dissimilar from Sky Sanctuary, which itself is possibly levited above AI in "normal" circumstances.

Good to have confirmation that Sonic CD was never not canonical.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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Angel Island is seen floating on the Advance 2 level map and also appears to be floating in Advance 3 (and in the Sonic Shuffle ending credits).

In Runners, it's mentioned that Knuckles keeps the Master Emerald in a special temple so he can go on his adventures. The game isn't clear (nor my memories of it), but it seems like the temple is on Earth, so either the island no longer floats, or the temple has the power to transmit the energy.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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Hey, while this thread is active, here's a little thing I've been thinking about a lot, recently: Who is Witch Cart? She's an anomaly! It's so weird to think that, in such a science/mythology-driven series like Sonic, there's just some random witch running around (well, carting around) on a largely unimportant island with the power to turn things into crystal for no reason, as well as being the only human antagonist in the series to have anthropomorphic henchmen. Where did she get her powers? Why does she want to control the unnamed island so much? What do her followers see in her?

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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There was a thread about this on Sonic Retro recently:
http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=37930

Basically, it looks Tails Sky Patrol was originally a Disney game as some of the earlier sprites of Bearenger resemble Peg-leg Pete. All the other characters also seem to be based on Disney characters that were commonly used in Disney games. Even if it isn't true, it seems likely that they took inspiration from Disney.

Story wise: Lots of Sonic islands have magical elements, so it's not too far of a stretch that one would have a witch. Although why Tails felt compelled to visit this island and capture Wendy and her minions isn't clear. It doesn't look like they were harming anyone (The manual story even says there were no animals on the island). It's also never explained what Tails does with Wendy and her crew after capturing them.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

That makes sense. Witchcart is blatantly incognita!Grimhilde/Mizrabel. And Carrotia has vaguely reminded me of Lena Hyena.

Incidentally, how is Carrotia(キャロッティア) pronounced? "Care-row-she-uh" or "Carrot-ee-uh," or something else? I know Japanese letters are phonetic, but I'm entirely illiterate in this regard. (I'm partial towards care-row-she-uh, but whatever)

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by G.Silver »

"Kyaroteia" is the romanization, so a hard T, probably "Carro-tay-ah."

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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http://www.tssznews.com/2018/04/16/ian- ... idw-sonic/

Ian Flynn mentions that Sticks is considered part of the main game series. His comments tie in with Sticks Runners' profile, which also mentioned that she was a friend of Amy.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

The selfsame Sticks or an alternative continuity Sticks who has yet to appear?

If the latter, it sets a precedent for canonical elements not being a two-way street... For example, Little Planet could exist in a theoretical Game Gear continuity despite having never appeared in a GG game, while conversely GG elements could not exist in the primary continuity.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by big_smile »

It's probably an alternative continuity Sticks. While the badger hasn't appeared in any games (outside of a non-story appearance in Runners and the olympic games), she did have an episode in the official Sonic Team web comic, which furthers suggests that she's part of the universe. Although with Iizuka keen to trim the cast, there's a good chance she might never get a main game appearance.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Frieza2000 »

big_smile wrote:Lots of Sonic islands have magical elements
Can you name an example? The Sonic 1 manual gives the Chaos Emeralds an air of mysticism by stating they give energy to living beings, but I've always seen them as a kind of natural technology. They're a power source that certain organisms can draw from and manipulate and are perhaps especially suited to bending space-time. S&T had them keeping South Island afloat, but it doesn't say how (we have all kinds of hover technology). We have ghosts, which we can assume are supernatural, though it's never been explicitly said that they're actually the souls of the dead, but there's been no sign of necromancy so that's not magic. I think the closest we ever get in the main series is "the gods" intervening, but as far as we know you can't command them to do something, only pray to them through the Master Emerald and hope they decide to answer, so that doesn't qualify either.

Other than Witchcart and Lumina Flowlight (in a dream world, so it's debatable if that counts), the only time I can think of that we see magic is in the storybook games.

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