Frieza2000 wrote:I'm confident Taxman will deliver. In fact, I predict a return of super forms for Tails and Knuckles. As I see it, the Super Emeralds never went away (they never changed back to the old shape). We just went on calling them Chaos Emeralds to make things simple. Achieving Hyper Sonic may additionally require them to be harmonized with the Master Emerald, or it could just be that they retconned his appearance and Super Sonic has effectively been Hyper Sonic ever since (Super Sonic couldn't breath under water, but Hyper could, and we were definitely beyond the breathable atmosphere in SA2). If they want to explicitly fill in some of the holes, I think these are acceptable explanations.
chriscaffee wrote:The "explanation" is that we were looking at the top of the Emeralds in Sonic 1/2. That doesn't explain their cut in Sonic 3 (which is pentagonal in special stages, but is hexagonal when you drop them...wait... Weren't the Emeralds in Sonic 2 hexagonal as well...? Perhaps the Emeralds you collect in the Special Stage of Sonic 3, really are the set that Knuckles lost when the Death Egg crash landed on Angel Island. I never thought about the shape before because they change all the time anyway, but maybe the shape of the emeralds was actually more significant then I thought.)
Frieza2000 wrote:Luckily, I made this years ago:
It's kind of hard to tell whether the emeralds in Sonic 1 and Sonic 3 are octagonal or hexagonal, but in Sonic 2 and the mini view of Sonic 3 (when Sonic drops them) they're clearly hexagonal. Unless Knuckles has been hiding the original emeralds that he stole from Sonic all these years then the ones you collect in Sonic 3 have to be those same emeralds despite looking pentagonal in Blue Sphere.
The Master Emerald/Super Emeralds may actually have been pentagonal from the top originally; it's hard to tell at the angle we're given:
But the new Chaos and Master Emerald models are clearly octagonal when viewed from the top, so the "official" explanation can go perform anatomically impossible acts.
Big Smile has a great article on all of this that I would highly recommend. Without going too deep into it, my theory is that the emeralds were "downgraded" at some point after the incident with the Knuckle clan, splitting the 7 diamond emeralds into 14 weaker hexagonal emeralds (as seen in the mural at the end of Lost World). When the Death Egg crashed, the Master Emerald took it upon itself to hide Angel Island's emeralds in the special stage. When Sonic arrived at Hidden Palace, it sensed that he was the hero of legend and fused the Angel Island emeralds with his 7 emeralds, restoring their original form and giving him the power needed to face Eggman in Doomsday Zone. I really don't see any other way of interpreting that scene in S&K without just retconning Angel Island's set out of existence. None of the subsequent stories would make any sense if there were another set of emeralds (which Eggman explicitly knew about, BTW) hanging around.
I think the fact that the emeralds are consistently huge when placed on the shrine and normal sized the rest of the time was intentional. Remember how Sonic 1's manual said the emeralds "supply all life with amazing power" or something to that effect? I think the only time they actually do that is when they're in their proper place. Remember how Angel Island was unable to rise again in SA1's Last Story? Knuckles theorized that it was because he had brought 6 of the emeralds with him. The Master Emerald may have just willed the island back down to make Knuckles face Chaos or something like that, but I have...a long theory about how the Master Emerald automatically tries to neutralize the emeralds whenever they're in close proximity to it (or to harmonize with them, but if they're not in the correct position it doesn't work so they stay the same size), and there's not enough power left over to raise the island while it's doing that. This is why they were split in the first place; the Chao wanted to send the emeralds into the sky along with what was left of the Knuckle clan so they would be hidden and guarded from other greedy people, preventing half the world from being destroyed again like it had been by Perfect Chaos, but the Master Emerald couldn't manage it while it was interacting with the emeralds in their true form, so they split them, sent 7 up with the Knuckle clan, and hid the other 7 in South Island's interdimensional torsion (which is probably the same dimension that all of the special stages are in, just accessed from different portals). Not a flawless theory, but at least it doesn't retcon anything.
chriscaffee wrote:Well there are two possibilities. 1) There are two or moer sets of Chaos Emeralds (or were), or 2) there is only one set of Chaos Emeralds. The introduction to Knuckles' story in the Japanese Sonic 3 manual indicates that Knuckles was guarding a set of Chaos Emeralds on Angel Island that vanished. Then later he finds Sonic with the Chaos Emeralds. So in scenario 1) Sonic had a different set (from West Side Island) and Knuckles' set disappeared. The Super Emeralds are the fusion of these two Emerald sets, blessed by the Master Emerald.
In scenario 2), the Emeralds must be capable of existing in both the physical world and the Special Stage simultaneously. Physically they were present on Angel Island. Sonic went to the Special Stage via West Side Island, yoinked them, and took physical possession of them on West Side Island. This might explain why the Emeralds vibrated and disappeared in such a violent way. What it does not explain is how Sonic collected 6 of them on South Island, physically, without Knuckles noticing. It specifically says in the manual that when the Emeralds on Angel Island disappear that Knuckles never saw anything like that before.
I suppose Sonic could have snagged them in-between Knuckles' rounds on the island (he is fast), teleporting them to South Island, then when Sonic "frees" them at the end of Sonic 1, they settle into the Special Stage and physically relocate to Angel Island in order to fulfill the prophecy of Sonic 3 & Knuckles. These gems do have unlimited power and are almost always associated with deities so I'm willing to allow some "acts of the gods" allowing them to relocate.
In this scenario, the Super Emeralds are just Chaos Emeralds that are powered up by the Master Emerald. Remember that Super/Hyper Sonic's battle with "The Dragon" hatched from the Death Egg was prophesied, so perhaps Super Emeralds/Hyper forms were one-time divine intervention.
As a side note, before I respond to your second post, let's not forget this scene (4 seconds in) from the Japanese Sonic Adventure spot narrated by Tails. I remember the first time I saw this trailer in middle school. We have the Super Emeralds orbiting the Chaos Emeralds. Two sets of Emeralds.
Obviously it was cut content, but I think it speaks volumes. Two sets of Chaos Emeralds, one was boosted by the Master Emerald into Super Emeralds, the other remained a set of Chaos Emeralds. It might not be "canon" by the strictest definition, but Sonic Team was definitely throwing ideas around about the Super Emeralds for Sonic Adventure, and they weren't afraid to release test footage of them in an official marketing spot. I've seen some discussions and fan theories on the net, but I never have seen this material referenced, or even acknowledged.
Guess I should have read your next post without opening my big mouth. I'm down with this theory, although the aforementioned Tails video shows evidence that one set was "boosted" and a second set exists, and they never fused. Sure it's cut-content, but it's the last official content that directly references the Super Emeralds.
I think they always give power to life (and vice versa). The reason Eggman uses animals as batteries is because he siphons the "life energy" granted to them by the Chaos Emeralds. The reason Sonic was able to go Super at the end of Sonic Adventure was because the people of Station Square's hearts were positive which empowered the Chaos Emeralds.Frieza2000 wrote:I think the fact that the emeralds are consistently huge when placed on the shrine and normal sized the rest of the time was intentional. Remember how Sonic 1's manual said the emeralds "supply all life with amazing power" or something to that effect? I think the only time they actually do that is when they're in their proper place.
Angel Island rising an falling is problematic. We are led to believe that the Death Egg crashing onto the island pushes it into the ocean, yet it doesn't rise immediately when the Death Egg takes off in Launch Base Zone. Once the Death Egg is gone and the Master Emerald is returned, it rises instantly. In Sonic Adventure, Angel Island falling - unfortunately - is I think more a gameplay element then anything else. The only way Angel Island is accessible from the Mystic Ruins is when it crashes down. If it's floating in the Sky, they'd either have to rig a cutscene for Sonic to get there (and in what plane? Tornado 2 Prototype? Toast. Tornado? Toast? Tornado 2? Toast.) Also, in the past, Angel Island is still part of the Mystic Ruins, but the Master Emerald is present, and so are the Super/Chaos Emeralds, and all is well with the world, but the Island hasn't lifted yet. I'm tempted to re-read the Sonic 3/Knuckles back story and see if there is any indication that the island was already floating when it discusses the ancient civilization abusing the power of the "Mighty Stone." Could just be legends distorting history, or perhaps there were multiple events in Angel Island's history.Frieza2000 wrote:Remember how Angel Island was unable to rise again in SA1's Last Story?
Frieza2000 wrote:That's a neat idea, but it doesn't really work. I did actually check the S&K manual before posting:chriscaffee wrote:In scenario 2), the Emeralds must be capable of existing in both the physical world and the Special Stage simultaneously. Physically they were present on Angel Island. Sonic went to the Special Stage via West Side Island, yoinked them, and took physical possession of them on West Side Island. This might explain why the Emeralds vibrated and disappeared in such a violent way.The emeralds disappeared exactly when the Death Egg crashed through the roof of Hidden Palace (which is what knocks him out). Sonic had pulled the emeralds out of the special stage at least some significant time prior to that.Just as he was verifying that not one Chaos Emerald was out of place, the Chaos Emerald right before his eyes rose and a strange vibration started.
Knuckles was confused by this phenomenon, which had never occurred before. In the blink of an eye, violent shaking occurred within the Chaos Emeralds. Then, as the shaking reached its climax, a "kiiiin" sound was heard along with a brilliant flash. The next thing Knuckles remembered was his own body, seeming to be lightly floating, and at that moment he was interrupted.
When Knuckles regained consciousness, he found his body thrown outside of the altar. He slowly got up, and what entered his eyes as he looked around was the Chaos Emerald altar--partially destroyed. In a flurry, Knuckles flew into the altar. However, in place of the emerald that should have been there, were fragments left of what had disappeared...
In a daze, Knuckles left the altar. He gazed off into the distance, powerless... it seemed like a peculiar thing had appeared around the lake. The sight of the giant, round, egg-like body that Knuckles beheld sent a shiver down his spine.
Then Eggman shows up some days later and claims that Sonic stole his emeralds. It makes it sound like Eggman was the one who stole them, but obviously that's not what happened. It's a strange scene that's never been explained, but it's a pretty important one because it's the whole reason Knuckles attacks Sonic and steals the emeralds: he thinks he's stealing his own emeralds back (which suggests that they were also hexagonal, BTW).
I actually ran into that on GHZ while I was looking for the link to Smile's page. I agree with the comment; to me it just looks like they're showing a closeup and far away shot of them at the same time for some kind of visual effect. Again, if the intent of S&K was that the two sets both still exist then where did the other set go? If it was meant to be a cliffhanger or sequel fodder then it's a strange choice because the only place they ever appeared was the manual.chriscaffee wrote:let's not forget this scene (4 seconds in) from the Japanese Sonic Adventure spot narrated by Tails.
The launch of the Death Egg is actually even more problematic. From the manual:chriscaffee wrote:We are led to believe that the Death Egg crashing onto the island pushes it into the ocean, yet it doesn't rise immediately when the Death Egg takes off in Launch Base Zone.
Dr. Eggman, who had escaped from his fallen Death Egg, noticed that there is a Chaos Emerald on the Floating Island. From a fissure that the Death Egg had opened up in the ground, he could pick up the reactions of a huge Chaos Emerald. If he uses that energy, it may be possible for him to launch his Death Egg into outer space once more. To get hold of the Emerald, Dr. Eggman started building a base on the Floating Island.
How did it start to take off if he didn't have that second set of emeralds or the Master Emerald? Maybe it didn't quite have enough power to make it into space, but if that's the case then where was he going? Just a desperate attempt to keep Sonic from destroying it any further?
Yeah, the lifting of the island had to be an intentional thing that someone (either the Master or someone using its power) made it do. The Master Emerald doesn't just cause every landmass you plop it on to rise. Here's the manual blurb:chriscaffee wrote:Also, in the past, Angel Island is still part of the Mystic Ruins, but the Master Emerald is present, and so are the Super/Chaos Emeralds, and all is well with the world, but the Island hasn't lifted yet. I'm tempted to re-read the Sonic 3/Knuckles back story and see if there is any indication that the island was already floating when it discusses the ancient civilization abusing the power of the "Mighty Stone." Could just be legends distorting history, or perhaps there were multiple events in Angel Island's history.
That was retconned into the Perfect Chaos incident. Though there WERE two incidents because something killed off what was left of the echidnas (someone had to give birth to Knuckles but they're not there anymore, so it looks like a second disaster befell the clan in the recent past).This civilization had created a society of peace and abundance with the energy of the "Stone of Power". However, one day a sect of wise men attempting to take the energy of the "Stone of Power" for themselves accidentally let the energy run out of control. The civilization collapsed in an instant, and it disappeared from history altogether. After the incident, the gods, descending from the sky, rebuilt the civilization's land as an island and released the "Stone of Power" into the sky...or so they say.
chriscaffee wrote:The more I read your translation, the more it does sound like Knuckles is witnessing the Island fall. The translation I read was a bit more ambiguous and seemed to indicate that the Emeralds were on various alters throughout the island, as opposed to Hidden Palace Zone.
I think that scene was intentionally showing 14 Emeralds. Not sure why, not sure what is meant to represent, but showing the same set at two different scales doesn't make sense to me. Obviously, it was cut, so it doesn't matter, but still of interest. I think the idea of an original set of 7, split into two sets at some point in history makes the most sense, and then recombined in S3K.Frieza2000 wrote:Again, if the intent of S&K was that the two sets both still exist then where did the other set go?
That could be it. Perhaps it wasn't Big Arm being destroyed that knocked the Death Egg out of the sky, but Eggman was sort of "jumping" the Death Egg away from Sonic...or towards the fissure/Hidden Palace Zone?Frieza2000 wrote:How did it start to take off if he didn't have that second set of emeralds or the Master Emerald? Maybe it didn't quite have enough power to make it into space, but if that's the case then where was he going? Just a desperate attempt to keep Sonic from destroying it any further?
This is interesting. VERY INTERESTING. From Chaotix:Frieza2000 wrote:"This civilization had created a society of peace and abundance with the energy of the "Stone of Power". However, one day a sect of wise men attempting to take the energy of the "Stone of Power" for themselves accidentally let the energy run out of control. The civilization collapsed in an instant, and it disappeared from history altogether. After the incident, the gods, descending from the sky, rebuilt the civilization's land as an island and released the "Stone of Power" into the sky...or so they say."
After the civilization was destroyed, the Master Emerald was moved to Angel Island and the civilization was rebuilt there. So, is the Knuckles Clan the society that was destroyed? Or the one that was rebuilt?"There, Eggman found a small ring engraved with ancient text. Now he knew the island was indeed part of the lost civilization. He also finds another ring identical to the Super Ring on the Floating island. And it turned out to be a very special ring, one used in antiquity before the legendary civilization was lost.
"With this, I can access the Master Emerald once again" Eggman is elated by the discovery. However, the Powerstone (which the special ring could control) had already been removed to the Floating island by the gods descended from heaven."
If Knuckles Clan is the destroyed society, the Master Emerald could have started on the Mayan Shrine, which was part of the Mystic Ruins but not (what would become) Angel Island (hear me out). Knuckles Clan is destroyed, and the Master Emerald is relocated to the Hidden Palace Zone and Angel Island is pulled up into the sky. Some of the Mystic Ruins are buried in the jungle, others sink into the ocean from the tectonic action of lifting up Angel Island. The original shrine falls into the ocean.
After the events of Chaotix, Knuckles discovers the original Master Emerald shrine on the new risen Island. He salvages that shrine (somehow?) and brings it to Angel Island and relocates the Master Emerald to the original shrine and builds a little bridge from the Ice Cap mountains to the original shrine. This explains why the original shrine is geographically located somewhere else in the past in relation to the main temple. (It's basically straight away from the entrance and surrounded by hills and such, though the mountain that becomes Ice Cap is still visible. The mountain/volcano (Angel Island) rises. The dinky shrine sinks into the ocean (it's already surrounded by water, and presumably close to the coast. After discovering the ruins in the Neutrogic High Zone, Knuckles relocates the Shrine on Angel Island roughly where it sat in relation to the mountain. Not sure it's exact though.
Thoughts? The geography of Sonic Adventure MR/Angel Island is pretty confusing just between the present and the past, not counting the ruins that crumbled into the ocean. I really need to play that game again and maybe take some screenshots. Google isn't getting what I want.
Obviously SA1 sort of retcons this, but I think it fits close enough for a 3000 year old legend. The only part you have to change is that there are 2 societies involved: the Chao are the peaceful and prosperous society living under the blessing of the stone, and the Knuckle leadership (the 'wise men') are the ones who try to steal its power for themselves and unleash disaster. You could try to argue that this refers to a second disaster - that the surviving echidnas took the emerald and carried on for however long - but that's kind of redundant and also begs the question of who raised the floating island afterward and why any echidnas were allowed to go up with it, having caused civilization-ending disaster twice now. The end result in either case is that some time after the Perfect Chaos incident, someone uses the Master Emerald's power to raise a chunk of nearby land into the sky along with the remnant of the Knuckle clan and 1 set of Chaos Emeralds. I like to think that the remaining members of the Knuckle Clan wanted to do penance for their sins and agreed to devote themselves to the task of guarding the gems. I also like to think it was all the Chao's idea, but that's my fanon.
You're using Smile's old translation of the Chaotix manual. Here's the newer one (in full, just so you have it):
The way I read it, the Super-Rings/Special Rings Eggman found on Neutrogic High Zone are the Hyper Rings from S&K that take you to Hidden Palace. They did indeed take him to Hidden Palace, as he expected, but the Master Emerald was no longer being kept there. Who moved it is sort of vague. "The gods descended from heaven/descending gods" probably refers to the Master Emerald itself, or whatever deities are channeled through it. Why? Maybe because it wasn't safe on the Pillar anymore? Maybe to 'uncap' the Pillar and let its power raise Neutrogic High Zone? In any case, since the same Hyper Ring portals appear on both Angel Island and the new ruins, they're probably both from the same civilization. One could argue that the Chao set up the ring portals before the echidnas went up and that the ruins belonged to them, but it's much more likely that it was a technology the Knuckle Clan had mastered before attacking the shrine (or a naturally occurring phenomenon in the geographic region surrounding the Pillar, or something the Master Emerald set up itself). Either way, I agree that Neutrogic High Zone was most likely a part of the Mystic Ruins that sunk as a result of Angel Island's first liftoff. I'd never thought of that before; nice theory crafting there.Somewhere out there lies the Floating Island. A few months have passed since the events that have caused the island to be skimming on the ocean's surface. However, it is in the seas to the south where, in the ocean's deepest depths, a great upheaval occurred, and suddenly the shape of a single island appeared. It was the result of a great increase in the activity of the earths crust, which was caused by the power of the Floating Island's Master Emerald "Pillar". Not stopping there, in just a very short while, it changed its appearance [with tremendous speed].
The Energy of the Pillar had changed the island that was a mere clump of boulders into a paradise of green.
"Is there something over there...?"
The guardian of the Master Emerald Pillar, Knuckle, had his questions about the sudden change in the island that was continuing without interruption. The remains of the legendary civilization that had, in ancient times, disappeared in the blink of an eye because of the wildly running "Stone of Power", may be sleeping on that island. "Something is definitely making the power of the Pillar amplify." Thought Knuckle as he headed toward the island alone, taking to heart his responsibility as guardian.
However, he wasn't the only one thinking this. That genius scientist of ill-repute, Dr. Eggman, was another, and he had already gotten on the island to investigate. There, he discovered a ring with ancient letters carved on it. He understood then that this island was truly the part of the ancient civilization that had been lost. Furthermore, he found two rings that were spitting images of the Super-Rings that were on the Floating Island. These were ancient Special Rings that had been used before the legendary civilization had been lost.
"With these, I'll find my way right back to the Master Emerald!"
Dr. Eggman was pleased with his discovery, but the "Stone of Power" that the Special Rings should have led him to had already been transferred [to somewhere else] in the Floating Island by the descending gods. However, the energy of the "Pillar" permeated in the mysterious space the Special Rings produced, and they crystallized into the Chaos Rings.
"If I search out the secret of the Special Rings, I'll not only get the secret of the rings that Sonic and his friends carry, but I'll also be able summon the Master Emerald!"
With this on his mind, Dr. Eggman hurried to establish a fort on the island. On the grounds of this resort, which had been named "Neutrogic High Zone", Dr. Eggman's evil plan surged. When Knuckle arrived nearby the island, it was already too late. Eggman was successful at crystallizing energy. He christened his synthesized rings "Dark Rings". And furthermore, he was developing a "Ring Power" that forced the existence of a space-time connection between rings.
"If I've got these, they won't be able to lift a finger against me. This should be over with little trouble. This time, the whole world will be mine!"
Dr. Eggman's treacherous plans are steadily being realized.
The idea that the SA1 emerald shrine was part of Neutrogic High Zone is interesting, but it's uncertain. Why would the Master Emerald only join that little part of it to Angel Island and not the whole zone? Actually, is Neutrogic High Zone floating? Because if it's not, how would Knuckles get back home after exploring it?
Is the shrine's location inconsistent in the past vs the present? I thought it was close enough. The path that leads there is straight ahead of the Mayan Temple's front entrance. We don't know how far you actually walk when the game transitions from there to the shrine, but that is basically the right direction. Where is the Icecap mountain in the past? This is the part we may need to get our own screenshots for.
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