Revenge of the nerds

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Frieza2000
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Revenge of the nerds

Post by Frieza2000 »

So chriscaffee suddenly appeared and we started talking about Sonic Mania and somehow my prediction of a return of super forms for Tails and Knuckles turned into the biggest Sonic lore discussion I've had in at least 5 years, maybe 10. I thought I'd stopped caring, but I guess my passion for encyclopedic Sonic factoids just needed to have the embers stirred. Anyway, I thought we'd move it here to involve those of you who are into that sort of thing (also because there's no length limits here). Here's the jist of it so far:
Frieza2000 wrote:I'm confident Taxman will deliver. In fact, I predict a return of super forms for Tails and Knuckles. As I see it, the Super Emeralds never went away (they never changed back to the old shape). We just went on calling them Chaos Emeralds to make things simple. Achieving Hyper Sonic may additionally require them to be harmonized with the Master Emerald, or it could just be that they retconned his appearance and Super Sonic has effectively been Hyper Sonic ever since (Super Sonic couldn't breath under water, but Hyper could, and we were definitely beyond the breathable atmosphere in SA2). If they want to explicitly fill in some of the holes, I think these are acceptable explanations.
chriscaffee wrote:The "explanation" is that we were looking at the top of the Emeralds in Sonic 1/2. That doesn't explain their cut in Sonic 3 (which is pentagonal in special stages, but is hexagonal when you drop them...wait... Weren't the Emeralds in Sonic 2 hexagonal as well...? Perhaps the Emeralds you collect in the Special Stage of Sonic 3, really are the set that Knuckles lost when the Death Egg crash landed on Angel Island. I never thought about the shape before because they change all the time anyway, but maybe the shape of the emeralds was actually more significant then I thought.)
Frieza2000 wrote:Luckily, I made this years ago:
Chaos Emerald Chart
Chaos Emerald Chart
emeralds.png (140.57 KiB) Viewed 16460 times
It's kind of hard to tell whether the emeralds in Sonic 1 and Sonic 3 are octagonal or hexagonal, but in Sonic 2 and the mini view of Sonic 3 (when Sonic drops them) they're clearly hexagonal. Unless Knuckles has been hiding the original emeralds that he stole from Sonic all these years then the ones you collect in Sonic 3 have to be those same emeralds despite looking pentagonal in Blue Sphere.

The Master Emerald/Super Emeralds may actually have been pentagonal from the top originally; it's hard to tell at the angle we're given:

Image

But the new Chaos and Master Emerald models are clearly octagonal when viewed from the top, so the "official" explanation can go perform anatomically impossible acts.

Image
Image
Image

Big Smile has a great article on all of this that I would highly recommend. Without going too deep into it, my theory is that the emeralds were "downgraded" at some point after the incident with the Knuckle clan, splitting the 7 diamond emeralds into 14 weaker hexagonal emeralds (as seen in the mural at the end of Lost World). When the Death Egg crashed, the Master Emerald took it upon itself to hide Angel Island's emeralds in the special stage. When Sonic arrived at Hidden Palace, it sensed that he was the hero of legend and fused the Angel Island emeralds with his 7 emeralds, restoring their original form and giving him the power needed to face Eggman in Doomsday Zone. I really don't see any other way of interpreting that scene in S&K without just retconning Angel Island's set out of existence. None of the subsequent stories would make any sense if there were another set of emeralds (which Eggman explicitly knew about, BTW) hanging around.

I think the fact that the emeralds are consistently huge when placed on the shrine and normal sized the rest of the time was intentional. Remember how Sonic 1's manual said the emeralds "supply all life with amazing power" or something to that effect? I think the only time they actually do that is when they're in their proper place. Remember how Angel Island was unable to rise again in SA1's Last Story? Knuckles theorized that it was because he had brought 6 of the emeralds with him. The Master Emerald may have just willed the island back down to make Knuckles face Chaos or something like that, but I have...a long theory about how the Master Emerald automatically tries to neutralize the emeralds whenever they're in close proximity to it (or to harmonize with them, but if they're not in the correct position it doesn't work so they stay the same size), and there's not enough power left over to raise the island while it's doing that. This is why they were split in the first place; the Chao wanted to send the emeralds into the sky along with what was left of the Knuckle clan so they would be hidden and guarded from other greedy people, preventing half the world from being destroyed again like it had been by Perfect Chaos, but the Master Emerald couldn't manage it while it was interacting with the emeralds in their true form, so they split them, sent 7 up with the Knuckle clan, and hid the other 7 in South Island's interdimensional torsion (which is probably the same dimension that all of the special stages are in, just accessed from different portals). Not a flawless theory, but at least it doesn't retcon anything.
chriscaffee wrote:Well there are two possibilities. 1) There are two or moer sets of Chaos Emeralds (or were), or 2) there is only one set of Chaos Emeralds. The introduction to Knuckles' story in the Japanese Sonic 3 manual indicates that Knuckles was guarding a set of Chaos Emeralds on Angel Island that vanished. Then later he finds Sonic with the Chaos Emeralds. So in scenario 1) Sonic had a different set (from West Side Island) and Knuckles' set disappeared. The Super Emeralds are the fusion of these two Emerald sets, blessed by the Master Emerald.

In scenario 2), the Emeralds must be capable of existing in both the physical world and the Special Stage simultaneously. Physically they were present on Angel Island. Sonic went to the Special Stage via West Side Island, yoinked them, and took physical possession of them on West Side Island. This might explain why the Emeralds vibrated and disappeared in such a violent way. What it does not explain is how Sonic collected 6 of them on South Island, physically, without Knuckles noticing. It specifically says in the manual that when the Emeralds on Angel Island disappear that Knuckles never saw anything like that before.

I suppose Sonic could have snagged them in-between Knuckles' rounds on the island (he is fast), teleporting them to South Island, then when Sonic "frees" them at the end of Sonic 1, they settle into the Special Stage and physically relocate to Angel Island in order to fulfill the prophecy of Sonic 3 & Knuckles. These gems do have unlimited power and are almost always associated with deities so I'm willing to allow some "acts of the gods" allowing them to relocate.

In this scenario, the Super Emeralds are just Chaos Emeralds that are powered up by the Master Emerald. Remember that Super/Hyper Sonic's battle with "The Dragon" hatched from the Death Egg was prophesied, so perhaps Super Emeralds/Hyper forms were one-time divine intervention.

As a side note, before I respond to your second post, let's not forget this scene (4 seconds in) from the Japanese Sonic Adventure spot narrated by Tails. I remember the first time I saw this trailer in middle school. We have the Super Emeralds orbiting the Chaos Emeralds. Two sets of Emeralds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nzMFrDycj8

Obviously it was cut content, but I think it speaks volumes. Two sets of Chaos Emeralds, one was boosted by the Master Emerald into Super Emeralds, the other remained a set of Chaos Emeralds. It might not be "canon" by the strictest definition, but Sonic Team was definitely throwing ideas around about the Super Emeralds for Sonic Adventure, and they weren't afraid to release test footage of them in an official marketing spot. I've seen some discussions and fan theories on the net, but I never have seen this material referenced, or even acknowledged.
...
Guess I should have read your next post without opening my big mouth. I'm down with this theory, although the aforementioned Tails video shows evidence that one set was "boosted" and a second set exists, and they never fused. Sure it's cut-content, but it's the last official content that directly references the Super Emeralds.
Frieza2000 wrote:I think the fact that the emeralds are consistently huge when placed on the shrine and normal sized the rest of the time was intentional. Remember how Sonic 1's manual said the emeralds "supply all life with amazing power" or something to that effect? I think the only time they actually do that is when they're in their proper place.
I think they always give power to life (and vice versa). The reason Eggman uses animals as batteries is because he siphons the "life energy" granted to them by the Chaos Emeralds. The reason Sonic was able to go Super at the end of Sonic Adventure was because the people of Station Square's hearts were positive which empowered the Chaos Emeralds.
Frieza2000 wrote:Remember how Angel Island was unable to rise again in SA1's Last Story?
Angel Island rising an falling is problematic. We are led to believe that the Death Egg crashing onto the island pushes it into the ocean, yet it doesn't rise immediately when the Death Egg takes off in Launch Base Zone. Once the Death Egg is gone and the Master Emerald is returned, it rises instantly. In Sonic Adventure, Angel Island falling - unfortunately - is I think more a gameplay element then anything else. The only way Angel Island is accessible from the Mystic Ruins is when it crashes down. If it's floating in the Sky, they'd either have to rig a cutscene for Sonic to get there (and in what plane? Tornado 2 Prototype? Toast. Tornado? Toast? Tornado 2? Toast.) Also, in the past, Angel Island is still part of the Mystic Ruins, but the Master Emerald is present, and so are the Super/Chaos Emeralds, and all is well with the world, but the Island hasn't lifted yet. I'm tempted to re-read the Sonic 3/Knuckles back story and see if there is any indication that the island was already floating when it discusses the ancient civilization abusing the power of the "Mighty Stone." Could just be legends distorting history, or perhaps there were multiple events in Angel Island's history.
Frieza2000 wrote:
chriscaffee wrote:In scenario 2), the Emeralds must be capable of existing in both the physical world and the Special Stage simultaneously. Physically they were present on Angel Island. Sonic went to the Special Stage via West Side Island, yoinked them, and took physical possession of them on West Side Island. This might explain why the Emeralds vibrated and disappeared in such a violent way.
That's a neat idea, but it doesn't really work. I did actually check the S&K manual before posting:
Just as he was verifying that not one Chaos Emerald was out of place, the Chaos Emerald right before his eyes rose and a strange vibration started.

Knuckles was confused by this phenomenon, which had never occurred before. In the blink of an eye, violent shaking occurred within the Chaos Emeralds. Then, as the shaking reached its climax, a "kiiiin" sound was heard along with a brilliant flash. The next thing Knuckles remembered was his own body, seeming to be lightly floating, and at that moment he was interrupted.

When Knuckles regained consciousness, he found his body thrown outside of the altar. He slowly got up, and what entered his eyes as he looked around was the Chaos Emerald altar--partially destroyed. In a flurry, Knuckles flew into the altar. However, in place of the emerald that should have been there, were fragments left of what had disappeared...

In a daze, Knuckles left the altar. He gazed off into the distance, powerless... it seemed like a peculiar thing had appeared around the lake. The sight of the giant, round, egg-like body that Knuckles beheld sent a shiver down his spine.
The emeralds disappeared exactly when the Death Egg crashed through the roof of Hidden Palace (which is what knocks him out). Sonic had pulled the emeralds out of the special stage at least some significant time prior to that.

Then Eggman shows up some days later and claims that Sonic stole his emeralds. It makes it sound like Eggman was the one who stole them, but obviously that's not what happened. It's a strange scene that's never been explained, but it's a pretty important one because it's the whole reason Knuckles attacks Sonic and steals the emeralds: he thinks he's stealing his own emeralds back (which suggests that they were also hexagonal, BTW).
chriscaffee wrote:let's not forget this scene (4 seconds in) from the Japanese Sonic Adventure spot narrated by Tails.
I actually ran into that on GHZ while I was looking for the link to Smile's page. I agree with the comment; to me it just looks like they're showing a closeup and far away shot of them at the same time for some kind of visual effect. Again, if the intent of S&K was that the two sets both still exist then where did the other set go? If it was meant to be a cliffhanger or sequel fodder then it's a strange choice because the only place they ever appeared was the manual.
chriscaffee wrote:We are led to believe that the Death Egg crashing onto the island pushes it into the ocean, yet it doesn't rise immediately when the Death Egg takes off in Launch Base Zone.
The launch of the Death Egg is actually even more problematic. From the manual:

Dr. Eggman, who had escaped from his fallen Death Egg, noticed that there is a Chaos Emerald on the Floating Island. From a fissure that the Death Egg had opened up in the ground, he could pick up the reactions of a huge Chaos Emerald. If he uses that energy, it may be possible for him to launch his Death Egg into outer space once more. To get hold of the Emerald, Dr. Eggman started building a base on the Floating Island.

How did it start to take off if he didn't have that second set of emeralds or the Master Emerald? Maybe it didn't quite have enough power to make it into space, but if that's the case then where was he going? Just a desperate attempt to keep Sonic from destroying it any further?
chriscaffee wrote:Also, in the past, Angel Island is still part of the Mystic Ruins, but the Master Emerald is present, and so are the Super/Chaos Emeralds, and all is well with the world, but the Island hasn't lifted yet. I'm tempted to re-read the Sonic 3/Knuckles back story and see if there is any indication that the island was already floating when it discusses the ancient civilization abusing the power of the "Mighty Stone." Could just be legends distorting history, or perhaps there were multiple events in Angel Island's history.
Yeah, the lifting of the island had to be an intentional thing that someone (either the Master or someone using its power) made it do. The Master Emerald doesn't just cause every landmass you plop it on to rise. Here's the manual blurb:
This civilization had created a society of peace and abundance with the energy of the "Stone of Power". However, one day a sect of wise men attempting to take the energy of the "Stone of Power" for themselves accidentally let the energy run out of control. The civilization collapsed in an instant, and it disappeared from history altogether. After the incident, the gods, descending from the sky, rebuilt the civilization's land as an island and released the "Stone of Power" into the sky...or so they say.
That was retconned into the Perfect Chaos incident. Though there WERE two incidents because something killed off what was left of the echidnas (someone had to give birth to Knuckles but they're not there anymore, so it looks like a second disaster befell the clan in the recent past).
chriscaffee wrote:The more I read your translation, the more it does sound like Knuckles is witnessing the Island fall. The translation I read was a bit more ambiguous and seemed to indicate that the Emeralds were on various alters throughout the island, as opposed to Hidden Palace Zone.
Frieza2000 wrote:Again, if the intent of S&K was that the two sets both still exist then where did the other set go?
I think that scene was intentionally showing 14 Emeralds. Not sure why, not sure what is meant to represent, but showing the same set at two different scales doesn't make sense to me. Obviously, it was cut, so it doesn't matter, but still of interest. I think the idea of an original set of 7, split into two sets at some point in history makes the most sense, and then recombined in S3K.
Frieza2000 wrote:How did it start to take off if he didn't have that second set of emeralds or the Master Emerald? Maybe it didn't quite have enough power to make it into space, but if that's the case then where was he going? Just a desperate attempt to keep Sonic from destroying it any further?
That could be it. Perhaps it wasn't Big Arm being destroyed that knocked the Death Egg out of the sky, but Eggman was sort of "jumping" the Death Egg away from Sonic...or towards the fissure/Hidden Palace Zone?
Frieza2000 wrote:"This civilization had created a society of peace and abundance with the energy of the "Stone of Power". However, one day a sect of wise men attempting to take the energy of the "Stone of Power" for themselves accidentally let the energy run out of control. The civilization collapsed in an instant, and it disappeared from history altogether. After the incident, the gods, descending from the sky, rebuilt the civilization's land as an island and released the "Stone of Power" into the sky...or so they say."
This is interesting. VERY INTERESTING. From Chaotix:
"There, Eggman found a small ring engraved with ancient text. Now he knew the island was indeed part of the lost civilization. He also finds another ring identical to the Super Ring on the Floating island. And it turned out to be a very special ring, one used in antiquity before the legendary civilization was lost.

"With this, I can access the Master Emerald once again" Eggman is elated by the discovery. However, the Powerstone (which the special ring could control) had already been removed to the Floating island by the gods descended from heaven."
After the civilization was destroyed, the Master Emerald was moved to Angel Island and the civilization was rebuilt there. So, is the Knuckles Clan the society that was destroyed? Or the one that was rebuilt?

If Knuckles Clan is the destroyed society, the Master Emerald could have started on the Mayan Shrine, which was part of the Mystic Ruins but not (what would become) Angel Island (hear me out). Knuckles Clan is destroyed, and the Master Emerald is relocated to the Hidden Palace Zone and Angel Island is pulled up into the sky. Some of the Mystic Ruins are buried in the jungle, others sink into the ocean from the tectonic action of lifting up Angel Island. The original shrine falls into the ocean.

After the events of Chaotix, Knuckles discovers the original Master Emerald shrine on the new risen Island. He salvages that shrine (somehow?) and brings it to Angel Island and relocates the Master Emerald to the original shrine and builds a little bridge from the Ice Cap mountains to the original shrine. This explains why the original shrine is geographically located somewhere else in the past in relation to the main temple. (It's basically straight away from the entrance and surrounded by hills and such, though the mountain that becomes Ice Cap is still visible. The mountain/volcano (Angel Island) rises. The dinky shrine sinks into the ocean (it's already surrounded by water, and presumably close to the coast. After discovering the ruins in the Neutrogic High Zone, Knuckles relocates the Shrine on Angel Island roughly where it sat in relation to the mountain. Not sure it's exact though.

Thoughts? The geography of Sonic Adventure MR/Angel Island is pretty confusing just between the present and the past, not counting the ruins that crumbled into the ocean. I really need to play that game again and maybe take some screenshots. Google isn't getting what I want.


Obviously SA1 sort of retcons this, but I think it fits close enough for a 3000 year old legend. The only part you have to change is that there are 2 societies involved: the Chao are the peaceful and prosperous society living under the blessing of the stone, and the Knuckle leadership (the 'wise men') are the ones who try to steal its power for themselves and unleash disaster. You could try to argue that this refers to a second disaster - that the surviving echidnas took the emerald and carried on for however long - but that's kind of redundant and also begs the question of who raised the floating island afterward and why any echidnas were allowed to go up with it, having caused civilization-ending disaster twice now. The end result in either case is that some time after the Perfect Chaos incident, someone uses the Master Emerald's power to raise a chunk of nearby land into the sky along with the remnant of the Knuckle clan and 1 set of Chaos Emeralds. I like to think that the remaining members of the Knuckle Clan wanted to do penance for their sins and agreed to devote themselves to the task of guarding the gems. I also like to think it was all the Chao's idea, but that's my fanon.

You're using Smile's old translation of the Chaotix manual. Here's the newer one (in full, just so you have it):
Somewhere out there lies the Floating Island. A few months have passed since the events that have caused the island to be skimming on the ocean's surface. However, it is in the seas to the south where, in the ocean's deepest depths, a great upheaval occurred, and suddenly the shape of a single island appeared. It was the result of a great increase in the activity of the earths crust, which was caused by the power of the Floating Island's Master Emerald "Pillar". Not stopping there, in just a very short while, it changed its appearance [with tremendous speed].

The Energy of the Pillar had changed the island that was a mere clump of boulders into a paradise of green.

"Is there something over there...?"

The guardian of the Master Emerald Pillar, Knuckle, had his questions about the sudden change in the island that was continuing without interruption. The remains of the legendary civilization that had, in ancient times, disappeared in the blink of an eye because of the wildly running "Stone of Power", may be sleeping on that island. "Something is definitely making the power of the Pillar amplify." Thought Knuckle as he headed toward the island alone, taking to heart his responsibility as guardian.

However, he wasn't the only one thinking this. That genius scientist of ill-repute, Dr. Eggman, was another, and he had already gotten on the island to investigate. There, he discovered a ring with ancient letters carved on it. He understood then that this island was truly the part of the ancient civilization that had been lost. Furthermore, he found two rings that were spitting images of the Super-Rings that were on the Floating Island. These were ancient Special Rings that had been used before the legendary civilization had been lost.

"With these, I'll find my way right back to the Master Emerald!"

Dr. Eggman was pleased with his discovery, but the "Stone of Power" that the Special Rings should have led him to had already been transferred [to somewhere else] in the Floating Island by the descending gods. However, the energy of the "Pillar" permeated in the mysterious space the Special Rings produced, and they crystallized into the Chaos Rings.


"If I search out the secret of the Special Rings, I'll not only get the secret of the rings that Sonic and his friends carry, but I'll also be able summon the Master Emerald!"

With this on his mind, Dr. Eggman hurried to establish a fort on the island. On the grounds of this resort, which had been named "Neutrogic High Zone", Dr. Eggman's evil plan surged. When Knuckle arrived nearby the island, it was already too late. Eggman was successful at crystallizing energy. He christened his synthesized rings "Dark Rings". And furthermore, he was developing a "Ring Power" that forced the existence of a space-time connection between rings.

"If I've got these, they won't be able to lift a finger against me. This should be over with little trouble. This time, the whole world will be mine!"

Dr. Eggman's treacherous plans are steadily being realized.
The way I read it, the Super-Rings/Special Rings Eggman found on Neutrogic High Zone are the Hyper Rings from S&K that take you to Hidden Palace. They did indeed take him to Hidden Palace, as he expected, but the Master Emerald was no longer being kept there. Who moved it is sort of vague. "The gods descended from heaven/descending gods" probably refers to the Master Emerald itself, or whatever deities are channeled through it. Why? Maybe because it wasn't safe on the Pillar anymore? Maybe to 'uncap' the Pillar and let its power raise Neutrogic High Zone? In any case, since the same Hyper Ring portals appear on both Angel Island and the new ruins, they're probably both from the same civilization. One could argue that the Chao set up the ring portals before the echidnas went up and that the ruins belonged to them, but it's much more likely that it was a technology the Knuckle Clan had mastered before attacking the shrine (or a naturally occurring phenomenon in the geographic region surrounding the Pillar, or something the Master Emerald set up itself). Either way, I agree that Neutrogic High Zone was most likely a part of the Mystic Ruins that sunk as a result of Angel Island's first liftoff. I'd never thought of that before; nice theory crafting there.

The idea that the SA1 emerald shrine was part of Neutrogic High Zone is interesting, but it's uncertain. Why would the Master Emerald only join that little part of it to Angel Island and not the whole zone? Actually, is Neutrogic High Zone floating? Because if it's not, how would Knuckles get back home after exploring it?

Is the shrine's location inconsistent in the past vs the present? I thought it was close enough. The path that leads there is straight ahead of the Mayan Temple's front entrance. We don't know how far you actually walk when the game transitions from there to the shrine, but that is basically the right direction. Where is the Icecap mountain in the past? This is the part we may need to get our own screenshots for.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/u744v1zfV1A/maxresdefault.jpg
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/son ... _Alter.png

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chriscaffee
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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by chriscaffee »

The way I read it, the Super-Rings/Special Rings Eggman found on Neutrogic High Zone are the Hyper Rings from S&K that take you to Hidden Palace. They did indeed take him to Hidden Palace, as he expected, but the Master Emerald was no longer being kept there. Who moved it is sort of vague. "The gods descended from heaven/descending gods" probably refers to the Master Emerald itself, or whatever deities are channeled through it. Why? Maybe because it wasn't safe on the Pillar anymore? Maybe to 'uncap' the Pillar and let its power raise Neutrogic High Zone? In any case, since the same Hyper Ring portals appear on both Angel Island and the new ruins, they're probably both from the same civilization.
With this reading of the text, perhaps the SA shrine was always part of Angel Island, and the Master Emerald was relocated to that shrine following the events of Sonic & Knuckles? After all, Eggman knows where it was, and then EggRobo and Mecha Sonic steal it a short while later.
One could argue that the Chao set up the ring portals before the echidnas went up and that the ruins belonged to them, but it's much more likely that it was a technology the Knuckle Clan had mastered before attacking the shrine (or a naturally occurring phenomenon in the geographic region surrounding the Pillar, or something the Master Emerald set up itself). Either way, I agree that Neutrogic High Zone was most likely a part of the Mystic Ruins that sunk as a result of Angel Island's first liftoff. I'd never thought of that before; nice theory crafting there.

The idea that the SA1 emerald shrine was part of Neutrogic High Zone is interesting, but it's uncertain. Why would the Master Emerald only join that little part of it to Angel Island and not the whole zone? Actually, is Neutrogic High Zone floating? Because if it's not, how would Knuckles get back home after exploring it?
Maybe that's why Sonic and Tails show up in the Tornado at the end? To give him a lift back home? :D
Is the shrine's location inconsistent in the past vs the present? I thought it was close enough. The path that leads there is straight ahead of the Mayan Temple's front entrance. We don't know how far you actually walk when the game transitions from there to the shrine, but that is basically the right direction. Where is the Icecap mountain in the past? This is the part we may need to get our own screenshots for.
After taking some screens and looking at maps, it seems to be inconsistent. Sort of. First, assuming the large twin-peaked mountain we see in the past, is the same as much different peak formation we see in the present, then the mountain and the shrine are roughly in the same spot in relation to each other: between the purple and blue Chaos Emerald pillars:

Image

Now this mountain is interesting. In the past it is a solid peak. In the present it is not. If it's the same mountain, then perhaps this was the fissure the Death Egg opened when it crash-landed in the lake, and then later, landed in directly after Launch Base Zone. That would explain why the mountain changed shape. It almost looks like it could be hollow in the present, and many have theorized that Red Mountain and Lava Reef are one and the same.

Now, as for the mini-island shrine orientation. Here is a fun little graphic I whipped up. Basically there are a couple things to keep in mind. Angel Island, I don't believe, fell from where it was lifted. It appears to have rotated about 90 degrees counter-clockwise and dropped to the west of where it originally was.

Image

Also note that it is at much HIGHER elevation where it fell, then it is from where it started. Assuming the game isn't trying to trick us, the shrine was basically at the same elevation as the temple. The temple had the first tier or two buried in the rain forest, and the shrine is now floating high above the "surface" of Angel Island, which is itself, high above the "surface" of the mystic ruins, which is on a cliff face at a higher elevation still to the temple:

Image

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big_smile
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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by big_smile »

Sadly, I haven’t had time to read this excellent thread in full. But here’s some random thoughts:

Knuckles’ Mega Collection Profile (in the Japanese Strategy guide) mentions that the Master Emerald powered up the Chaos Emeralds, which is a big piece evidence for the re-powering theory.

Over the years, I’ve submitted several questions to Iizukia for the US Sonic Boom event. One of them involved the Super Emeralds. He responded by saying that after Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic Team felt that there were too many Emeralds, so for Sonic Adventure, they went back to 7. Which probably puts an end to any theories about the Super Emeralds. He’s also mentioned that Hyper Sonic and Super Tails no longer exist.

More recently Iizukia has confirmed that the Sonic games take place on two planets (Earth and ‘Sonic’s World’). So I guess it’s possible both planet has their own set of emeralds (maybe the extra set in Sonic 3 comes from one of these worlds).

Regarding Super Tails and Knuckles in Sonic Mania: The Taxman/Stealth Remakes do allow you to play as Super versions of all 3 characters, but only in the special cheat mode. In the Sonic 2, you can only play as Super Sonic & Super Knuckles in normal mode. I wouldn’t be surprised if Mania does the same (i.e. Super Sonic in the main game and Super Tails/Knuckles in cheat mode).

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

A couple points y'all missed: Angel Island rests at three altitudes, not just the two, depending on what set of Emeralds are collected and whether the Death Egg is weighing it down. In Knuckles' ending the island rests atop the thermosphere if all Super Emeralds are collected. This seems too high for the DE to land on it initially guaging how high it was in S2.

Secondly, echidnas hatch from eggs. Knuckles could have been layed millennia ago only to be hatched by the Master Emerald in time for the prophecy.

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chriscaffee
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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by chriscaffee »

Knuckles’ Mega Collection Profile (in the Japanese Strategy guide) mentions that the Master Emerald powered up the Chaos Emeralds, which is a big piece evidence for the re-powering theory.
I think this is clear in the game because, correct me if I'm wrong, but each time you get a Super Emerald, a circle of stars is emitted from the Master Emerald and then it touches whichever de-powered Super Emerald you just earned, causing it to glow.
Over the years, I’ve submitted several questions to Iizukia for the US Sonic Boom event. One of them involved the Super Emeralds. He responded by saying that after Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic Team felt that there were too many Emeralds, so for Sonic Adventure, they went back to 7. Which probably puts an end to any theories about the Super Emeralds. He’s also mentioned that Hyper Sonic and Super Tails no longer exist.
Yeah, I don't have any illusions that the Super Emeralds will make a return. The direction of the series has made it very clear that only hedgehogs (and Blaze) get Super forms, and old characters with Super forms will never get theirs back. Because...reasons. Honestly that was driven home pretty hard in Sonic Heroes. Super Sonic/Super Shadow tag-team match? What could be more epic other than the original STK in their Super forms walloping on Metal Sonic? Haha, nope. Instead of Metal Sonic, you get Perfect Chaos BioHazard Metal Sonic. And we all know the Chaos Emerald/Master Emerald guardian doesn't rate a Super form.
More recently Iizukia has confirmed that the Sonic games take place on two planets (Earth and ‘Sonic’s World’). So I guess it’s possible both planet has their own set of emeralds (maybe the extra set in Sonic 3 comes from one of these worlds).
I'm not buying this. I mean, I'm sure he has said it, but it just doesn't make any sense. It's kind of the setting for Sonic X, but that really isn't canon. And if he's saying that it applies to the games too, it comes off as more of a desperate retcon then anything else. Retcons are okay I suppose, but if we are analyzing story content from years BEFORE the retcon, I think the retcon shouldn't be considered. As a for instance, in SA2, the planet is called Earth. SA2 has an in-universe newspaper that references Station Square, meaning that Station Square is also on Earth. Sonic Adventure has Angel Island, which means that Angel Island is also on Earth. Now in the anime, it Chaos Controlled to Earth from Sonic's World, but in Sonic Adventure, we have flashbacks to 4000 (or was it 3000?) years ago where Angel Island was still part of the Mystic Ruins...which are on Earth. So if Sonic Adventure is on Earth, then Chaotix and Sonic 3 & Knuckles must also be on Earth (because Angel Island). Even if we want to pretend that Angel Island originated on Earth, went to Sonic's World, then went back to Earth in time for Sonic Adventure, how is it that Sonic and the gang NEVER talk about this at all? And this concept didn't exist until Sonic X was a thing. And if we are assuming classic games are on Sonic's World and modern games are on Earth, then South Island also has to dimension hop as well since it's on the world map of Sonic Adventure 2.

Unless I'm missing something from recent games that explains all this, two planets just doesn't make sense to me at all. Unless one of them is Little. ;D

Honestly, I think Freiza's theory makes the most sense, with a few tweaks: There were 7 Chaos Emeralds back in the day. After the first Perfect Chaos event they were split into two weaker "half-strength" sets. One of these weaker sets was enough to power up someone to a Super form (see Sonic 2/3). Sonic re-united the two sets of emeralds in Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Now they are fully powered Chaos Emeralds, still enough to boost one (or more) characters to a Super form (see Sonic Adventure 2/Heroes). The Master Emerald boosted them even further into the "Super Emeralds," perhaps as divine intervention. Sonic became Hyper Sonic and defeated Eggman, fulfilling the prophecy/legend. Since the prophecy was fulfilled, the Master Emerald hasn't since had a reason to boost the 7 Chaos Emeralds into the Super Emeralds. But now they are re-united into a single, more powerful set, allowing multiple Super transformations, simpler canon, and the non-existence of Hyper forms, while still retaining the diamond-cut shape of S3K. In Sonic Adventure, when Chaos "absorbs" their power, they turn into "dead" emeralds that resemble the dead emeralds from S3K. Those dead emeralds were one set of the weaker Chaos Emeralds. We know Perfect Chaos absorbed the negative power of the emeralds, but not the positive...meaning that they were "half-strength" Chaos Emeralds, and Sonic was still able to transform with them - because he had always been transforming with half-strength Chaos Emeralds until he reunited the two sets in S3K.

Now I've also heard that Chaos actually full drained the Chaos Emeralds and that the positive thinking of the people of Station Square re-powered the emeralds allowing Sonic to transform. If that's the case, the theory still works, Chaos just drained all the power, and the Chaos Emeralds got reboosted by the real super power of teamwork and happy thoughts. We know from Sonic 1 that the Emeralds distribute life energy to all living creatures, so it's possible they could "give it back" when needed in a moment of crisis.
A couple points y'all missed: Angel Island rests at three altitudes, not just the two, depending on what set of Emeralds are collected and whether the Death Egg is weighing it down. In Knuckles' ending the island rests atop the thermosphere if all Super Emeralds are collected. This seems too high for the DE to land on it initially guaging how high it was in S2.
The Death Egg was definitely outside of the atmosphere both in Sonic 2 and Sonic & Knuckles. It probably could have landed on Angel Island, even if it was at it's higher altitude. It likely didn't matter though, since before the Death Egg lands on Angel Island, there are only Chaos Emeralds there and not Super Emeralds. When the Death Egg bounces from Launch Base to Hidden Palace, the Island doesn't immediately lift when alleviated by the Death Egg's weight. I think the implication is that the Death Egg crashing on the island somehow damaged the "mystical energy" keeping the island afloat. That's why Knuckles' Chaos Emeralds vanish perhaps?
Secondly, echidnas hatch from eggs. Knuckles could have been layed millennia ago only to be hatched by the Master Emerald in time for the prophecy.
This is actually pretty fantastic. I love this idea. Perhaps the Master Emerald choosing to "hatch" Knuckles was the restoration of the Knuckles Clan that is described in the Sonic 3 backstory. This is pretty perfect actually! It also explains why when Knuckles monologues in Sonic Adventure he acts like he doesn't really know where he came from or why he inherited his duty. If he was raised by parents that later died, at least he would have less doubt. Yes. This is an awesome idea. I love it.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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big_smile wrote:More recently Iizukia has confirmed that the Sonic games take place on two planets (Earth and ‘Sonic’s World’).
...WHAT?!

...I'm sorry, WHAT?!

How does that even...how would the characters go from one to th...and nobody's ever...ok, Iizuka has officially lost the right to be heard. Chris, thank you for calmly debunking that because I wasn't even going to bother.

Props for sending him the questions, though.
chriscaffee wrote:
big_smile wrote:Knuckles’ Mega Collection Profile (in the Japanese Strategy guide) mentions that the Master Emerald powered up the Chaos Emeralds, which is a big piece evidence for the re-powering theory.
I think this is clear in the game because, correct me if I'm wrong, but each time you get a Super Emerald, a circle of stars is emitted from the Master Emerald and then it touches whichever de-powered Super Emerald you just earned, causing it to glow.
Not exactly. Stars come into the emerald, but not from the Master. Once you've activated all 7, the Master Emerald gives off a ring of stars that go off the edge of the screen, then it starts pulsating. Though I understand why you'd think that; that is the way I first interpreted the scene. In fact, my original theory actually retconned the second set of emeralds, and the downgrade took place by having the Master absorb a fraction of power from each Chaos Emerald, which it gave back in Hidden Palace.

I think the fusion theory can do a better job of explaining these cutscenes, though. What happens when you first enter Hidden Palace is that the Master Emerald changes the physical form of Sonic's emeralds, enabling them to hold more power, but the second set of emeralds is still in the Special Stage where it hid them, so Sonic has to go and retrieve them. The stars would then represent the power of the Angel Island emerald merging into the half-powered Chaos Emerald (which looks just like the grey-scale dead/half-powered emeralds from SA1! I totally didn't think of that until I read your post!).
chriscaffee wrote:Maybe that's why Sonic and Tails show up in the Tornado at the end? To give him a lift back home? :D
There are also the Hyper Rings on the island that lead directly to Hidden Palace, but Knuckles didn't know about them and I doubt he would be comfortable relying on Sonic. Or leaving the emerald unguarded for long. Maybe he took it with him and crashed the island, solving both problems.
chriscaffee wrote:The Master Emerald boosted them even further into the "Super Emeralds," perhaps as divine intervention.
You're right that the restored 7 emeralds would be more powerful, and this in itself could account for the breathing and ability to transform multiple hedgehogs, so the Super Emeralds can be a separate thing. We could incorporate the normal/giant size phenomenon into this explanation. When the emeralds are placed on the shrine, they become Super Emeralds. We know from SA2 and Sonic 06 that you don't actually have to be in physical contact with the emeralds to maintain super form, or even anywhere near them. The fact that the Super Emeralds remain in Hidden Palace throughout the game appears to supports this. However, in the other examples the transformation itself takes place close to the emeralds, whereas in S&K we see a cinematic transformation into Hyper Sonic during Doomsday Zone, so it's a little different. We could say that the Master Emerald has sort of 'synced' Sonic to the Super Emeralds for the time being so that he can transform from a great distance (this could be what its pulsing animation is supposed to represent).

The emeralds were giant at the end of SA2 though, and we don't appear to have gotten hyper forms during the Final Hazard fight. It could be that transforming two hedgehogs at once prevented either from reaching Hyper.
chriscaffee wrote:When the Death Egg bounces from Launch Base to Hidden Palace, the Island doesn't immediately lift when alleviated by the Death Egg's weight.
It may just not have had time. That boss fight only takes, what, 3-5 minutes? Or the Master Emerald may have willed to stay on the ground, similar to the end of SA1.

Attacking my own theory that the ME can't raise the island while the emeralds are on the shrine, it appears to do exactly this at the end of S&K. Sonic transforms into Hyper Sonic during the credits, so apparently the emeralds haven't gone back into the Special Stage yet and are presumable still sitting on the shrine (we see in the scene that Sonic didn't deposit the Master Emerald in Hidden Palace, so I doubt he went and picked them up).

chriscaffee wrote:If it's the same mountain, then perhaps this was the fissure the Death Egg opened when it crash-landed in the lake, and then later, landed in directly after Launch Base Zone.
I love the thought that they did this intentionally. I'd believe it too, given some of the other little nods in the game.

Thanks for the screenshots. I think you've got the location and orientation of the shrine and Angel Island in relation to each other right. The place you have them on the map could be right, but it can go almost anywhere. We know the island drifts (it doesn't land near any land mass in SA1). Tikal was able to walk there and back several times, so it can't be more than a few miles away from the temple, but I think there must've been some kind of barrier either hiding it or making it difficult to access, otherwise the Knuckle Clan would've found it and attacked it much sooner. We know they certainly got around. Recall this from the lost world:
Image
Image

And this from the SA1 guide:
Taking the chance after the death of his mother who was in the moderate party, Pachacamac leads his people in the conquest to rule the whole land. Transforming from a community of ruffians into a powerful fighting squad, they quickly subdued their neighbors.
Tikal acted like she'd never been there before, and obviously had never seen the Master Emerald. The guide seems to indicate that they had located it before Tikal went there, though.

Problem with the idea of the original shrine being risen with Neutrogic High Zone: if the original shrine is where you have it marked, where's the rest of Neutrogic High Zone? We know it rose as an island, so it wouldn't be connected to the rest of the Mystic Ruins (unless the entire Mystic Ruins IS Neutrogic High Zone...). Could Stations Square have been Neutrogic High Zone? After Eggman left, people moved in? It IS on the ocean, and just a short distance from the MR. Does anyone remember any NPC dialogue that would preclude this? It would actually be kind of funny that Eggman, having lost control of the zone after Chaotix, was immediately trying to take it back and rebuild the theme park there in SA1 (it WAS described as a "resort" in Chaotix, and Eggman Land does sound like the name of a theme park, confirmation from Unleashed aside). That would require some echidna ruins to be mixed in there, though. Maybe both SS and MR are part of the zone? How long had those archeologists been digging?


We should probably sit down and reread all of the literature before we continue. Adding further clarity to our musing about the ancient civilization, the SA1 guide states:
Suffering a powerful blow from Chaos, the Knuckles were significantly weakened. Those remaining from the tribe were given to watching over the Master Emerald, living on the fringe of the altar levitated by the Master Emerald's Power. Their responsibility was making sure that something like this never happened again, guarding and protecting the Master Emerald.
This proves that 1) the original shrine was part of Angel Island from the first (I guess you could read 'fringe' as meaning an area not connected to it...), 2) there was only 1 incident where the echidna civilization was destroyed prior to the raising of the island, and 3) several members of the Knuckle Clan survived and lived on Angel Island for some period. A heretofore unexplained incident results in their disappearance, save one.
Losing the emeralds, the Chao people faced extinction, but a number of them managed to find a place to survive.
So the Chao did NOT retain a set of emeralds. This still fits with the theory though: they immediately cast them into South Island's torsion to hide them and to prevent themselves from being targeted again.
The poem tells of a pure “power” neither good nor evil contained within the Chaos Emeralds themselves, and the need for this power to be restrained by the Master Emerald.
Huh. This actually supports my idea that the Master Emerald is constantly trying to neutralize the Chaos Emeralds. Neat.
Sonic and his comrades used “faith” to drawn on the power of the Chaos Emeralds, and faced Chaos again. This “power of the heart” filled the emptiness within Chaos’ own, appeasing his anger.
This seems to defeat the notion that the cheering of the crowd recharged the emeralds. It just gave them access to their positive power (the whole reason Chaos only took the negative energy is because his heart was consumed with anger, and apparently your disposition determines what you're able to do with the emeralds). Though I guess a liberal reading could admit the "power of the Chaos Emeralds" as being the same power that was within their hearts. I lean solidly the other way. Consider the poem: Chaos is power enriched by the heart; the controller is the one who serves to unify the chaos. Is the controller really the Master Emerald as Tikal assumed, or does this refer to the person who calls upon them, commanding their power through the will of their heart?
chriscafee wrote: Perhaps the Master Emerald choosing to "hatch" Knuckles was the restoration of the Knuckles Clan that is described in the Sonic 3 backstory. ... It also explains why when Knuckles monologues in Sonic Adventure he acts like he doesn't really know where he came from or why he inherited his duty. If he was raised by parents that later died, at least he would have less doubt.
Even given the text above proving there were other echidnas on Angel Island at one time, this is still possible. However...I know Knuckles is pretty tough, but could he really fend for himself as a hatchling? How did he learn to talk? Yes, one would expect him to have some memories of his parents even if they vanished when he was 2, but not necessarily. Or it could be repressed memories from a traumatic event. I wouldn't call bringing back one echidna restoring the clan, either.


Another aside that's always bothered me: what is the Pillar? It seems to have no connection to the original emerald shrine. Was it always in the depths of the mountain that became Angel Island, or was it moved there after the Perfect Chaos incident? Could this have been where the Master Emerald was first discovered, the shrine being a man-made construct used to harness its power? Energy from the pillar crystallizes inside of the Hyper Rings and forms the Chaos Rings, so we know it has power independent of the Master Emerald. Could it be connected to the rings?

I think I have more things bouncing around in my head, but this'll have do for one night.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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Frieza2000 wrote:The emeralds were giant at the end of SA2 though, and we don't appear to have gotten hyper forms during the Final Hazard fight.
Correction: the emeralds were giant while they were on the Ark shrine. Sonic and Shadow removed them while transforming and they changed back to normal size, so this doesn't pose a problem...except for raising the question of why in the world they would choose to transform with regular emeralds instead of Super Emeralds. Chaos did the same thing when he transformed to kill the Knuckle tribe. Maybe they didn't know removing them would shrink them and didn't think there was enough time to put them back? The "they've been Super Emeralds since S&K" theory doesn't have this problem but offers no intuitive explanation of the size changing, so I guess they're even for now.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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How does that even...how would the characters go from one to th...and nobody's ever...
I actually asked him about how it works on Facebook (a while ago he was quite active answering questions):
Aaron Webber (Community manager of Sega of America) stated that the Sonic games are set on two separate planets. Is that true?
Yes.

What are the names of the two planets? Also how does Sonic travel between them?
there are no name yet.

How does Sonic travel between the two planets. Does he use a spaceship or a teleportation gate? Thanks!
nobody knows...
I think the two planets thing is nonsense, but starting with Sonic Colours, they no longer call the planet Earth, but "Sonic's World", so I guess it's the direction they are going with.
Although I don't imagine travelling between the worlds is as complicated as in Sonic X (especially if Angel Island can make the journey).

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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Has anyone considered that maybe Chaos Emeralds might actually be sort of common? We usually only see one set of Chaos Emeralds at a time but maybe there are no "sets," and the colors are just there for our convenience as players--in actuality what matters is collecting a certain number of them and the colors don't matter. I always thought it was weird that the Chaos Emeralds showed up in places like Station Square, and they're all like "oh here, just take this Chaos Emerald we don't need it," like it's no big deal at all, even though they must surely recognize what it is! It makes sense that some places like South Island might be particularly rich in these resources, but if all life is tied to them then I think they would be found everywhere. If they are "common" and the Super Emeralds happen to be a powered up set then that would also make them particularly unique and important.

I used to think that it was the same set every time and you were pulling them to different locations via the Special Stages, but since apparently you can just find a Chaos Emerald lying on the ground or whatever, must not necessarily be the case.
big_smile wrote:More recently Iizukia has confirmed that the Sonic games take place on two planets (Earth and ‘Sonic’s World’). So I guess it’s possible both planet has their own set of emeralds (maybe the extra set in Sonic 3 comes from one of these worlds).
I think that what he is actually saying is that sometimes the games take place on Earth and other times they take place in some other place where normal rules don't apply. It's just your classic Tenchi Muyo situation: they do what they like and they don't worry about consistency. Or he could have been referencing the whole "Mobius" thing on the western side, less of a canonical answer and more of a political one.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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Even given the text above proving there were other echidnas on Angel Island at one time, this is still possible. However...I know Knuckles is pretty tough, but could he really fend for himself as a hatchling? How did he learn to talk?
Maybe the animal friends raised Knuckles as in the Japanese Sonic 3 manual, it says Knuckles and the animals are friends (we see this in the Sonic & Knuckles opening). Plus in Sonic Runners, Knuckles is the only one who can talk to the animal friends without needing Omochao to translate (although this could easily just be a mistake).
But then SA1 implies he lives alone (unless the animals left after S3&K).

---
Some more random observations:

In Sonic Runners, Knuckles says he keeps the Master Emerald hidden in a temple, which allows him to go on adventures without fearing that the Master Emerald will end up in Eggman's hands. Angel Island is never mentioned, but presumably the temple is on "Sonic's World" and must somehow transmit the Master Emerald energies to keep Angel Island a float.

I wonder if this temple has any connection to the Mystic Ruins or the Emerald temples in Sonic Unleashed.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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big_smile wrote:I think the two planets thing is nonsense
Actually, I think G.Silver may be on to something. Maybe it's referring to the fact that there are multiple game continuities now (Prime and Boom). I actually recall hearing someone say that Classic and Modern are considered separate continuities now; your question might be what they were referring to. If you replace the word planet with universe/continuity then it's...still vile - you can please both fanbases without physically dividing the lore - but at least it's not outright absurd. It follows their current product releases anyway: Mania is Classic, 2017 is Modern (with a guest appearance from Classic...?), and Fire&Ice is Boom.
G.Silver wrote:Has anyone considered that maybe Chaos Emeralds might actually be sort of common?
This was certainly the Western take on it (Sonic Spinball, Archie, etc). It's possible that Sonic Team thought this way even as late as S&K. It does sort of look like the Master Emerald was growing out of the Pillar, they weren't afraid to introduce other random gems of power (Time Stones, Chaos Rings), and at face value it would seem strange for the South Island emeralds to be the same ones the gods sealed away on Westside Island, or that they would somehow end up on Cocoa Island (Tails Adventure). But by the time we get to SA1, even discounting Smile's above report that they explicitly wanted to reduce the number of emeralds to 7, the games definitely start to give that impression. That said, if they're not completely unique, they are at least rare.
The Chaos Emeralds are a super-material that give energy to all living beings. Also, when applied to scientific purposes, they can be used for nuclear and laser based weaponry. However, nobody knows exactly how to get a hold of these emeralds.
...
"I'll find those emeralds even if I have to dig up the entire island to do it!"
So apparently they're not easy to come by. They HAVE been found before (GUN had a set 50 years ago, which is presumably how it was known as of Sonic 1 that they can be used to create weapons), but they're rare enough that Eggman has to go on some vague legend about a set residing on South Island to get his hands on them rather than, say, breaking into a military installation and stealing a few. He goes after the South Island emeralds several times, too (Sonic 1 MD+MS, Sonic 2 MS, Sonic Chaos, Sonic Labyrinth, and G Sonic)
I've found it at last! The place where the Chaos Emeralds sleep! Following Sonic worked out perfectly! Now I should be able to finish my ultimate weapon: The Death Egg! I'll be waiting for you, Sonic! This time, my friend, this time I will beat you, and all the Emeralds will be mine!
You're more qualified to tell us whether or not the original text gives the impression that he's talking about all THE emeralds or just all THESE emeralds, but this translation makes it sound like they're at least pretty unique.

Yes, it's strange that we happen to find them in a Casino and lying around in the Mystic Ruins and sitting on top of Ice Cap (how did it get up there?! Was Knuckles hording it?) since after previous games they always ended up back in the Special Stage, but it's not impossible.
big_smile wrote:Maybe the animal friends raised Knuckles
You and those damn animal friends, Smile! ...but you're right. That's probably the best explanation anyone could give.

Back on the subject of the ancient civilization, this is from Sonic 2's manual:
[The Legend of West Side Island]
They say that a very long time ago, the people of this island used mysterious stones to advance their civilization, and they achieved great prosperity. However, when those people people tried to use the stones in the wrong way, their prosperity vanished overnight. After that, they say that the gods sealed the stones away somewhere on the island.
Since we know from Neutrogic High Zone that the ancient civilization had access to ring portals, and from the SA1 guide that the Knuckle Clan was engaged in an empire building campaign, it's not hard to imagine that they had also conquered Westside Island, thus associating it with a similar legend.
Frieza2000 wrote:Tikal was able to walk there and back several times, so it can't be more than a few miles away from the temple
Actually, if the echidnas had mastered ring portals, this wouldn't be a factor.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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DBZ guy wrote:Not exactly. Stars come into the emerald, but not from the Master. Once you've activated all 7, the Master Emerald gives off a ring of stars that go off the edge of the screen, then it starts pulsating. Though I understand why you'd think that; that is the way I first interpreted the scene. In fact, my original theory actually retconned the second set of emeralds, and the downgrade took place by having the Master absorb a fraction of power from each Chaos Emerald, which it gave back in Hidden Palace.

I think the fusion theory can do a better job of explaining these cutscenes, though. What happens when you first enter Hidden Palace is that the Master Emerald changes the physical form of Sonic's emeralds, enabling them to hold more power, but the second set of emeralds is still in the Special Stage where it hid them, so Sonic has to go and retrieve them. The stars would then represent the power of the Angel Island emerald merging into the half-powered Chaos Emerald (which looks just like the grey-scale dead/half-powered emeralds from SA1! I totally didn't think of that until I read your post!).
Just to clarify on my fusion idea. 7 Chaos Emeralds split into 14 Lesser Chaos Emeralds. The 14 Lesser are reunited into the 7 (Original) Chaos Emeralds. Then the Master Emeralds boosts them into Super Emeralds. Post S3K, the emeralds are not still "Super Emeralds" but they are still the 2 lesser sets fused. That's why we don't have Hyper forms in SA2...etc, but there are still multiple Super transformations. That's the theory anyway. So there is a distinct difference between the United Green Chaos Emerald and the Green Super Emerald. So in my theory the "Super Emeralds" were a one time thing related to the prophecy of Sonic defeating Eggman on Angel Island. The Master Emerald just chooses not to boost them in other scenarios, so only Super forms are possible.
We could incorporate the normal/giant size phenomenon into this explanation. When the emeralds are placed on the shrine, they become Super Emeralds.
The problem with the emerald's size is that I think it is mostly for aesthetics. When Sonic handles the Emeralds in the real world (Sonic 3, Sonic Adventure) they are roughly fist sized and hand held. In Special Stages they are usually the size of his body or head. They are larger still in Hidden Palace Zone when he needs to use them as platforms, and they are the biggest ever...in Sonic Adventure's Action Stages, because they are goals that the player has to be able to pick out at a distance. The Emeralds in Ice Cap and Windy Valley are bigger than the Master Emerald. It's pretty ridiculous. They are also "big" I imagine in Sonic Adventure/2s Shrine, so that when the camera zooms out, you can still make out all the Emeralds clearly. When characters are handling them, they are small. When they are part of the scenery and need to be noticed, they are bigger. I could be wrong, but I think the Action Stages at least show that Emerald size is at least partially due to game considerations, rather then exclusively story-telling.

Also a note on the glowing. I know Big_Smile did an analysis of the ME glowing quite in depth. Also including Sonic Adventure.

http://archive.sonichq.net/newsite/fanf ... 27-03B.php
It may just not have had time. That boss fight only takes, what, 3-5 minutes? Or the Master Emerald may have willed to stay on the ground, similar to the end of SA1.
I imagine it was more of the latter (or just something overlooked by the devs) or that the Death Egg did some kind of "damage" to the Master Emerald causing it to not work properly, when it smashed into the island. The Chaos Emeralds Knuckles was guarding certainly seemed to react negatively to the Death Egg's appearance.
I love the thought that they did this intentionally. I'd believe it too, given some of the other little nods in the game.
I hope so, otherwise those maps are meaningless! :D
The place you have them on the map could be right, but it can go almost anywhere. We know the island drifts (it doesn't land near any land mass in SA1). Tikal was able to walk there and back several times, so it can't be more than a few miles away from the temple, but I think there must've been some kind of barrier either hiding it or making it difficult to access, otherwise the Knuckle Clan would've found it and attacked it much sooner.
I could be misremembering, but I believe there was a mystical barrier of sorts protecting the shrine. I also think Pachacamac was being tempered by Tikal's grandmother until she died. Perhaps the threat of the Nocturnus or whoever forced Pachadamac's hand.
Problem with the idea of the original shrine being risen with Neutrogic High Zone: if the original shrine is where you have it marked, where's the rest of Neutrogic High Zone? We know it rose as an island, so it wouldn't be connected to the rest of the Mystic Ruins (unless the entire Mystic Ruins IS Neutrogic High Zone...).
It could have mystically drifted off the coast some ways (along with other ruins), or as you said, the entire MR/SS area could be the Neutrogic High Zone. Additionally the shrine could be unrelated, but portions of the MR could have sank into the ocean and formed the Neutrogic High Zone (perhaps that Island that Eggman launches a missile from?)? Or the NHZ could be a seperate set of ruins from the same civilization that just used the Hyper Rings to travel between the MR and the NHZ?
This proves that 1) the original shrine was part of Angel Island from the first (I guess you could read 'fringe' as meaning an area not connected to it...), 2) there was only 1 incident where the echidna civilization was destroyed prior to the raising of the island, and 3) several members of the Knuckle Clan survived and lived on Angel Island for some period. A heretofore unexplained incident results in their disappearance, save one.
Unless there is more, technically all it says is that the Altar is levitated. I think that much is obvious since the Altar was broken free of the stone bridge leading to it from the Echidna ruins. Perhaps it broke free first. Then later the land mass that would become Angel Island was also lifted once the surviving Echidnas learned how to use the Controller.
This seems to defeat the notion that the cheering of the crowd recharged the emeralds. It just gave them access to their positive power (the whole reason Chaos only took the negative energy is because his heart was consumed with anger, and apparently your disposition determines what you're able to do with the emeralds). Though I guess a liberal reading could admit the "power of the Chaos Emeralds" as being the same power that was within their hearts. I lean solidly the other way. Consider the poem: Chaos is power enriched by the heart; the controller is the one who serves to unify the chaos. Is the controller really the Master Emerald as Tikal assumed, or does this refer to the person who calls upon them, commanding their power through the will of their heart?
That's right. I mis-remembered. The Power of Positive Thinking is what neutralized Chaos' negative emotions, not what powered the Emeralds.

Now, some new maps. I decided to make an assumption. Let's say that the Altar was always part of Angel Island - this is not technically definitive in the quote you posted as it speaks of a levitating altar, not a levitating mountain or island. But for the sake of this example, I'm assuming that from the time of the Knuckles Clan to the present, the Altar and "Angel Island" (or the land that would become Angel Island) are fixed in relation to each other. What always bothered me was that the Altar is so high above the surface of Angel Island, yet it seems to be sitting in some very shallow waters in the past. What happened to all the "ground" between the Altar and what would become the surface of Angel Island below it? Well, when I mapped it out, I might have figured it out. That lush landscape you see below the altar, could have been the sea floor, assuming a VERY sharp drop off at the MR coast. Basically an under-water cliff. I linked it because it's a wide image, don't know if it'll mess up the board or not.

http://imageshack.com/a/img924/4610/33mIYE.png
I think the two planets thing is nonsense, but starting with Sonic Colours, they no longer call the planet Earth, but "Sonic's World", so I guess it's the direction they are going with.
Although I don't imagine travelling between the worlds is as complicated as in Sonic X (especially if Angel Island can make the journey).
Sonic's like nonsense to me. If they want to call it something different, that's fine, but if they are going to make the claim that there are two actual PLANETs that different Sonic games take place on without actually saying which games take place on which, and it's never acknowledged in-universe, it seems pretty pointless to me. It's seems to be a difference without a distinction. Eggman was always Eggman. But then he was Robotnik for one line of dialog in Sonic Adventure and now he is Eggman. But then they introduced Robotnik to the Japanese, but he is still Eggman. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter because functionally, in all parts of the world he is now Eggman, even though "technically he is Robotnik." That's how I see this "two planets nonsense."

Alternatively, is their possibly something lost in translation or a cultural nuance we might be missing? After all, doesn't Sonic Colors literally have a SEPERATE PLANET called Planet Wisp? I'm going by Sonic Generations here, because I'm not a Wii-player. Is it possible this 2 planet talk started with Sonic Colors to differentiate the Planet Wisp from Earth (which they now prefer to call Sonic's World, maybe because there is no Planet Wisp anywhere near Earth)? Also am I the only one that wan'ts to Facebook-stalk big_smile?
Has anyone considered that maybe Chaos Emeralds might actually be sort of common? We usually only see one set of Chaos Emeralds at a time but maybe there are no "sets," and the colors are just there for our convenience as players--in actuality what matters is collecting a certain number of them and the colors don't matter. I always thought it was weird that the Chaos Emeralds showed up in places like Station Square, and they're all like "oh here, just take this Chaos Emerald we don't need it," like it's no big deal at all, even though they must surely recognize what it is! It makes sense that some places like South Island might be particularly rich in these resources, but if all life is tied to them then I think they would be found everywhere. If they are "common" and the Super Emeralds happen to be a powered up set then that would also make them particularly unique and important.
I think that works out fine in the classic games. Multiple Emerald sets or just multiple Emeralds PERIOD could work right up until Sonic Adventure. I believe Izuka has firmly stated that from Sonic Adventure onward we will only ever see 7 at a time, and that any more then that is too many. I suppose technically that doesn't mean there can't be more then 7 "in universe" but we will never see a game where that happens again (S3K, Sonic the Fighters...)...except in Sonic Adventure 2 where Tails makes a fake Emerald powerful enough for Sonic to use the Chaos Control technique that he has never used before. And then fake Emeralds are never mentioned again. lol.
I used to think that it was the same set every time and you were pulling them to different locations via the Special Stages, but since apparently you can just find a Chaos Emerald lying on the ground or whatever, must not necessarily be the case.
Well that make sense as well. The "single set" theory really doesn't work once you introduce Sonic 3 where Knuckles is guarding a set and Sonic already has a set. You can skirt around it. I tried to earlier in the thread, but it's a stretch. The two sets thing makes sense to me because of the mural of Perfect Chaos and re-uniting them into the Super Emeralds/Modern Chaos Emeralds.

Another theory I had, which sounds meta, but wasn't intended to be, was that the Chaos Emeralds are whatever they need to be, when the gods need them to be. Sometimes they need to be 6 on South Island, so that's the way they are. Then they need to be 7 on West Side Island, so that's what they are. There needed to be a set on Angel Island, so now we have 14. After the two sets are united and the prophecy is fulfilled, only 7 are needed and Hyper powers aren't necessary, so now they are the way they are. You could replace "gods" with "devs" but since Sonic 1, myths and legends surrounding the Emeralds have been described as divine supernatural events. We also have Chaos who is called a god.
I think that what he is actually saying is that sometimes the games take place on Earth and other times they take place in some other place where normal rules don't apply. It's just your classic Tenchi Muyo situation: they do what they like and they don't worry about consistency. Or he could have been referencing the whole "Mobius" thing on the western side, less of a canonical answer and more of a political one.
This makes more sense to me. Perhaps "Sonic Lost World" and the Story Book series fit into this "other world?"
In Sonic Runners, Knuckles says he keeps the Master Emerald hidden in a temple, which allows him to go on adventures without fearing that the Master Emerald will end up in Eggman's hands. Angel Island is never mentioned, but presumably the temple is on "Sonic's World" and must somehow transmit the Master Emerald energies to keep Angel Island a float.

I wonder if this temple has any connection to the Mystic Ruins or the Emerald temples in Sonic Unleashed.
The temple could still be on Angel Island. There are altars and temples in a lot of the ruins in various Sonic games and Angel Island probably has plenty of it's fair share.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by chriscaffee »

Yes, it's strange that we happen to find them in a Casino and lying around in the Mystic Ruins and sitting on top of Ice Cap (how did it get up there?! Was Knuckles hording it?) since after previous games they always ended up back in the Special Stage, but it's not impossible.
Another note on Icecap, the Action Stage. Balloon festival and a winter village on Angel Island?!
Since we know from Neutrogic High Zone that the ancient civilization had access to ring portals, and from the SA1 guide that the Knuckle Clan was engaged in an empire building campaign, it's not hard to imagine that they had also conquered Westside Island, thus associating it with a similar legend.
I always assumed it was a fox-based civilization on West Side Island with Tails being the last of his kind?
Actually, if the echidnas had mastered ring portals, this wouldn't be a factor.
There is a "door" a couple hundred feet from the Shrine that leads to the Temple. The Shrine is the same architecture as the Knuckles Clan, so they definitely built a "road" to the Altar, even if it isn't "right outside" their Temple as implied by the game.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Frieza2000 »

On emeralds being common:
Yet, according to Tails' testimony, the Knuckles had a mantra passed on by oral tradition that said "there are seven chaos in the world and this chaos is power, and this power is drawn from the heart. He who controls the world is he who controls this chaos," and it is believed to be speaking about the emeralds.
Exact wording is probably critical here again, but this appears to be a clear declaration from SA1 that we have 7 from now on.
caffeiiiiiiiiiiiiiine wrote:The problem with the emerald's size is that I think it is mostly for aesthetics.
That was my original impression before playing S3&K. After reading Smile's report I think I'm with you on this. They were probably not big in SA1+2 in-lore. Though it's much harder to dismiss them being huge in-lore in Hidden Palace because you are actually required to stand on them, whereas in all the other instances you're expected to be viewing them from a distance. It could be that they're only huge when they're surrounding the Pillar rather than the Master Emerald (Eggman removing the Master Emerald didn't cause them to shrink, after all).

So we're on the same page with the splitting/fusion part, I just see 3 possibilities for the Super Emeralds. 1) They have been Super since S&K, 2) The Master Emerald has to give them some energy to boost them to Super Emeralds, 3) They become Super Emeralds when placed around the Pillar. I'm good with any of them. It has no effect on my pet theories, which are what really matter in the end, right?
big_smile's article wrote:When Sonic first enters Hidden Palace the Master Emerald is not shining. When all the Super Emeralds are collected, the Master Emerald starts shining. Based on this, its safe to assume that when the Super Emeralds are fully restored (i.e. Sonic has collected their energies from the special stages), the Super Emeralds are able to ‘heal’ the Master Emerald.
That would seem to require that the Chaos Emeralds have a consciousness behind them, which we've never seen elsewhere. Also, if the Master Emerald had access to the "emerald parts" of the Angel Island emeralds (which this assumes were destroyed; I think because the older translation made it sound that way), why would it need Sonic to retrieve the energy part? And if it had access to that energy, couldn't it heal itself? I think that the idea that the Master Emerald was 'broken' and the ring of stars it gives off represent it being healed is workable, but requiring the Chaos Emeralds to fix it rubs me the wrong way. Knuckles could fixed the thing when it was in pieces with no help. I prefer the idea that it's become active in response to the Super Emeralds, but what that activity could be is anyone's guess.

Nice catch that it doesn't glow in the past. I don't remember if I noticed that when I was researching it (~12 years ago now). In the past there was obviously nothing wrong with it, so I wouldn't use the word "heal" to describe whatever caused the glowing. Also, it appears to be glowing even when it's in pieces. ...maybe it's just because it's catching the sunlight, whereas in the past it's under a roof? :P I can't really think of a good explanation for this right now. If we associate the glowing in S&K, which was clearly intentional, with the glowing in SA1, which was probably intentional, then SOMETHING about the creation of the Super Emeralds either changed the Master Emerald or made it start doing some kind of activity, which it continues doing even when it's incomplete. Maybe it has something to do with Chaos+Tikal?
big_smile's article wrote:In Super Sonic’s story, we see Angel Island falling. Knuckles thinks it must have something to do with the Chaos Emeralds he brought back. But if the Chaos Emeralds were causing the fall, then Angel Island should go back in the sky when the Emeralds are removed. This doesn’t happen.
This one I didn't think about. Ok, I'm fully dropping the idea that the Master Emerald can't raise the island in the presence of Chaos Emeralds.

I could be misremembering, but I believe there was a mystical barrier of sorts protecting the shrine.
Ah, right, I think that was some NPC dialogue. And one of those texts did say that they were guarded by the power of the emeralds. Ok, there we go. And yes, his mother was restraining him. "Pachacamac, after the death of his mother who was from the moderate party, gathered his people to subdue the other peoples to expand his kingdom. When he came to know about the seven emeralds, he wanted to obtain these emeralds and use them for the expansion of his kingdom. However, where the altar of the emeralds was, there were the Chao and the guardian water spirit. Chaos easily fouled every one of Pachacamac's attempt to obtain the emeralds. From what we can make of the testimony of the Knuckles, Tikal, at this point, had not yet made contact with the Chao and Chaos, although Tikal's position against Pachacamac's expansionism is indisputable."
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chriscaffee wrote:
Frieza2000 wrote:
Those remaining from the tribe were given to watching over the Master Emerald, living on the fringe of the altar levitated by the Master Emerald's Power.
This proves that 1) the original shrine was part of Angel Island from the first (I guess you could read 'fringe' as meaning an area not connected to it...), 2) there was only 1 incident where the echidna civilization was destroyed prior to the raising of the island, and 3) several members of the Knuckle Clan survived and lived on Angel Island for some period. A heretofore unexplained incident results in their disappearance, save one.
Unless there is more, technically all it says is that the Altar is levitated.
Huh? I think it's pretty straight forward. It says they were guarding the emerald, and it would make no sense for the alter to get sent into the sky WITHOUT the emerald going up with it, so they had to be living on the same landmass as the altar. And since the shrine island is too small to support life, the rest of Angel Island must've gone up at the same time.
Sonic's like nonsense to me.
Heh! Freudian slip?
We also have Chaos who is called a god.
Yeah, but that's legend. We know that he's a chao that underwent some kind of evolution to become their guardian.
Another note on Icecap, the Action Stage. Balloon festival and a winter village on Angel Island?!
Fang set up a resort for tourists within 2 days to make a fast buck?
I always assumed it was a fox-based civilization on West Side Island with Tails being the last of his kind?
Well remember, 3000 years passed. Plenty of time for new residents to move in and take root. Though nothing has suggested that Tails is the last of his kind, just that he probably has no parents.
There is a "door" a couple hundred feet from the Shrine that leads to the Temple. The Shrine is the same architecture as the Knuckles Clan, so they definitely built a "road" to the Altar, even if it isn't "right outside" their Temple as implied by the game.
Perhaps they built a road up to the point where the barrier was, since it kept them out for so long, but Chaos was harassing them whenever they tried to invade so I doubt anything across the bridge is theirs.


I'd like to analyze the behavior of the Master Emerald/gods for a moment. They did nothing while the Knuckle Clan mascaraed the Chao. They did nothing while Chaos destroyed what was at least a large chunk of the world until Tikal explicitly prayed for it to seal him away (why did she need to be sealed as well? To balance the positive/negative emotions that would be sealed in the emerald? Just as a sacrifice because the emerald didn't have enough power by itself otherwise?). They took no evasive action to avoid the Death Egg when it was falling, though they may have wanted Knuckles and Sonic to meet for some later destiny. They did nothing to prevent Eggman from stealing the ME, and they did nothing to protect it when Eggman shot it with the Egg Carrier and shattered it. What HAVE they done?

Legends say the gods:
1) Sealed Chaos Emeralds in Westside Island.
2) Raised Angel Island ("rebuilt the civilization's land as an island")

Both of these could have been done (and, given that nothing was done to prevent the dire situation that led to them, most likely were done) at the behest of a person's prayer or manipulation of the emerald's energy.

The only things we've personally seen them do of their own initiative are:
1) Possibly move Angel Island's emeralds to the Special Stage.
2) Transform Sonic's Chaos Emeralds into Super Emeralds (but not empower them; Sonic still has to go to the Special Stage and help it do that). It may have been "programed" to do this automatically should all 14 emeralds ever be brought together in its presence.
3) Raise Angel Island at the end of S&K.
4) Relocate the Master Emerald from Hidden Palace to the floating shrine in the Chaotix intro.
5) Show Knuckles that the last pieces of the Master Emerald were on the Egg Carrier.
6) Possibly crash Angel Island again at the end of SA1 to force a confrontation with Chaos.

The Master Emerald seems to be pretty powerless to act on its own MOST of the time, but at critical moments it intervenes. Sometimes. Why did it help Sonic turn Hyper instead of just stopping Eggman from stealing it? Why did it help Sonic stop Eggman from conquering the world when it refused to do anything to stop Chaos from destroying the world? Why move the emerald from a relatively secure location to a tiny floating shrine on the edge of the island, completely out in the open where anyone could quickly grab it and flee before Knuckles had a chance to notice? Perhaps to allow Eggman to shoot it in SA1 and free Chaos and Tikal? The logical outcome of moving to there would be that it would just be that it would get stolen again. The only explanation I can see for all of these is that the emerald/gods are prescient, that they know that intervening at these points is neccesary in order to bring about some yet unknown endgame. If it is prescient, it might be what showed the Knuckle clan living on Angel Island the prophecy of the dragon egg and showed them the image that they subsequently immortalized as the Hidden Palace mural.
What always bothered me was that the Altar is so high above the surface of Angel Island, yet it seems to be sitting in some very shallow waters in the past. What happened to all the "ground" between the Altar and what would become the surface of Angel Island below it? Well, when I mapped it out, I might have figured it out.
So, you think it was right off the coast where Tails's workshop is? I think that works. There IS a sheer drop there above water, which could continue down underwater. Though remember that the edges of Angel Island are thinner than the center. It may not have started that way; some dirt may have fallen off over time (stalactites have clearly formed), and over 3000 years the waves would've smoothed the cliff it left behind considerably, so it doesn't have to be a 90 degree drop.

Another consideration on the shrine's location. If it was raised at the same time as Angel Island, shouldn't the island have been formed AROUND it, with the shrine and the Master Emerald in the dead center? Instead, it was formed around the Pillar. The shrine probably got damaged pretty badly when Chaos transformed right next to it (it was already on fire), and wasn't viable as an altar anymore, so the emeralds were probably moved to Hidden Palace prior to the the island being raised.

As a side note, I don't think that Hidden Palace was build by the Knuckle. The architecture is very different (same with Sandopolis actually). It has sort of a flower motif going instead of echidna faces and serpents. And remember those pink transporters that are also in Sky Sanctuary? Did they invent those? And hey, don't those look like chao faces on the platforms underneath each Super Emerald?

Image

Anyway, obviously the Pillar is really important, but the shrine is at least SEMI-important, right? If they're going to bother raising it with the rest of the island at all, why is it left dangling off the very edge, on a tiny chunk of rock that seems to have been raised separate from the body of the island? Well, I'm going to speculate that it wasn't like that prior to Chaotix. I think that when the Master Emerald relocated itself, it pulled this shrine from somewhere else on the island to 1) have something worthy for it to sit on, and 2) bring the original shrine to the attention of Knuckles and Sonic so they would recognize it in the flashbacks they would be getting in SA1.

Assuming that, Angel Island could have been raised from just about anywhere south of the Knuckle temple, since the only other reference we have is that the Icecap mountain is visible to the northeast (if the top of your maps is north) when you're at the shrine. And again, the transition from the temple to the shrine in the flashbacks could represent a long, winding road. There could even be significant altitude changes. I don't think the game implies too strongly that they're very close. The landscape looks fairly different, especially if you factor in the view from Lost Word. I mean, can you even see Icecap from the temple in the past? Tails and Knuckles can get a pretty good view.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

Wasn't implied somewhere (possibly Sonic X) that Sonic and Tails first met prior to journeying to Westside Island. Then there's the canonically dubious Tails Adventures which takes place in Cocoa Island and implies Tails has lived there quite awhile, if not grew up there. In any case I never got the impression he's native to Westside.

Moreover, if TA is canon, might it've occured concurrently with Sonic CD (assuming CD takes place between 1 & 2, and Tails in the mobile port is non-canon)? Like the existence of the CEs was verified, and the Battle Kukku being opportunistic small fry, took advantage of Sonic and Eggman's Little Planet sojourn to purloin the CEs? Why Cocoa Island, though, is inexplicable. Maybe that's where Never Lake is situated, bit that still wouldn't explain anything...

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by big_smile »

Actually, I think G.Silver may be on to something. Maybe it's referring to the fact that there are multiple game continuities now (Prime and Boom). I actually recall hearing someone say that Classic and Modern are considered separate continuities now; your question might be what they were referring to. If you replace the word planet with universe/continuity then it's...still vile - you can please both fanbases without physically dividing the lore - but at least it's not outright absurd. It follows their current product releases anyway: Mania is Classic, 2017 is Modern (with a guest appearance from Classic...?), and Fire&Ice is Boom.

The worlds thing could probably have it’s own thread! Iizukia first talked about it in a Sonic Colors interview which was long before Sonic Boom.

There was also an Heroes interview where Iizuka said that he had wanted to have a Casino Park like stage in the Adventure games but couldn't because of the story and so had to wait until Sonic Heroes. At the time, I didn’t understand what he meant by that, but viewed through the context of two worlds, it makes more sense, which might (or might not) suggest that they had this idea as early as Sonic Adventure.

Adding more confusion is that Iizuka once hinted that each Sonic game is self contained but connected. This is demonstrated in Sonic Runners. During the story book episode, Sonic doesn’t seem to know any of the story book characters (which suggests the story book games are not in continuity). But in the same scene, Omochao talks about how the story worlds were said to be saved by the blue wind (which suggests the story book games actualy are in continuity). I asked Iizuka about this on Facebook and he just gave some vague comment that implied the Sonic Runners story is separate. Very confusing!

Moreover, if TA is canon, might it've occured concurrently with Sonic CD (assuming CD takes place between 1 & 2, and Tails in the mobile port is non-canon)? Like the existence of the CEs was verified, and the Battle Kukku being opportunistic small fry, took advantage of Sonic and Eggman's Little Planet sojourn to purloin the CEs? Why Cocoa Island, though, is inexplicable. Maybe that's where Never Lake is situated, bit that still wouldn't explain anything...

The Game Gear games aren’t featured in Generations. Iizuka was asked about this in an interview and he said something along the lines of that they didn’t want to include anything that old. I think it’s safe to say that the Game Gear games are set in a different universe.
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Poor Iizukia gets asked all sorts of weird questions. He once told someone that the mysterious hedgehog from the Sonic X preview trailer was supposed to be Super Sonic. The fan couldn’t accept it, and so kept on sending Iizukia questions about it. He actually answered them all!

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

Yeah, I wasn't under the impression that the 8bit games were canon, especially since Triple Trouble contradicts S&K, and TA directly references TT with the Sea Fox and Fang, but aside from that it stands alone just fine and doesn't contradict anything. It wouldn't have made sense for Generations to cull from TA anyways since it is a spinoff (Door into Summer excepting)

But yeah there really seems to have been a seperate continuity for handhelds, eh? Like that's why Blaze is both from the future AND an different dimension?

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by big_smile »

I think it's only the GG games that are in their own continuity. The Nintendo handhelds are in the main continuity.

Regarding Blaze: Iizuka mentioned at the first Sonic Boom convention that Blaze comes from another dimension, whereas Silver and Eggman Nega come from the future. (It was in answer to another question I sent in :))
In Sonic Colours, Tails says that Blaze and Silver look like they might have been friends in another time. In Sonic Runners, it's mentioned that Silver split from Blaze.

So I think Sonic 2006 takes place first with Blaze and Silver in the future. Blaze then ends up in another dimension (which is why we don't see her in 2006 final story).
In the other dimension, she loses her memories (like everyone else in 2006) and battles Eggman Nega in the two Rush games.
Eggman Nega then somehow travels to the future, where he becomes Silver's enemy (giving us the two Rivals games).
Silver and Blaze then don't meet up until Sonic Colours (and they must develop a friendship as we see them together in Sonic Runners).

Going back to the Game Gear games: It's stated that Fang lives in another dimension. I like to pretend that main continuity Fang (From Sonic the Fighters) comes from the GG dimension. But that's just a theory.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

Post by chriscaffee »

First off, Happy birthday US Dreamcast! :D Oh boy, this is a long one. :O
Ah, right, I think that was some NPC dialogue. And one of those texts did say that they were guarded by the power of the emeralds.
About a potential barrier around the Altar in MR Past. Luckily I have a saved game with Tails in the MR Past. Let's see what those low-poly kid'nas have to say...hmmm. They are just talking about war and Pachadamac's expansion that started once Tikal's grandmother died. Perhaps in another portion? Unfortunately I don't have any other saves handy. I'll get there eventually though. Maybe this weekend. But speaking of Tails in the past. He picks up the Rythym Badge/Broach in the past and retains it in the present. There is even an echidna NPC that talks to you about it, specifically referencing Tails' spinning. So the characters aren't just seeing visions, it's actual time travel. If memory serves, Past-Tikal even talks to some of the characters, but she doesn't seem to have the fore-knowledge of Present Tikal. Is it possible that Present Tikal - remembering the strange critters that visited her when she was still alive - specifically sought them out in the present? Sort of a Terminator 1-style ontological paradox? HOLY CRAP. And if Sonic really did TIME TRAVEL to the MR past BEFORE Chaos destroyed the world, and the surviving echidnas were AWARE of him... brings new meaning to those murals in Hidden Palace Zone.
WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT CHRONICLES.
Yeah I don't get this. I kind of drifted away from the community over the years and when I came back, I found out that everyone hates Sonic Chronicles. I don't get it. I thought it was great for what it was: a silly Sonic RPG on a portable.
Huh? I think it's pretty straight forward. It says they were guarding the emerald, and it would make no sense for the alter to get sent into the sky WITHOUT the emerald going up with it, so they had to be living on the same landmass as the altar. And since the shrine island is too small to support life, the rest of Angel Island must've gone up at the same time.
I mean, it could have been levitated 10 feet in the air. I'm just saying that it doesn't specifically say that Angel Island was raised. I'm with you that they are probably talking about Angel Island as a whole, but remember that the Altar is also sort of levitating on it's own, distinct from Angel Island's levitation. Also note that it CONTINUES to levitate even when the Master Emerald is destroyed. (I believe the bridge is for convenience, not support, but I could be wrong.)
Yeah, but that's legend. We know that he's a chao that underwent some kind of evolution to become their guardian.
Well in several mythologies some gods do have definite beginnings (and even endings) so to say that Chaos had origins as a mortal, doesn't mean he didn't achieve god-hood in-universe. I guess it depends on how you want to define deities in HIS WORLD.
Fang set up a resort for tourists within 2 days to make a fast buck?
That or whoever frequents the Carnival Night Zone decided to have a ballooning race? CNZ is right next to Ice Cap Zone, so maybe it was a nod to that?
Well remember, 3000 years passed. Plenty of time for new residents to move in and take root. Though nothing has suggested that Tails is the last of his kind, just that he probably has no parents.
Good point.
he only explanation I can see for all of these is that the emerald/gods are prescient, that they know that intervening at these points is neccesary in order to bring about some yet unknown endgame. If it is prescient, it might be what showed the Knuckle clan living on Angel Island the prophecy of the dragon egg and showed them the image that they subsequently immortalized as the Hidden Palace mural.
Or they saw it themselves, when they saw Tikal talking to Sonic, and then Tikal stopped Chaos from destroying them? Perhaps the "Dragon Egg" they imagined was something that would hatch Chaos (a dragon-ish creature in Perfect form), not knowing that it would actually hatch the Egg Bomber.
Another consideration on the shrine's location. If it was raised at the same time as Angel Island, shouldn't the island have been formed AROUND it, with the shrine and the Master Emerald in the dead center? Instead, it was formed around the Pillar. The shrine probably got damaged pretty badly when Chaos transformed right next to it (it was already on fire), and wasn't viable as an altar anymore, so the emeralds were probably moved to Hidden Palace prior to the the island being raised.
Couple things, though. Hidden Palace Zone really isn't that far from the SA Altar, geographically speaking. I did some sketches based on the Sonic & Knuckles title screen; the in-game sprites of Angel Island; the portion of Angel Island you run into in Sonic Adventure; and the sketch of Angel Island in the Sonic & Knuckles manual, and this is what I came up with:

Sonic & Knuckles (& Knuckles) Title Screen along with Sonic & Knuckles Sprite:
Image

Sonic Adventure:
Image

Sonic & Knuckles Title Screen Perspective, zoomed out to show entire Island
Image

So HPZ is inside the volcano on the "north west" of the island, and from Sonic Adventure, we know the Altar is just to the south of that volcano. It seems like a great distance, but when you consider how small that area is compared to Angel Island as a whole, it really isn't that much distance, though, yes it is strange that the island is not centered around the Master Emerald. An explanation could be that the ME was literally trying to pull the ground away from the entire planet, and it just broke apart at the weakest points, which didn't happen to equal distance from the ME at all sides. It also explains why there is sort of chunk taken out of Angel Island in the south east.
As a side note, I don't think that Hidden Palace was build by the Knuckle. The architecture is very different (same with Sandopolis actually). It has sort of a flower motif going instead of echidna faces and serpents. And remember those pink transporters that are also in Sky Sanctuary? Did they invent those? And hey, don't those look like chao faces on the platforms underneath each Super Emerald?
I imagine it was the remnants of the Knuckles Clan. Or perhaps it was another civilization long-gone, or the ruins of one that they conquered while expanding. We know there are Mayan Echidnas (Knuckles Clan) and also Egyptian Echidnas. Were they all the same tribe? Different tribes that were fighting each other? The Nocturnus?
Assuming that, Angel Island could have been raised from just about anywhere south of the Knuckle temple, since the only other reference we have is that the Icecap mountain is visible to the northeast (if the top of your maps is north) when you're at the shrine.
It's "north" in the sense that that is how it is printed in the strategy guide I scanned. :D I oriented the other maps with the temple for consistency. It would make sense that MR is at a southern coastline because "South Island" and Neutrogic High Zone rises from the "southern seas."
Wasn't implied somewhere (possibly Sonic X) that Sonic and Tails first met prior to journeying to Westside Island.
Could be, but it would be one of many instances where Sonic X diverges from the games continuity.
Then there's the canonically dubious Tails Adventures which takes place in Cocoa Island and implies Tails has lived there quite awhile, if not grew up there. In any case I never got the impression he's native to Westside.
That's entirely possible. Sonic isn't native to South Island, but that's where we first met him. Could be the same with Tails. Something that does bother me is the flashback Tails has Sonic Adventure when he is completely enamored by Sonic running past him in the MR rain forest and he chases after him. They were channeling a Sonic 2 backstory vibe, but showcasing a location that was (not?) West Side Island. Maybe they were just lazy and re-using assets and we weren't meant to think too hard about it.
This is demonstrated in Sonic Runners. During the story book episode, Sonic doesn’t seem to know any of the story book characters (which suggests the story book games are not in continuity).
Yeah but in Sonic Generations, Tails also couldn't remember GHZ, and while Sonic did remember it, he only seemed to vaguely remember it even though he has been there several times. Tails recognizes Chemical Plant, but neither Sonic nor Tails seem to acknowledge the islands they take place on or anything specific to the actual games they are referencing. It's just a vague "oh yeah... I was here... a long time ago...I think..."
Triple Trouble contradicts S&K, and TA directly references TT with the Sea Fox and Fang,
Never had a GG. How does Triple Trouble contradict Sonic & Knuckles?
Going back to the Game Gear games: It's stated that Fang lives in another dimension. I like to pretend that main continuity Fang (From Sonic the Fighters) comes from the GG dimension. But that's just a theory.
A dimension where Sonic characters only have four fingers? :D

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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Smile, it suddenly occurs to me, have you ever asked Izuka what the Mystic Cave Zone rat's name is? :D

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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Someone else could probably explain this better, but here goes. Knuckles considers Sonic a threat in TT despite the events of s&k clearing up the confusion, so it couldn't have happened after. TT ends with Knuckles reconciling with Sonic (or Tails), so it couldn't've happened before S3, and between 3&K is out of the question. Even factoring in the running gag Eggman keeps pulling the same con on Knux, it doesn't really make entire sense. I think the Japanese plot even implies Knuckles and Sonic never met before?

As for Chronicles, I think it's confirmed to be of a continuity all its own. It also ends on an unresolved cliffhanger. Then there's the Ken Penders clusterfuck that Chronicles catalyzed, causing further sequels likely to never happen and Archie to do a soft reboot. The latter in all honesty was the best thing to happen to the Archie continuity, focusing on tighter narratives concerning actual Sega characters.

Though, speaking of Archie and four-fingers, Fang had been redesigned as a pentadactyl. And he's still called Nack. And most aggravating of all, they can't seem to grasp his namesake tooth is firmly situated on his left side according to all official appearances. (These actually have thematic significance I won't go into here). Archie is like a monkey's paw, they give us what we want but with a caveat.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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Smile, it suddenly occurs to me, have you ever asked Izuka what the Mystic Cave Zone rat's name is? :D
I did :) He doesn't know. (Nor does Naka who also used to take fan questions).
Someone else could probably explain this better, but here goes. Knuckles considers Sonic a threat in TT despite the events of s&k clearing up the confusion, so it couldn't have happened after. TT ends with Knuckles reconciling with Sonic (or Tails), so it couldn't've happened before S3, and between 3&K is out of the question. Even factoring in the running gag Eggman keeps pulling the same con on Knux, it doesn't really make entire sense. I think the Japanese plot even implies Knuckles and Sonic never met before?
Yes, in the Japanese story for the game, Knuckles is described as a stranger and it's implied he's meeting Sonic for the first time. So, I think it's set in a separate universe. Note that nearly all the Game Gear takes place on South Island, and there's never been more than 6 Emeralds. In Sonic & Tails, it's said that South Island actually needs all 6 Emeralds to avoid sinking into the sea.
Yeah but in Sonic Generations, Tails also couldn't remember GHZ, and while Sonic did remember it, he only seemed to vaguely remember it even though he has been there several times. Tails recognizes Chemical Plant, but neither Sonic nor Tails seem to acknowledge the islands they take place on or anything specific to the actual games they are referencing. It's just a vague "oh yeah... I was here... a long time ago...I think..."
Good point. But in Runners he does act like he hasn't met the storybook characters before. Merlina actually turned into a villain at the end of her story in Sonic & the Black Knight, but when Sonic meets her in Runners he doesn't remember any of this.
But then again, he act's like that when he meet Zazz. Zazz is offended, and then Sonic reveals that he was only kidding, so maybe it's just a thing he does.

Regarding Tails in Generations: It's a bit odd that he doesn't remember GHZ. However, if you exclude the Game Gear games the only time he has been there is in Advance 3 (when it was at sunset) and possible Sonic the Fighters (although he might not have actually attended the Sonic & Knuckles match). So although it's odd, it's not completely unfeasible.
Another note on Icecap, the Action Stage. Balloon festival and a winter village on Angel Island?!
I think that part of Ice Cap isn't part of Angel Island. One of the NPC says he regularly goes snowboard there, which would be impossible if Angel Island had just landed.
A dimension where Sonic characters only have four fingers? :D
I think I read a theory that Fang's missing finger supposed to be a reference to some Japanese gang where they cut of their fingers. Obviously it's not official, but it does make sense, as I think the other characters have all their fingers.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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Whatever the reason, it was clearly an intentional incongruity that he has four fingers instead of five, as all other characters' TT artwork depicts them with five (excepting Knuckles of course). Even the Battle Kukku have five, and are presumably designed by the same person.

I mean, it seemed it was a coin toss as to whether a character sported soled shoes or not, but aside from granting extra flexibility to Classic Sonic's design (exemplified in Sonic Screensaver). It didn't really seem to matter to the developers until Uekawa took the reins.

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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Dr. BUGMAN wrote:Even the Battle Kukku have five
Derp, just checked; they do not. Should feathers even count? Hmmm....

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Re: Revenge of the nerds

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big_smile wrote:There was also an Heroes interview where Iizuka said that he had wanted to have a Casino Park like stage in the Adventure games but couldn't because of the story and so had to wait until Sonic Heroes. At the time, I didn’t understand what he meant by that, but viewed through the context of two worlds, it makes more sense, which might (or might not) suggest that they had this idea as early as Sonic Adventure.
I'm not following. What is it about the Adventure world that would've prohibited something like Casino Park or Bingo Highway from existing? Casinopolis had giant (virtual?) pinball machines that used Sonic as the ball. That doesn't seen any less fantastic or ridiculous.
chriscaffee wrote:He picks up the Rythym Badge/Broach in the past and retains it in the present. There is even an echidna NPC that talks to you about it, specifically referencing Tails' spinning.
Yeah, but during the Super Sonic story, Tikal sends Sonic into a vision right in front of Tails and Knuckles. When he wakes up, Tails says he "just sort of conked out," not disappeared. Maybe while Tails was dreaming he was also wandering around in the present, sort of sleep walking, and picked up the badge in some random place. I mean, he does wake up somewhere other than were he was when the vision started.

Retro has all of the NPC dialogue ripped. Here's some from Knuckles's story.
We don't care about the Chao. We need to get past that mysterious barrier to get the Emeralds.

Our Chief is Pachacamac. He's awesome! He controls everything around here, except the altar...The Chao live there and have built a little world of their own.

Our tribe has lived with war for a long time. Wars have made us rich.

There is an altar in front of the gate. The 7 Emeralds are there. With those 7 Emeralds...all our dreams will come true.
...well, so much for my idea that there's a lot of distance between the temple and the altar! Ok then, that kind of limits where we can put Angel Island. It can't be literally at the gate of the city or it would look like this:
shrinemap1.png
shrinemap1.png (173.28 KiB) Viewed 16310 times
So it's probably more like your original guess:
shrinemap2.png
shrinemap2.png (171.3 KiB) Viewed 16310 times

I've never played Chronicles, but I remember what I heard of it having a bunch of little continuity issues, as though Bioware had taken all of their research from Wikipedia. Even GreenGibbon didn't consider it canon at the time. And it ended on a cliffhanger that was never picked up, so I just ignore it.
I mean, it could have been levitated 10 feet in the air. I'm just saying that it doesn't specifically say that Angel Island was raised. I'm with you that they are probably talking about Angel Island as a whole, but remember that the Altar is also sort of levitating on it's own, distinct from Angel Island's levitation. Also note that it CONTINUES to levitate even when the Master Emerald is destroyed.
I'm positive it's what they intended to say. If you really want to pull a technically we can say that the shrine was sent up with the 7 Chaos Emeralds (they were the dangerous power that caused the disaster after all), but the echidnas kept the Master Emerald, "guarding" it as they rebuilt their society, then one day "a sect of wise men attempting to take the energy of the 'Stone of Power' for themselves accidentally let the energy run out of control." But it would seem silly for the gods to put the emeralds up there with nothing to guard them, especially given that ring portals are a thing. Aircraft could be too.

I would also allow that the altar that gets levitated could be referring to the one in Hidden Palace, so your original idea that the shrine sunk and was raised with Neutrogic High Zone could still work.

Good point about the shrine island floating even when the main island is down, but it DID have half of the Master Emerald still on it, and it was glowing (I think) so it wasn't dead, so it might've had enough power to prevent the shrine from falling off into the sea.
That or whoever frequents the Carnival Night Zone decided to have a ballooning race? CNZ is right next to Ice Cap Zone, so maybe it was a nod to that?
That would be a nice reference. I guess not ALL of the native animal friends were killed/captured by Eggman/Eggman Robo.
big_smile wrote:I think that part of Ice Cap isn't part of Angel Island. One of the NPC says he regularly goes snowboard there, which would be impossible if Angel Island had just landed.
There's a guy at the Station Square station who says "Once my work's done, I wanna go snowboarding! It's a great feeling coming down that mountain!" Doesn't explicitly say he goes boarding at the Mystic Ruins! And even if he does, it could be a different mountain. Which could invalidate all of these maps because then the snowy mountain in the past is less likely to be Icecap.
Or they saw it themselves, when they saw Tikal talking to Sonic, and then Tikal stopped Chaos from destroying them?
Image
If this came out of their imagination rather than some prophet's mystic foresight then it's a pretty huge coincidence that they got the robot's appearance right.
An explanation could be that the ME was literally trying to pull the ground away from the entire planet, and it just broke apart at the weakest points, which didn't happen to equal distance from the ME at all sides.
I like that idea.

I think I see what you're doing to locate Hidden Palace (we know that Lava Reef 2 is between it and Lava Reef 1, which is presumably in the vicinity of the volcano), but here's a source I don't think you considered. We can see the Death Egg's face from both Lava Reef and Hidden Palace.
Image
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And again, we find ourselves on the right side of the Death Egg when it takes off in Sky Sanctuary, which seems to be directly above Hidden Palace.
Image
Given the angle that we see it come down at and the direction it's "facing" in the zones, we can see that Lava Reef 1 is pretty far to the left of the volcano it crashes into, Lava Reef 2 is almost right beneath it, and Hidden Palace is to the right of it, but not as far right as Lava Reef 1 is left of it. But the beginning of Lava Reef 1 is directly underneath Sandopolis, which seems to contradict the title screen because that shows it on the opposite side of the Death Egg. It also makes it look like there's not much land to the left of it.
angel_island_map.jpg
angel_island_map.jpg (252.89 KiB) Viewed 16310 times
The manual has Marble Garden in the middle, but if you swing the camera counter clockwise I think it'll look more like the island sprite view. Either way, you're right. The shrine sits on the outskirts of Icecap and the volcano, so Hidden Palace isn't that far away.
We know there are Mayan Echidnas (Knuckles Clan) and also Egyptian Echidnas.
I'm not even sure of this. Sandopolis doesn't have echidna faces either. The hieroglyphics are at least a little similar to the Mayan ones, but not a match. This could also have been left behind by a race they conquered, or just random ruins that got caught up when Angel Island was formed. Hidden Palace just looks really alien to me compared to anything else in the game. Sky Sanctuary as well, I guess. Maybe it's because everything else sort of resembles a real-life civilization, whereas it looks very futuristic. Which reminds me...
Image
Where are we standing?!?!

Another addition to my list of god activity: Raising Neutrogic High Zone and restoring it to a lush green paradise. This may have been by accident; the manual says it was a result of the Pillar's energy rather than the gods or the Master Emerald itself. All it accomplished in the immediate sense was to give Eggman a way to access the Pillar and create the Chaos Rings, unless the island is the same thing as Station Square+Mystic Ruin, in which case it was part of the setup for the events designed to put Chaos+Tikal to rest.


Dr. BUGMAN wrote:Wasn't implied somewhere (possibly Sonic X) that Sonic and Tails first met prior to journeying to Westside Island. Then there's the canonically dubious Tails Adventures which takes place in Cocoa Island and implies Tails has lived there quite awhile, if not grew up there. In any case I never got the impression he's native to Westside.
Sonic and Tails definitively met on Westside.
One day, not long after Sonic had been on the island, Sonic noticed something tagging along to his rear. He turned around to see a little fox. When the fox realized he had been seen, he scurried into the shadows under the palm trees. But when Sonic turned and ran off, the fox followed behind him as fast as he could.

After a while, Sonic said "Well, he can do whatever he wants." and left it at that, not taking particular interest in whatever it was the fox was doing.

"Miles Prower" was the fox's name. Miles actually had two tails, which is why the animals on the island all called him "Tails". They teased him a lot because of those two tails. But when he saw Sonic come to the island, he changed.

"I want to be cool, too!" he resolved. After that, he started tagging along behind Sonic for all hours of the day.
Tails Adventure takes place prior to this, so if we take it as canon then Tails must've moved to Westside after that incident.
Floating along the spring-like South Pacific, the tiny island not found on any map, Cocoa Island... the beautiful island resting atop coral reefs, said to be home to sleeping Chaos Emeralds since ancient times.

It is on this island that Tails lives. This story from here, occurs before Tails met Sonic...
I'd explain the emerald legend by saying that Cocoa Island was ALSO conquered by the Knuckle Clan at some point (it's yet another south Pacific island, so why not), and that's why it gets associated with the various legends about the emeralds. It opens with Battlecook having found all but 1 of them, so it could be that he somehow pulled them out of the Special Stage.

Dr. BUGMAN wrote:Knuckles considers Sonic a threat in TT despite the events of s&k clearing up the confusion, so it couldn't have happened after ... Even factoring in the running gag Eggman keeps pulling the same con on Knux, it doesn't really make entire sense.
It makes sense to me for exactly that reason. No explanation is given for why Knuckles is there or why he's trying to stop Sonic, but it doesn't take too much imagination to fill in the blanks.
Meanwhile, just as Eggman had predicted, Sonic and Tails had gotten wind of the situation and were already swinging into action. Just when the two were running around here and there collecting information on the emeralds, a stranger suddenly popped up in front of them, blocking their way.

“Sonic, you dirty rat! You’re not getting what you’re after or my name ain’t Knuckles!
“!?...???”
The word stranger is clearly used for dramatic effect because Knuckles knows Sonic's name. Calling him a "rat" may imply that Knuckles feels Sonic has betrayed the trust they'd established at the end of S&K. This game is, in fact, the only time Knuckles gets tricked between S&K and Sonic Adventure. Since they make it seem like a frequent occurrence in Adventure, I think it needed to happen at least 2 times.
big_smile wrote:In Sonic & Tails, it's said that South Island actually needs all 6 Emeralds to avoid sinking into the sea.
When the two quickly returned to South Island, they found the island of peace was in total chaos! As one of the jewels were taken, the remaining "Chaos Emeralds" were scattered about the island, which was now sinking into the sea!!
I'm going to pull a technically of my own and say that the sinking of the island isn't explicitly tied to the theft of the emeralds. Eggman could be causing it to sink some other way. Though this does say that taking one of the emeralds caused the others to scatter, which is behavior we've never seen before. Other than this line, I don't think there are any significant continuity issues with the GG games. They don't say that there are only 6 emeralds, just that we're only dealing with 6 at the moment. Some could take place before Sonic 2, before Robotnik knew about the 7th emerald, and in the ones that take place afterward it could just be that he only got his hands on 5 or 6 at a time.

Sonic Fighters having 8 is a problem though. Fang's is probably fake. He seems like he'd try to swindle someone by selling them a fake emerald. Or maybe Silver brought one from the alternate future and left it there because reasons.
big_smile wrote:So I think Sonic 2006 takes place first with Blaze and Silver in the future.
Is it possible to fit 06 into the canon at all, even with the ctrl+Z at the end? Elise has possession of the blue Chaos Emerald for her entire childhood. Given that Shadow is there, and knows Rouge and Omega, and Rouge knows Knuckles and Tails, it seems like SA2 and Heroes have happened already, and it's hard to imagine a version of those that don't involve all 7 emeralds. And I don't think Silver's time-loop created a duplicate blue emerald or Robotnik would've just gone after the 7 he already knew about and had collected before. I don't feel like watching the whole 2 hours of scenes again to check, but that's what I remember concluding. Also, I just watched the end and the moon isn't missing a chunk from the eclipse cannon. CLEARLY NOT CANON.

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