OH YES Sonic Mania (Spoiler free thread)

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cjmcray
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by cjmcray »

Personally, I'd like the Special Stages to be fresh and original, not rehashes of the classics.

I would love to see the rest of the classic cast featured as NPCs. (Fang!!! Imagine if Fang were in this. Maybe Sega would be more inclined to use him in Modern games..)

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Neo
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Neo »

cjmcray wrote:fresh and original, not rehashes
cjmcray wrote:Fang!!! Imagine if Fang were in this.

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Jingles
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Jingles »

I hope they don't rehash Sonic 2's Special Stage again. I didn't even like that one in Sonic 2!

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cjmcray
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by cjmcray »

I thought you were ignoring all my posts, Neo?
Jingles wrote:I hope they don't rehash Sonic 2's Special Stage again. I didn't even like that one in Sonic 2!
I agree. Back in '92, I admired those stages for the graphics and exhilarating sense of speed, but those stages were frustrating as hell, and as you said, it's been rehashed quite a bit in recent years. If they do decide to revisit the old special stages, Blue Sphere would be best. Those were difficult but fun, and the music was great. But still, I'd prefer something new.

If Sega could somehow port this to Android devices, that'd be great. I don't own any of the current-gen consoles.

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Dr. BUGMAN
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

I think the thing with sonic 2's Special Stages is there's a lot of room to expand on in ways 1's and 3's can't, at least without compromising accessibility. There was a taste of this in saturn 3d blast's with the rare implementation of speed boosters as a risk/reward mechanic, opposed to the scripted inanity they became in adventure 1 onward.

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Jingles
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Jingles »

My problem with S2's special stages, which can't really be "fixed" without tossing out the core mechanic, is that your forward movement speed is totally static. Sonic 1's specials and Blue Sphere can both be beaten mostly at your own pace - better players will be able to beat the stages quickly and move on, but inexperienced players have a bit of wiggle room if they need it. In Sonic 2, you always have to go at the game's pace, which is completely counter-intuitive to the kind of game Sonic 2 is. And they're so long - a full runthrough of the 7th Special Stage takes 2 minutes, and, like, could you imagine taking 2 full minutes to complete a level of Blue Sphere if you were an expert at it?

There's also very little variety. Sonic 1's special stages' were intricate mazes that you had to navigate by bouncing yourself in the right direction and (in later levels) choosing which path was the right one to take. Blue Sphere had you making sharp turns around fields of instant-lose spheres, jumping all over in the place in & Knuckles, and allowed you as much time as you like in exchange for a constantly increasing movement speed. Sonic 2's special stage is much, much simpler - position yourself horizontally on the track to get rings and don't hit the mines or you'll lose a few - and while I can see why it's been played with so much in future games, I think the premise alone isn't very interesting.

And maaaaybe it's a little bit of personal bias, because I was always terrible at them and pretty good at S1 and S3&K's. But I digress.
Emperor Omochao wrote:Additionally a really good anime sequence like they had for Sonic CD would seal the deal.
Seconding this!!!!!

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Dr. BUGMAN
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

Not to belabor the point, but the speed wasn't fixed in saturn 3d blast's special stages; it was greatly affected by the incline/decline sonic was on. And again, speed boosters offered a larger ring bonus at checkpoints if you were ballsy enough to risk it.

And I really do say this a someone who considers 2's ss the weakest of the classic era. Like could you imagine the halfpipe forking. Or maybe you could race a rival (like Fang on his bike), he'd get in your way like Tails did but intentionally, scooping up rings, and maybe you could knock each other into bombs.

Maybe the stage could end early if you've amassed a crazy number of rings or something.

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Frieza2000
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Frieza2000 »

I think it would be neat if they made each special stage different. We could have some Saturn 3D Blast, some Chaotix, and maybe some Sonic&Tails style platforming mini stages. All with a short boss fight with Fang at the end. Having to learn new mechanics in every stage could be irritating to new players, but given the nostalgia-heavy nature of the game it can be presumed that most of us are already familiar with how these work.

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Crazy Penguin
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Crazy Penguin »

I like Sonic 1's Special Stage the most conceptually, simply because Sonic still controls like he does in main game, just with the gimmick that he's perpetually rolling. The Special Stages in the Game Gear/Master System Sonic 1 were even closer to the main game, since it was all springs and bumpers, no rotation.

Sonic 2's Special Stages were impressive in 1992, but haven't aged well at all. I will echo the sentiment that Sonic 3D Saturn improved upon the formula in every way. Actual 3D graphics certainly helped with the depth perception.

Sonic 3's were kind of dull. Like Sonic 2, the gimmick was being able to move Sonic around in a pseudo-3D space, so it seems very dated by today's standards. Moving around a fixed grid and methodically erasing blue spheres is a decent action/puzzle mini-game concept, but doesn't in any way reflect or complement the traditional freewheeling Sonic gameplay.

Sonic CD did the best job of the "Sonic in 3D space" gimmick, since it was the most literal approach and gave the player the most freedom (being able to both lose and regain seconds on the timer, etc). Like the others though, the pseudo-3D gameplay with 2D sprite based graphics is really rough.

I think Sonic Mania would do best to avoid the 2/3/CD approach to Special Stages. 3D action has been the norm for two decades now, so it no longer functions as a gimmick. And such a thing would be best served by polygonal 3D graphics, which would conflict with Sonic Mania's very identity. It might be best if they tried to find a new twist on the pinball/pachinko concept. Speed aside, rolling into a ball is the one thing that distinguishes the way Sonic moves and controls when compared to every other platformer, so it's natural that any palate cleanser bonus game should focus on that aspect of the gameplay.
Frieza2000 wrote:I think it would be neat if they made each special stage different. We could have some Saturn 3D Blast, some Chaotix, and maybe some Sonic&Tails style platforming mini stages. All with a short boss fight with Fang at the end. Having to learn new mechanics in every stage could be irritating to new players, but given the nostalgia-heavy nature of the game it can be presumed that most of us are already familiar with how these work.


Sonic Chaos had a different gimmick for each of its five Special Stages. It was an ambitious, thinking outside of the box kind of approach, but it really didn't work. I don't think what you're proposing would work either. Not only would the player be thrown for a loop each time they attempted a Special Stage, there would also be absolutely no learning curve and no opportunity for the developers to gradually introduce mechanics then build upon them. It's better to get everything you can out of one concept than to just skim the surfaces of seven different concepts.

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Majestic Joey
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Majestic Joey »

As long as the special stages are nothing like the unplayable special stages in the sonic advance series (especially sonic advance 1) I'll be happy.

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Neo
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Neo »

Weren't the Advance 1 special stages the sky surfing ones? Those were like, the most tolerable in the series.

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Crazy Penguin
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Crazy Penguin »

Poor depth perception was a huge issue in the Advance series Special Stages. The requirement for accessing them in Advance 2 was complete and utter bullshit too.

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Majestic Joey
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Majestic Joey »

I always thought sonic advance 1 had the worst special stages in my opinion. It was so hard to grab rings because of the depth perception problem (it was fixed a bit in advance 3 but still not perfect). I also hated advance 1 and 2 for having to either find a special spring in the level or collecting all these special rings. It totally ruins the game momentum for me. I prefer there being a giant ring at the end of an act or having giant rings throughout the stage. Having it this way makes it feel like I'm not forced to take one certain path.

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Neo
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Neo »

Majestic Joey wrote:I also hated advance 1 and 2 for having to either find a special spring in the level or collecting all these special rings. It totally ruins the game momentum for me. I prefer there being a giant ring at the end of an act or having giant rings throughout the stage. Having it this way makes it feel like I'm not forced to take one certain path.
This is fair. Sonic 2 and 3 worked better because you weren't restricted to a single entry point, so you had the exploration element without it getting too frustrating.

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G.Silver
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by G.Silver »

Would anyone care if there were no special stages at all?

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Dr. BUGMAN
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

I'd be fine with no special stages if there are no chaos emeralds (or equivalent magic macguffins), but the odds of that are zero.

And,no, turning them into easter eggs -- zone-specific or otherwise -- is not an ideal solution.

(This is moot since sonic 3-esque giant rings essential confirm special stages)

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Malchik
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Malchik »

I found Super Sonic to be a stupid game breaker for the few people able to successfully gather all emeralds before completion. He also turned into a final boss main-stay in much of the franchise. I'd actually like to complete the game, then go back and have access to the special stages to possibly acquire Super Sonic as an initiative to replay soon after game completion.

Sonic CD did this very well with it's good future gimmicks. I found myself going back and trying to find both the Metal Sonic projector and robot time machine instead of simply beating the special stages, special stages I found to be the easiest of the classic 16 bit lineup. I also like (maybe the only guy) the ranking system of the modern platforms, as long as they are not ridiculously unachievable like Heroes. Bonus emblems for some kind of pallet swap gimmick or something would be a nice idea, too.

I really enjoy unnecessary achievements and collectibles to go back to and master. Maybe that's why I enjoyed Sonic Adventure DX and Battle so much.

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Dr. BUGMAN
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

Metal sonic projectors had no effect on the future aside from the purely decorative frolicking animals (many unnamed and undocumented on any sonic wiki, oddly enough). If there was one major thing I'd retroactively change in sonic cd is to replace enemy generators and projectors with something else to hunt down once all the time stones were acquired, like maybe those seed pods and ring dispensing statues from wacky workbench, yknow, to keep the incentive of exploration alive.

Or even cooler, have the special stage UFOs show up in the proper levels.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Wombatwarlord777 »

Super Sonic could've been salvaged in the Genesis games if only there was a dependable way not to activate him each time you jumped or performed an Insta-Shield. Since all three buttons on a Genesis controller all do the same thing, why not map activating Super Sonic to one of those buttons? Maybe the A button as it's the one that takes the most conscious effort to press.

Also, Super Sonic is a really fun toy but he doesn't lend himself to much replay value. That's why I've always thought he should have his own exclusive set of time attack missions or something similar. It'd be great for players who already beat the game because Super Sonic's more uncontrollable speeds would emphasize memorizing large tracts of the levels themselves.

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big_smile
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by big_smile »

Each level should have Super Sonic only routes. When you play as regular Sonic, you might come across pits filled with spikes. Super Sonic can walk on spikes and so access new areas. Some of the spike pits might be quite long, so you'd need to have enough rings to make it to the end.

Or the player might be able to take advantage of Super Sonic's enhanced momentum to catapult to new areas.

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Neo
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Neo »

Dr. BUGMAN wrote:And,no, turning them into easter eggs -- zone-specific or otherwise -- is not an ideal solution.
I did enjoy looking them in the main stages in Sonic 1 8-bit though.
big_smile wrote:Each level should have Super Sonic only routes. When you play as regular Sonic, you might come across pits filled with spikes. Super Sonic can walk on spikes and so access new areas. Some of the spike pits might be quite long, so you'd need to have enough rings to make it to the end.
This is the kind of backwards-ass thinking that got us those friggin' Bubbles pits in Sonic 4. Design the mechanics for the levels, not the levels for the mechanics.

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Dr. BUGMAN
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

Neo wrote: I did enjoy looking them in the main stages in Sonic 1 8-bit though.
Fair enough, but didn't sonic 1 8bit have comparatively small and straightforward acts?

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Majestic Joey
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Majestic Joey »

big_smile wrote:Each level should have Super Sonic only routes. When you play as regular Sonic, you might come across pits filled with spikes. Super Sonic can walk on spikes and so access new areas. Some of the spike pits might be quite long, so you'd need to have enough rings to make it to the end.

Or the player might be able to take advantage of Super Sonic's enhanced momentum to catapult to new areas.
I don't know about super sonic paths but I always wanted paths that were sonic and knuckles only. Like maybe make walls that only sonic and knuckles can break through and tails can't. I also always thought it'd be cool if sonic had a wall jump. Maybe could make vertical paths that only knuckles and sonic could reach.

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Dr. BUGMAN
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

hmm. how'd a wall jump work for sonic with a one-button design? I mean, like, obviously Mighty in KC but he hadn't another midair maneuver. automatically sticking/skidding on wall a la mega man x sounds like a massive pain in the ass, too.

when you look at it knuckles glide more likely arose from wanting him to intuitively stick to walls and climb them within a one-button layout than vice versa. it's right up there with Tails being able to actually harm enemies with a rolling attack despite having soft fur, same with Blaze and Cream. When you get down to it, Sonic is pretty much the only character that makes complete intuitive sense with his design. I mean, you look at Amy and you'd think she'd be able to do at least _most_ of what Sonic can do, but nope, hammers and turning invisible(!). Silver? Telekinesis! Shadow? Everything Sonic can do, plus laser light show powers 'cause anime logic.

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Jingles
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Jingles »

Too cool for capitalization, Bugman?

A wall-jump would kind of defeat the purpose of the upper/middle/lower level design, wouldn't it? I mean, why segment the levels like that if the player can just access the top route immediately?
G. Silver wrote:Would anyone care if there were no special stages at all?
I'd care, but I'd especially care in Sonic Mania because of the whole "it's gonna be just like the Mega Drive games!!" angle. The special stages were some of my favourite parts of those games! I always thought ditching them in the later games bar Heroes was silly.

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