OH YES Sonic Mania (Spoiler free thread)

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Dr. BUGMAN
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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

https://video.twimg.com/tweet_video/DBbLKD_UIAAZFS0.mp4

I wonder if the intent was to have his extremities 'orbit' like electrons around a nucleus when his spinning slows down.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Jingles »

It really bugs me when Hesse draws Sonic's head-spikes pointing straight upwards (starting at 0:05 in the above video). It creates such a strong dichotomy between his head and his back. I know the precedent was sort of set in the Sonic CD animated bits, but they were nowhere near as rigid as this guy makes them out to be.

It's a nitpick, sure, but it's striking when compared to the fluidity of Sonic's movement.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Wombatwarlord777 »

Jingles wrote:You're all forgetting the most important set.
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Ah, the Chaos Blingeralds.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Malchik »

I hope there's not a whole lot of animation outside of advertising.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by big_smile »

The theory going around is that there will be animated cut scenes after every level.
And I approve. I really like Hesse's style: He manages to make Sonic simultaneously look clumsy, cute and cool, which seems what Sonic Team were going for in those early manual sketches. I do agree some of the spine angles look a little odd, but overall it's excellent.

I really do believe Mania is going to usher in an all new era of Sonic. At the moment Iizuka think's it just some niche thing, but when the sales figures come back I wouldn't be surprised if he has a complete re-think about the series.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Wombatwarlord777 »

big_smile wrote:The theory going around is that there will be animated cut scenes after every level.
And I approve. I really like Hesse's style: He manages to make Sonic simultaneously look clumsy, cute and cool, which seems what Sonic Team were going for in those early manual sketches. I do agree some of the spine angles look a little odd, but overall it's excellent.
I'd personally like in-game transitions a la Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but when a big part of your game is going back to past stages via time travel or a simulation or whatever, I can see where that method of going from stage to stage wouldn't be the most graceful. If what's rumored is true, I imagine we'll probably have ten-second animations between each stage, plus longer intro, bad ending, and good ending cutscenes.
I really do believe Mania is going to usher in an all new era of Sonic. At the moment Iizuka think's it just some niche thing, but when the sales figures come back I wouldn't be surprised if he has a complete re-think about the series.
This is probably me being paranoid and pessimistic, but if there's one thing I fear, it's that SEGA's going to take a good thing and ruin it with rushed sequels. Dimps at one point made competent and innovative Sonic titles, boost to win notwithstanding. But SEGA just abused their working relationship with them, forcing them to work with tinier and tinier deadlines, until by the time they got to the portable Generations and Lost World their games were a complete joke. Given that they initially had something like eight fucking months to churn out their version of Generations, I'm surprised it turned out as well as it did

So I fear the same thing is going to happen with Sonic Mania 2, Sonic Mania 3D, Sonic Mania Origins Collector's Edition, Super Sonic Mania Adventure, and Sonic's Very Mania Christmas Special Demo. And it's not like SEGA hasn't promised to prioritize quality over quantity, do better for a few years, and then return to rushing out titles due to Christmas or annual fiscal reports or whatever more than once.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Jingles »

Mania is (probably? hopefully) going to be a very good game. It's not going to set the world on fire like a lot of people are making it out to be.

Mania doesn't hold a lot of marquee value in the eyes of non-Sonic fans (maybe even non-retro Sonic fans). We're all going nuts about it because it looks like an incredible next step of the Mega Drive games and has all these neat little callbacks tailor-made for longtime enthusiasts, but we were already sold on a classic-style Sonic game made by a guy who is very good at developing them.

In the eyes of the average gamer, Mania is yet another revival of a established franchise in the vein of Mega Man 9 and doesn't have anything to offer those who weren't already on the bandwagon. The game has a ton of effort put into it to target a very, VERY specific audience, and while I absolutely adore that level of devotion I ultimately have to admit that it comes at the price of widespread appeal. Is that a good or bad thing? We'll see.

Forces is far and away the more important game. To someone who doesn't keep up with the Sonic development scene, the last major Sonic game was a massive flop that sunk a developer and embarrassed everyone involved. If Forces ends up sucking, we're going to be in the exact same rut we've been in for the past half-decade - sitting around with absolutely no idea of where the franchise is going next and nothing to tide us over but some kooooooky marketing and maybe a F2P mobile game.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by big_smile »

I'm more hopeful for the impact Mania will have on Iizuka. I get the impression that he thinks boost is the core of Sonic and while platforming has a place, it's secondary to boosting. I'm hoping Mania will be a wake up call and we might see more classic game play mechanics worked into modern Sonic. Iizuka always seems to be looking for ways to reinvent Sonic but I'm also hoping Mania will show him that Sonic games don't need radical new gimmicks.
Dimps at one point made competent and innovative Sonic titles, boost to win notwithstanding. But SEGA just abused their working relationship with them, forcing them to work with tinier and tinier deadlines, until by the time they got to the portable Generations and Lost World their games were a complete joke. Given that they initially had something like eight fucking months to churn out their version of Generations, I'm surprised it turned out as well as it did
Out of interest, have Dimps (or anyone else) spoken about their deadlines or working relationship with Sega?

I always thought Dimps misunderstood Sonic. They seemed to put too much emphasis on speed and had a bizarre obsession with bottomless pits and cheap hits. The DS games were great, but I think that's because the duals screens forced them to make taller levels which increased the scope for exploration (something that was lacking in their one-screen efforts).

I wish Generations had been a DS title. I think it would have fared better than the 3DS nonsense we got.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Malchik »

big_smile wrote: I really do believe Mania is going to usher in an all new era of Sonic. At the moment Iizuka think's it just some niche thing, but when the sales figures come back I wouldn't be surprised if he has a complete re-think about the series.
I personal don't believe Mania is going to out sell Sonic Forces, it's a game fir us not the casual and core fanbase. People who played Sonic 4 and claimed it was a good call back won't "get it."

Anyway, I'm cynical enough to believe if the game sold like gangbusters, Iizuka may just get jealous that people don't want their edgy green-eyed Sonic they've been pushing for almost two decades and, again, bury classic-styled Sonic. There was a reason Sonic Team didn't try and dip into nostalgia earlier, the purposely wanted to push the Adventure styling over the classic.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Tsuyoshi-kun »

I don't know how much of the blame lies with Dimps, Sonic Team's supervision, or Sega's usual rushing of their games, but I never found myself really getting absorbed into any of Dimps' Sonic games. Not even Sonic Rush, which I actually sold not long after finishing it. Sonic 4 remains one of my least favorite experiences with the Sonic franchise in the 25 years I've been into it.

I'm still a little worried abut how Mania will turn out - the sheer amount of old levels vs. the new is a little disappointing to me so far - but the little touches added to each Zone so far have looked great, and the idea of animated, voiceless cutscenes has me intrigued.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

Malchik wrote: it's a game fir us not the casual and core fanbase. People who played Sonic 4 and claimed it was a good call back won't "get it."
This is why the animations are important. They do more to draw in people who don't want to delve into the nuances than anything else. They're going to see Sonic Jackie Chan-ing it up and that's going to push a lot of sales.

People who defend shit like DreamWorks and Blue Sky generally find Disney-Pixar to be of higher quality even if they can't ascertain why. I believe that's what's going to happen here.

Of course that's no guarantee that Sega won't squander this newfound relevance. The MM9 comparison is apt; there's good reason it saw only one sequel, and that's 'cause to the casual audience raster graphics are nothing more than a novelty.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Frieza2000 »

Malchik wrote:it's a game fir us not the casual and core fanbase. People who played Sonic 4 and claimed it was a good call back won't "get it."
I'm with Dr. Bugman. I don't think it's so much that these people prefer modern Sonic gameplay or aesthetics as it is that they're a bunch of undiscerning paint guzzlers who will play anything with Sonic in it. Even fans who are more interested in playing the 3D games (like myself) can still find enough enjoyment in the classic games to merit buying one, and the stigma among gamers at large is still "3D Sonic = Sonic 06," so a retro one is more likely to catch the eye of a wider audience than a game like Forces, with its darker tone evoking memories of that very era.

As long as the game is good then the elements that made the originals stand the test of time should theoretically still work. The only thing that might hold it back is that it looks retro enough to be a nostalgia cash-in, which could belie the real quality and originality of the title.
Crazy Penguin wrote:Sonic 3D Saturn/PC
Wow, you can get the PC version for free now!

...I mean you can get it for free legally! https://archive.org/details/Sonic3DFlickiesIsland

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by big_smile »

I personal don't believe Mania is going to out sell Sonic Forces, it's a game fir us not the casual and core fanbase. People who played Sonic 4 and claimed it was a good call back won't "get it."
Mania doesn't have to outsell Forces. It just has to do well enough to convince Iizuka that there's scope to do something more with classic elements as opposed to just regarding them as a niche thing.
Anyway, I'm cynical enough to believe if the game sold like gangbusters, Iizuka may just get jealous that people don't want their edgy green-eyed Sonic they've been pushing for almost two decades and, again, bury classic-styled Sonic. There was a reason Sonic Team didn't try and dip into nostalgia earlier, the purposely wanted to push the Adventure styling over the classic.
I don't think Iizuka is jealous.

Instead he seems to have the well-meaning but misguided goal of reinventing Sonic with every game. It's great that he doesn't want Sonic to be stale, but he often ends up alienating people by focus too heavily on gimmicks that no one cares about. I'm hoping Mania will show him that a Sonic game is viable without lots of 'all-new' gimmicks.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

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Wombatwarlord777 wrote:Dimps at one point made competent and innovative Sonic titles, boost to win notwithstanding. But SEGA just abused their working relationship with them, forcing them to work with tinier and tinier deadlines, until by the time they got to the portable Generations and Lost World their games were a complete joke. Given that they initially had something like eight fucking months to churn out their version of Generations, I'm surprised it turned out as well as it did.
Looking at Sonic Advance, it's interesting how well designed and polished Neo Green Hill Zone is in isolation. The problem was that the rest of the game didn't advance (!) the level design, it felt like playing the same Zone over and over again re-skinned. The sequels had a lot of dubious design decisions that can't be explained away by tight deadlines.

Sonic Rush Adventure somehow ended up being the best of the lot - the level design was a big step up from the rest, each Zone was unique and memorable, the mission mode was mostly fun and added considerable replay value. The touch screen sea-faring mini games were blatant first play-through padding, but generally inoffensive. It's the only Dimps Sonic that I found to be an overall satisfying experience and I have no idea how it happened.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Crazy Penguin »

Dr. BUGMAN wrote:People who defend shit like DreamWorks and Blue Sky generally find Disney-Pixar to be of higher quality even if they can't ascertain why.
The Peanuts Movie was on point though!

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by big_smile »

So apparently Sonic Mania stuff has been leaked. Out of respect to the creators, I'd personally prefer not to see people repost it here, but if you really have to, then be sure to use spoiler tags, as I know there's quite a number of people who don't want to be spoiled.

Edit: The leaks are fake.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

Chemical Factory Plant Zone! Act 2 with funkified music (mmm-mmm) Act2 again.

The sticky moving platforms are reminding me of something, though, and not specifically Sonic. Gargoyle's Quest? Hmm....

Also: Death Egg Robo in GHZ

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Jingles »

Sonic's acceleration is through the roof when he goes down those inclines, nearly outrunning the screen. What's all that about!?

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Emperor Omochao »

I'm assuming other folk have noticed that Flying Battery Zone has elements of Death Egg Zone, Stardust Speedway has elements of Marble Garden Zone and Chemical Plant Zone has elements of Quartz Quadrant. ?

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Wombatwarlord777 »

Not to mention Wacky Workbench.

I could have sworn that Aquatic Ruin would've been the Sonic 2 zone in the game. The initial trailer showcased it alongside Flying Battery (I'm pretty sure Sonic Generations pulled a similar stunt with this anniversary video), plus we were sorely lacking for water / ruins levels.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

I don't see any Quartz Quadrant in Chemical Plant. I see Carnival Night's tubes with bits of Metallic Madness's thrown in. And I guess the bouncy chemicals are Wacky Workbench-esque with Mushroom Hill SFX.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Wombatwarlord777 »

Dr. BUGMAN wrote:I don't see any Quartz Quadrant in Chemical Plant.
If I remember correctly, there is a gimmick in Quartz Quadrant that has Sonic spin around through transparent pipes, almost similar in function to the twisting tube gimmick in nu-Chemical Plant.

Image
This thing. Thanks, Zone:0! Maybe that's what Omochao was thinking about?

But yeah, the general structure of the act is similar to Metallic Madness and Wacky Workbench. It's kind of nice to see them make homages to other classic zones with the set pieces they decided to include.

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

There is a bit of a resemblance sure, but it's a single helix that begins with a funnel (which I'm sure the antlion badnik was intended for) at the start. Functionally it's more akin to the tubes from Carnival Night:
Image
Same protuberance, same double helix. Of course it could meant to be evocative of both, but it's clearly more one than the other. :wink:

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Neo »

It's mechanically like CNZ but transparent and uses SCD sound effects like QQ. You fucking nerds.
Wombatwarlord777 wrote:I could have sworn that Aquatic Ruin would've been the Sonic 2 zone in the game. The initial trailer showcased it alongside Flying Battery (I'm pretty sure Sonic Generations pulled a similar stunt with this anniversary video), plus we were sorely lacking for water / ruins levels.
HYDROCITY ZONE CONFIRMED???????????

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Re: OH YES Sonic Mania

Post by Emperor Omochao »

I can see it actually is more similar to Carnival Night Zone's gimmick actually, although I agree some of these zones might be trying to throw in as many references as possible. I really like the four-directional path tubes in Metallic Madness being used for Chemical Plant Zone.

I think the most glaring omission is Ice Cap Zone though they might be saving that for a later reveal. I'm hoping they put in Lava Reef act II in with Chaos's face on the floating platforms. In S3&K you can kind of see it though its just a coincidence/illusion.

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