New Sonic Adventure Album

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Dr. BUGMAN
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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

"The world at stake, and there's only one person to save it" is such a ludicrous, childish scenario that it only really lends itself to stuff like Sonic. The problem is, Sonic Team is completely unable to do it with mirth, tact, coherence, wit, perspective, etc.

Again compare it to Mario. The world (nay, Galaxy!) frequently rests on his shoulders. They work because the don't fall into the pitfalls of self-importance and silly naval-gazing. Dramatic tension does not need these things! Miyamoto, et al., know that world they built only works as an abstraction (excepting maybe the expertly written RPGs). They respect our intelligence, and I don't feel at all awkward that someone may catch me playing Mario. And, gosh darn it, they have often made me literally at the edge of my seat, I'm not ashamed to admit.

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

Post by big_smile »

Again compare it to Mario. The world (nay, Galaxy!) frequently rests on his shoulders. They work because the don't fall into the pitfalls of self-importance and silly naval-gazing. Dramatic tension does not need these things! Miyamoto, et al., know that world they built only works as an abstraction (excepting maybe the expertly written RPGs). They respect our intelligence, and I don't feel at all awkward that someone may catch me playing Mario. And, gosh darn it, they have often made me literally at the edge of my seat, I'm not ashamed to admit.
It's true that Mario games don't create the same feeling of awkwardness that Sonic games have, but that's because most of them don't have a proper story. All the atmosphere comes from the level themes and music. In the Sonic games, the story adds an extra incentive to go through the levels to find out what happens next, but all this is missing in Mario. Instead the incentive comes from the level design, which is a different experience from narrative incentives.

There are Mario games that do have a strong story (such as the RPGs or even some of the main titles such as Sunshine). These are usually brilliantly done (with the exception of Sunshine), but they carry their own awkwardness. Mario never speaks, so he relies on other characters to say his thoughts. As a result, he comes across as mentally challenged and lacking autonomy (just like classic Sonic in Generations). It was especially awkward in Sunshine where he lets a machine plead his innocence.

The story experience is good enough that it's easy to overlook this, but it's hard to feel as emotionally involved with Mario as a character compared to Sonic. The emotional attachment comes from spending time with him performing daring feats as opposed to being invested in his personality. Indeed, the Miyamoto has said that he didn't want Mario to have a personality, as he's supposed to be a cursor for the player. This in contrast to Sonic who starts glaring angrily if the player stops moving.

Stripping down the story to Mario levels wouldn't work for Sonic. I think like you said, the problem with Sonic stories is that Sonic Team don't have the talent to pull it off, but I'd rather have the complicated and badly written stories of past games then a flimsy light one of current titles, simply because the former allows more of Sonic's personality to come through. He has more events to react to, instead of just killing time and cracking jokes.

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

Post by cjmcray »

Rob-Bert wrote:They never said he "enslaved" them or made them "mindless zombies". They simply sit inside the robots and power them. This is made especially obvious in Sonic Adventure 1 when Gamma blows himself up to release the little bird inside of him. Once again, you sound like you're mixing the games up with SatAM.
Gamma never blew himself up. He was injured while battling E-101 and exploded as a result. I believe the animals are mentally "zomibified" when they become Eggman's machines, because when E-102 looked at Amy's bird, it reminded him of who he used to be. It jarred something from his memory. I believe the consciousness of the animal and the robot are one. And in the process of becoming a robot, the animal is sorta brainwashed into doing Eggman's bidding. That's always the way I interpreted it, as far back as 1991, before SatAM even existed. (Again, I hate that show)
Rob-Bert wrote:I legitimately really like AoStH and I was really happy that Sonic Unleashed onward began taking after it so much. I only wish Orbot and Cubot really were Scratch and Grounder, though.
This is one thing we can agree on. I liked AoStH the best out of all the Sonic cartoons. I'm of the opinion that since the game's are the source material, they should have some level of seriousness like the Adventure series, but since the cartoon is just a spinoff, I don't mind it being off-the-wall crazy.

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

Post by Rob-Bert »

big_smile wrote:It's true that Mario games don't create the same feeling of awkwardness that Sonic games have, but that's because most of them don't have a proper story. All the atmosphere comes from the level themes and music. In the Sonic games, the story adds an extra incentive to go through the levels to find out what happens next, but all this is missing in Mario. Instead the incentive comes from the level design, which is a different experience from narrative incentives.
I'm of the opinion that a silly hop-n-bop platformer doesn't need and never will need a "narrative incentive". That's like asking for a Game of Thrones-level series of plot twists from a Spongebob episode.
As a result, he comes across as mentally challenged and lacking autonomy (just like classic Sonic in Generations). It was especially awkward in Sunshine where he lets a machine plead his innocence.
Or he comes across as literally being the player's avatar, in which case he'd never speak his thoughts because his thoughts are your thoughts. That's the whole point of having a silent protagonist. Don't you think it's a just a teensy bit incongruous when you have full control over a character's actions and then find out he has his own thoughts and feelings independent of yours? That completely wrecks the immersion and interactivity, which is what sets video games apart from other media in the first place.
it's hard to feel as emotionally involved with Mario as a character compared to Sonic.
Here we have another statement that sounds utterly ridiculous in my head. Why would anybody need to feel "emotionally involved" with Mario or Sonic? The whole concept of being able to control a character in a video game is that you essentially become them. If you want to see what a character thinks and feels and how they progress as a person, then it'd make much more sense to read a book or watch a movie or something that involves the audience as a third-person observer rather than a first-person controller.
Stripping down the story to Mario levels wouldn't work for Sonic.
Considering that's pretty much exactly what Sonic was when it started out....yes it would.
cjmcray wrote:That's always the way I interpreted it, as far back as 1991, before SatAM even existed.
Well, interpretation doesn't equal fact. I certainly didn't think of it that way. I just thought Gamma saw the bird and wanted to release the one he had trapped in his chassis.

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

Post by Neo »

Rob-Bert wrote:Well, interpretation doesn't equal fact. I certainly didn't think of it that way. I just thought Gamma saw the bird and wanted to release the one he had trapped in his chassis.
Gamma was the blue bird's mom. There would be no reason for Gamma to think or know that the daddy bird was in one of the other E-Series robots other than being aware of itself being inside an E-Series robot.

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

Post by big_smile »

Or he comes across as literally being the player's avatar, in which case he'd never speak his thoughts because his thoughts are your thoughts. That's the whole point of having a silent protagonist. Don't you think it's a just a teensy bit incongruous when you have full control over a character's actions and then find out he has his own thoughts and feelings independent of yours? That completely wrecks the immersion and interactivity, which is what sets video games apart from other media in the first place.

Here we have another statement that sounds utterly ridiculous in my head. Why would anybody need to feel "emotionally involved" with Mario or Sonic? The whole concept of being able to control a character in a video game is that you essentially become them. If you want to see what a character thinks and feels and how they progress as a person, then it'd make much more sense to read a book or watch a movie or something that involves the audience as a third-person observer rather than a first-person controller.
But games such as Mario and Sonic do involve third person observation. You can plainly see that you are not the characters (I mean, I'd never wear red dungarees). You don't have full control over the characters. You can't, for example, decide to enter into peace talks with Eggman/Bowser, because that's not something Sonic/Mario would do. It's a gameplay constraint (because peace talks wouldn't make for a fun game), but it's also a narrative one (because it'd spoil the story).

As it's clear as you are not the characters, I'd like them to be something more than just a cursor. Yes, I could just watch a film, but then I'd miss out on the gameplay aspect. There's no reason why a game can't offer both story and gameplay and there's no reason why one has to come at the expense of the other. Although, like I said earlier, with many games, you have to give them leeway, as they don't have the budget/talent to deliver both.
Considering that's pretty much exactly what Sonic was when it started out....yes it would.
The earlier Sonic games had more developed back stories in the manuals and as the Mega Drive games (and technology) progressed, the story elements increased. By the time S&K rolls around we not only have cut scenes, but continuation of story elements (for example, Sonic 3 picks up from Sonic 2 and then S&K itself leaves a lot of unfinished aspects that were later addressed in Sonic Adventure). That's very different from the Mario games, which tended to be self contained (granted, they have enemies returning and cut scenes, but they weren't trying to continue a story). Like I said earlier, Nintendo wanted Mario to be a cursor. Sonic, however, was supposed to have a personality.

The GBA games went back to simple framing stories and felt very regressive. They didn't let Sonic express any autonomy as he felt more like a cursor.

Ultimately though, people play games for different reasons. While gameplay is core for me, I still enjoy the enhancement a a story brings. However, for lots of players, the story just creates annoyance, which is fair enough.

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

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Rob-Bert wrote:A series of electronic toys staring a rubber hose cartoon hedgehog in big floppy red shoes and a punk hairdo who spouts slang quips, collects floating golden rings, runs around on landscapes that look like modern art pieces, and fights against a big fat walrus-faced scientist in a red suit and his army of googly-eyed neon-colored animal-shaped robots has no business being that level of animu grimdark.
What's wrong with a serious situation in an absurd world? You're already suspending your disbelief to accept Roger Dean-esque talking animal land at all. Why can't its inhabitants be like us and have dark feelings and face grim conflict? It obviously turns you off, but I wouldn't dismiss a work of fiction from the outset like that just because of its premise.
big_smile wrote:But games such as Mario and Sonic do involve third person observation. You can plainly see that you are not the characters (I mean, I'd never wear red dungarees).
It's especially hard to see Mario as an avatar because he's constantly talking. In fact, just this past weekend I downloaded all of his voice clips for use in a project. He and Luigi combined have about 40 megs of vocals. It's mostly cheery 'let's-a go' and stereotypical Italian phrases, but it definitely paints the picture of a happy-go-lucky and hyperactive man. He's more like a companion than an avatar; you and he go through the game together.
Rob-Bert wrote: Don't you think it's a just a teensy bit incongruous when you have full control over a character's actions and then find out he has his own thoughts and feelings independent of yours? That completely wrecks the immersion and interactivity, which is what sets video games apart from other media in the first place.
I'm all about immersion, and if you're comfortable entertaining even the least bit of role play then this shouldn't be an obstacle to it. Sometimes I enjoy pretending that I'm Sonic or Samus or whoever while I'm playing and thinking about what they would be thinking about in this situation in light of their personality and what I know about their history. Imagination fills in the blanks, so it becomes a creative exercise as well.

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

Frieza2000 wrote: What's wrong with a serious situation in an absurd world? You're already suspending your disbelief to accept Roger Dean-esque talking animal land at all. Why can't its inhabitants be like us and have dark feelings and face grim conflict? It obviously turns you off, but I wouldn't dismiss a work of fiction from the outset like that just because of its premise.
'Cause if a work turns serious and doesn't say it in a coherent and meaningful way it comes off as hella fucking stupid?

Take Tails for example. Being bullied for something you have no control over is something that even the smallest child (i.e., Sonic's target audience) can understand. It's also something you never really forget if it happened to you. It transcends race, nationality or whatever. But it gets better! Tails turned his deformity into an invaluable asset to his hero. He was born in a crossfire hurricane, he howled at his ma in the pouring rain, but it's all right now, in fact it's a gas, gas, gas.

Then you have Shadow. No-one is an ultimate life-form. No-one is going to live forever, or has laser light show powers, or a space station to crash into Earth if s/he is having a hissy (or the capacity to undo such an awful decision once it's executed). And talk about a lack of autonomy: "oops didn't catch that last part of what you said, Maria lol." He doesn't face any human consequences, so he's different as to be completely fucking alien. He's awful in the same way that post-Anne Rice vampires are awful.
big_smile wrote:Mario never speaks, so he relies on other characters to say his thoughts. As a result, he comes across as mentally challenged and lacking autonomy (just like classic Sonic in Generations). It was especially awkward in Sunshine where he lets a machine plead his innocence.

The story experience is good enough that it's easy to overlook this, but it's hard to feel as emotionally involved with Mario as a character compared to Sonic. The emotional attachment comes from spending time with him performing daring feats as opposed to being invested in his personality. Indeed, the Miyamoto has said that he didn't want Mario to have a personality, as he's supposed to be a cursor for the player. This in contrast to Sonic who starts glaring angrily if the player stops moving.
But Mario is the ideal. The only time he's ever lost is the one time he was a outright villain. He can thus only exist as an abstraction. Since Paper Mario openly acknowledges these things, he is the moral ideal his allies try to live up to. To paraphrase: "Mario, you've taught me to never give up!" And it works. (now to make some WWM(ario)D bracelets to sell on etsy.)

Also for fun, next time you play Super Mario World, pay close attention to how Mario induces Yoshi to shoot out his tongue. Also note he no longer does this.

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

Post by Rob-Bert »

Mario also got kidnapped in Super Princess Peach. And Mario is Missing! if you want to include that. He's not totally infallible.

Also, what's wrong with pointing at things for Yoshi to eat?

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

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But Mario is the ideal. The only time he's ever lost is the one time he was a outright villain. He can thus only exist as an abstraction. Since Paper Mario openly acknowledges these things, he is the moral ideal his allies try to live up to. To paraphrase: "Mario, you've taught me to never give up!" And it works. (now to make some WWM(ario)D bracelets to sell on etsy.)
I'll certainly admit that Sonic stories are poorly written. But really, Mario stories aren't that much better. The only reason his allies are inspired by him is because it says so in the script. There's nothing plausibly inspiring about Mario as he has no real personality. He's might be happy, cheerful and determined but he's also just a cursor.
The fact that he can perform impossible feats of bravery, but needs a mushroom to convey his thoughts is just as awkward as Shadow's antics. Toad is clearly a high level psychic, so why doesn't he just stand next Bowser and mind-read his plans. Worse still, when playing as Mario, he'll happily voice his excitement: "Lets-a go" and "Wee Hee!". So why does he become mute during the cut-scenes. Is it to be deliberately awkward? Does have some sort of king complex, in that he can't lower himself to the peasant behaviour of talking?

I've got no problem with Mario being mute, but Nintendo want it both ways. They want Mario to be mute, because he's the player. But then they also want him to take part in dialogue based RPGs and then cheat by using Toad as a mouthpiece thus undoing all the charm that mute Mario has.

And yes, I am over analysing it. If you just give mute Mario some leeway, then the story is quite enjoyable. But that's the same sort of leeway a Sonic game requires.

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

Post by Rob-Bert »

Which Mario RPGs did you play? Super Mario RPG parodies the fuck out of the "hero doesn't talk" trope by having Mario physically act out everything he wants to say. In Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, whenever the game would have you select a response to another character's question, the choices are always very sarcastic, especially if the question ultimately serves no purpose. Normal Mario games (e.g. the platformers) rarely, if ever even have dialog, so the whole "he needs a mouthpiece" criticism barely applies there.

And what about being happy, cheerful and determined isn't "real"? Over the past decade there's been this obnoxious unwritten rule in any and all works of fiction that says that if a character is a legitimately happy, nice or otherwise upstanding individual he suddenly has "no" personality or isn't "relatable". Not saying this applies to Mario, but a character can be an overall good person and still be compelling. It's totally possible.

Finally, Mario's stories may be "poorly written", but unlike Sonic, Mario's games don't actively try to be story-driven. When you want to make your story a heavy focus of your game, it's going to be a hell of a lot more embarrassing when that story is utter garbage, awful dialog and all. The aforementioned RPGs are really the only Mario games that do put any emphasis on the story, and a good chunk of that is parodying standard RPG conventions. It also helps that those stories are never really about Mario. He's you: he's just along for the ride. The real focus are the characters around Mario. If these games did give Mario snappy dialog and had the story affect him in some significant way, I'm willing to bet they'd have horribly screwed up by now and turned the Mario franchise into a joke on the same level as Sonic.

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

Post by big_smile »

It's not the fact that he's happy and cheerful that makes Mario unreal, it's the non-talking part, as it just reiterates that he is not an individual character but a cursor for the player. Like you said, the RPG games are less about Mario but more about the characters around him, which only further serves to make him feel like a cursor.
I agree that the RPG games do a good job of parodying the non-talking aspect, but that doesn't make it any less awkward than the awkward moments of the Sonic games.

I also agree the non-talking criticism doesn't apply to the normal Mario games. But those games rarely have a story. It's just Princess Peach getting kidnapped at the start and the whole story effectively goes on pause until the end.
At least with the Sonic stories, new stuff happens before the conclusion. Take Sonic 2006. It's not just about Sonic rescuing the princess. There's several sub stories going on in between. It's not very well written, but for me at least, it still adds to the experience.

That's kind of my whole point: With the Sonic games, the stories are badly written but they do generally add an extra level of enjoyment, provided the player can overlook the awkwardness of it.
The Mario games don't suffer from the same awkwardness (a part from the whole non-talking issue), but at the same time, they don't offer the enjoyment that the stories bring to the Sonic games.
The better approach depends on the player's preference. I'd rather have an awkward story then miss out on the story experience (especially as you can skip the cutscenes), but clearly you'd prefer it the other way around.

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

Look, we're discussing a medium very still in its infancy. I'm not saying Paper Mario is the best way to go about story in a character-driven. I'd even concede that the parrot dialogue and sidekick proxies may be a medium-retarding crutch in the same sense--but not severity--as cutscenes.

The Chaos Emeralds may a good case in point against fixed-narrative story. The CEs are a fundamentally video gamey concept. They may have altered the ending, but this is after the player's input is irrelevant. They are a commentary on your performance, your score. This playthrough is ended regardless, please try better next time. Then came S&K where the final level--i.e., before the player's control is irrelevant--was locked behind gate demanding a complete set of a non-guaranteed item. And if a proper ending now demands Super Sonic, and Super Sonic demands CEs, then players who payed for this game are going to feel entitled to their CEs! The games are now slaves to their iconography if not continuity.

Adventure demanded they be meted out as the plot demanded. There is no pleasure in obtaining them because there is no risk of finishing the game without them. Their continued presence was justified as almost dogmatic tradition.

The underlying mechanics have been perverted for the sake of plot.
Rob-Bert wrote:Also, what's wrong with pointing at things for Yoshi to eat?
I coulda sworn he was punching poor ol' Yoshi in the noggin (there's even a sound effect!). Limitations leave a lot interpretations, I guess

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

Post by big_smile »

I think it's less about the medium being in its infancy and more about talent and budget. In Sonic Adventure, the story was written by Shiro Maekawa who didn't seem to have any narrative credentials prior to joining Sonic Team. He seems to have just fallen into the role.

The Chaos Emerald point you raise is an excellent one. However, they could made the story alter if the player fails to collect the Chaos Emeralds. Instead of Chaos gradually getting stronger, you'd see Eggman's plans slowly unravelling with him perhaps introducing some new schemes to compensate. That way, when you did get the Emeralds and see the true story unfold, it would have made their acquisition more satisfying (provided you were invested in the story).

Doing something like this wouldn't have been too costly, as in SA, they reused all the animations, it's was only the voice overs that changed. The problem is if you don't have a decent story writing team, then multiple story lines is only going to end up in an even bigger mess (SA could barely cope with the 6 story lines it had).

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

I wasn't trying to shift the blame from the writer to relative youth of the medium, nor necessarily the limitations of existing technology. I just couldn't word HOW a character-centric game can truly integrate an experience tantamount to a conventional story (if such thing is desirable) without ever breaking the players control, because, even if the technology DOES exist to facilitate this, it's ultimately an act of game direction. Does there exist a video game equivalent of Akira Kurosawa, and if not, will there ever? How would s/he reconcile--among many other things, potentially new ones--the fact that you can't see Sonic's [insert character here]'s expressive face from behind his back?

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

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Dr. BUGMAN wrote:
Frieza2000 wrote: What's wrong with a serious situation in an absurd world? You're already suspending your disbelief to accept Roger Dean-esque talking animal land at all. Why can't its inhabitants be like us and have dark feelings and face grim conflict? It obviously turns you off, but I wouldn't dismiss a work of fiction from the outset like that just because of its premise.
'Cause if a work turns serious and doesn't say it in a coherent and meaningful way it comes off as hella fucking stupid?
Yes, coherent and meaningful, but I don't see anything fundamentally impossible about telling a respectable story in an absurd setting so it bugs me when people offer something like "it's a game about a blue hedgehog who runs fast" as a de facto reason it can't take itself seriously. Even when starting with a franchise that's well established as being light-hearted it can be done. I was as vocal as everyone else about how retarded a concept ShTH was but I still played the game because, much as I hated to admit it, there was no reason it couldn't be a good game or even a good story. It would still have been a travesty to the spirit of the series and an act of metaphorical statutory rape, but there's some bizarro universe out there where it turned out to have a profound and compelling story, baffling inclusion of firearms and all. I'm sure there are examples where it's been done; right now what comes to mind is Scooby-Doo! Mystery Incorporated. It may sound ridiculous to take a show about a talking dog and a group of stoned teenagers thwarting criminals in Halloween costumes and to add dark themes, permanent character death, and love triangles, but from what I hear it turned out pretty good.
big_smile wrote:I agree that the RPG games do a good job of parodying the non-talking aspect, but that doesn't make it any less awkward than the awkward moments of the Sonic games.
Really? I went through Paper Mario again just a few months ago and I thought it was handled brilliantly. I haven't played any of the recent RPGs - using a Toad as Mario's ventriloquist does sound weak - but in the first one whoever you spoke to would usually just go into a sort of monologue directed at you like in early JRPGs. There was almost never true dialogue, and whenever Mario was required to make a response and the player wasn't given options about what kind of response to give, it was written so that you got the jist of what Mario said while allowing you to imagine exactly how he would've said it, making him much more of a cursor than usual (you could even refuse to spare Lakilester's life, though it wouldn't get you very far). The Superstar Saga games employ the latter trick more often than Paper Mario, except it fills the silence with Italian-sounding gibberish. I didn't think either of these were awkward. My tolerance is pretty high when I'm trying to enjoy myself though.

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

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Dr. BUGMAN wrote: "oops didn't catch that last part of what you said, Maria lol."
I am compelled to point out that situation was implied (or accepted) to have been caused by Gerald tampering with Shadow's memories, hence Amy's moving speech overriding Gerald's plan, and Shadow remembering who he truly was.
........
Fudgeabuddit; I am missing something here. I mean, Take Superman, no one is a superman, but writers build stories to make people empathize or root for him. Is it just that you feel the quality of the story in SA2 (and subsequent games) is so inferior that it annoys you to no end? I can be slow to grasp things here, but art being super subjective and all, kinda like how some people like ketchup sandwiches, and I like tortillas with miracle whip. In the end it just ends up being " I like this, but not this". A matter of taste, and that's what I am not quite discerning?

Yeah new Sonic Adventure Album! woo hoo! Sonic music; GUITAR!

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

Post by Radrappy »

Wooduck51 wrote:
Dr. BUGMAN wrote: "oops didn't catch that last part of what you said, Maria lol."
I am compelled to point out that situation was implied (or accepted) to have been caused by Gerald tampering with Shadow's memories, hence Amy's moving speech overriding Gerald's plan, and Shadow remembering who he truly was.
........
Fudgeabuddit; I am missing something here. I mean, Take Superman, no one is a superman, but writers build stories to make people empathize or root for him. Is it just that you feel the quality of the story in SA2 (and subsequent games) is so inferior that it annoys you to no end? I can be slow to grasp things here, but art being super subjective and all, kinda like how some people like ketchup sandwiches, and I like tortillas with miracle whip. In the end it just ends up being " I like this, but not this". A matter of taste, and that's what I am not quite discerning?

Yeah new Sonic Adventure Album! woo hoo! Sonic music; GUITAR!
Taste is definitely what's going to determine whether or not you like a darker slant to your Sonic games or not. It might be the single biggest divisive issue the fans and the franchise itself constantly wrestles with. However I do agree with the sentiment about Tails vs. Shadow. Tails is such an instantly relatable and moving character, that a few sentences in an instruction manual and some cute sprite animations have you rooting for the little character from day one. Shadow is the laughable other end of the spectrum : tons of dialogue, exposition, and backstory involved with the character but not a damn thing to say.

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

Post by Rob-Bert »

It's the old D&D rule: The importance of your character's backstory is inversely proportional to how much of it there is.

And the fact that nobody can settle on how "dark" Sonic should be is a big part of why I now say that the Sonic franchise was screwed from the start, just by virtue of being divided into so many different "branches" right at the very beginning. Other long-standing franchises, be they games, comics, cartoons, whatever else all at least have had some sort of general consensus among their respective fans on what the overall tone of said franchise should be at one point or another, but I don't think Sonic ever had this.

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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

Post by Neo »

Rob-Bert wrote:Other long-standing franchises, be they games, comics, cartoons, whatever else all at least have had some sort of general consensus among their respective fans on what the overall tone of said franchise should be at one point or another, but I don't think Sonic ever had this.
Dragon Ball didn't either, and it was a raging success. Then again, it also has one of the most divisive fanbases, so there you go.

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Majestic Joey
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Re: New Sonic Adventure Album

Post by Majestic Joey »

So on a whim I bought the sonic adventure soundtrack and the new pride and passion albums.

Sonic Adventure level music holds up. Tails's and Knuckles's themes are much better without the corny lyrics. Amy's theme is totally different without lyrics. Shadow's SA2 theme both with and without lyrics is fucking awesome.

Overall I spent a ton of money on these iTunes downloads but it was my birthday recently so it's ok (got to justify the purchase somehow).

Great music overall.

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