We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

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Dr. BUGMAN
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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

G.Silver wrote: That said the heels for Smash Bros are so ridiculous that "sex kitten" is pretty much the last association I would have made.
I dunno, whenever I see her I envision Sakamoto hunched over behind the character designer. "yes.. yes.. make her ass bigger... tighter... higher... yes... yes." He palpitates, digging his fingers into the artist's shoulders.

My preffered official Samus is this one (with a few provisos. Chiefly: jorts):

Image

She poses traits that I'd expect from a person -- male or female -- to posses leading the kind of life Samus does. Tough, composed, corded with muscle, and blue collar-ish. Why can't she be this?

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Dr. BUGMAN
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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

Dr. BUGMAN wrote:
She posesses traits that I'd expect from a person -- male or female -- to possess leading the kind of life Samus does. Tough, composed, corded with muscle, and blue collar-ish. Why can't she be this?
Thanks, spellcheck, for letting me down.

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Esrever
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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Esrever »

There's no getting around it. The inclusion of Zero Suit Samus in Smash Bros is stupid. It's like making a playable fighter out of "Link, from that one part of the game where he gets his sword and shield stolen and has to do a stealth mission".

Zero Suit Samus is just Samus with all her shit missing. There's no meat for a moveset. So they forcibly graft one onto her out by giving her vaguely cyber-themed versions of tired sexy lady tropes like whips and high heels. It's stupid and it's boring and it has nothing to do with Metroid. It's the complete antithesis of what Smash Bros. is supposed to be about.

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Neo
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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Neo »

You do realize that the second half of Metroid Zero Mission is played entirely as Zero Suit Samus, right? And there's been two redundant versions of Link since Melee, so I don't see your point.

I mean, I could get behind streamlining the character lineup as much as the next guy, but there are far more offensive examples than ZSS, which doesn't actually play like normal Samus at all.

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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Jingles »

Esrever wrote:There's no getting around it. The inclusion of Zero Suit Samus in Smash Bros is stupid. It's like making a playable fighter out of "Link, from that one part of the game where he gets his sword and shield stolen and has to do a stealth mission".
Toon Link, Falco, Wolf, Ganondorf, Lucas, Ike, and Luigi would like a word.
Esrever wrote: So they forcibly graft one onto her out by giving her vaguely cyber-themed versions of tired sexy lady tropes like whips and high heels.
A fighting game has a sexualized female character? OH NOOO
Esrever wrote: It's stupid and it's boring and it has nothing to do with Metroid. It's the complete antithesis of what Smash Bros. is supposed to be about.
Uh, the main character in an alternate costume that's she worn in a recent game has nothing to do with Metroid? And what is Smash Bros exactly supposed to be about? I could have sworn it was about celebrating the history of Nintendo & having, not progressing the field of feminism in video games.

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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by G.Silver »

Esrever wrote: It's stupid and it's boring and it has nothing to do with Metroid.
Nothing to do with Metroid?! It's as if you've completely forgotten about all your favorite scenes in Metroid: Other M!
Neo wrote:You do realize that the second half of Metroid Zero Mission is played entirely as Zero Suit Samus, right?
There's no way that bit at the end is the "second half" of Zero Mission. You don't even play as Zero Suit Samus for all of it, either!

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Neo
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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Neo »

G.Silver wrote:There's no way that bit at the end is the "second half" of Zero Mission. You don't even play as Zero Suit Samus for all of it, either!
Okay, caught me with my pants down, I haven't actually played the game. But regardless of how we measure our halves, the point I was trying to make is "everything that happens after Samus escapes Zebes, which given that Zero Mission is a remake of the original Metroid and the original Metroid ended at the escape from Zebes kinda makes it a big deal".

I dunno, ZSS still makes more sense to me as a separate character than Slightly Deformed Link or Slightly Blonder Ness or Slightly Birdier Fox. But who knows, they might make those more unique or do away with some of them altogether.

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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Crowbar »

I feel like I actually minded the clones less when they were LESS different to the characters they were clones of. I mean, I liked Dr Mario. But Ganondorf getting a slightly tweaked moveset that is still obviously derived from Captain Falcon while still, I'm pretty sure, not actually being derived from anything the character has done in any games (if I'm wrong please correct me). And having Fox, Falco, AND Wolf annoys me, and no amount of "But Wolf plays differently!" is changing that.

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Esrever
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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Esrever »

I think you guys are maybe missing my point.

Clone characters are a quick way of expanding the roster while working within time and development limitations. They have problems, sure. But Zero Suit Samus isn't a clone character.

Zero Suit Samus is a fully-realized, built-from-the-ground-up, completely original fighter, like Link or Mario. Only... there is literally nothing about Zero Suit Samus as a character that they can draw from for her moveset. So in order to make her work in Smash Bros.... they just have to make a bunch of shit up. For me, that is the antithesis of what makes Smash Bros. cool.

Every other full character in Smash Bros -- male and female, sexy and goofy -- gets a set of cool moves and abilities that draws from their history and pays tribute to their source material. But Zero Suit Samus just gets a made-up whip and high heels, because if the character's moves were actually based on Zero Suit Samus' game appearances, all she'd be able to do is hide, pose, fire an incredibly weak pistol, and possibly read you her angsty diary entries. There's nothing to base her moves on. So instead, they just base them on generic hot woman fighter cliches. Which is lame!

I like the Zero Suit costume. I don't like how it keeps hugging her increasingly large boobs and butt tighter and tighter with each successive appearance, but the suit itself has a great, iconic design. What it does NOT have is an interesting, unique set of abilities to draw from. It is literally a powerless undersuit that Samus never chooses to wear when fighting anyone. So it's a dumb choice for a Smash Bros. character, flat out. If they really wanted a sexy character, or another Metroid character, there are plenty of other options that would make more sense. Ridley! Bayonetta! Someone from Soul Calibur! Hell, even Dark Samus.

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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Rob-Bert »

I don't recall Captain Falcon going around Falcon Punching people like a madman before Smash Bros.

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Jingles
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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Jingles »

Except that they did the same thing with Fox and Captain Falcon in the original Smash Bros. Or maybe I missed the part in F-Zero where the Captain kicks a car off the road and that fateful mission in Star Fox where Fox destroys a ship by blasting through it with his fireball powers.

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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Neo »

Not to mention, half of Zero Suit Samus's moves are based around the aforementioned incredibly weak pistol, which has been expanded on but still has the basic function of stunning other fighters. You HAVE played the game, right?

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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Esrever »

All right, all right. Thank you for the pedantry, guys. But Fox and Falcon are different and you darn well know why. That was the only way they could include those franchises. There are a billion other ways to include Metroid, which is a game about cool people and monsters shooting each other and not about driving cars. I have absolutely played Zero Mission and in the brief window in which you play as Zero Suit Samus, the stun gun is a deliberately weak, lame, desperate weapon given to you to make you feel powerless, and doesn't do anything even remotely like what they force it to do in Smash Bros to try and build a fighter out of that thing.

Imagine, for a moment, that you are a big Star Wars fan. And they're announcing a new character for Super Star Wars Smash Brawl 2! But... oh. It's not one of the many of the abundant interesting options. It's a second Princess Leia. Slave Bikini Leia! And to give her some attacks... well, Slave Bikini Leia doesn't have any weapons, but she IS in a bikini. So let's give her acid sunblock and an electric beachball that she swings around on the end of one of her chains.

(Sorry, I accidentally made that sound too awesome.)

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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Tsuyoshi-kun »

I'm with Eserver; Zero Suit Samus is lame. She's only there for the sex factor and nothing more. Especially when there are tons of female Fire Emblem characters that would make for great characters in Smash Bros. over her instead. Hell, I'd even take Crystal over her. At least her using a staff would make for a more interesting move set.
Jingles wrote:Toon Link, Falco, Wolf, Ganondorf, Lucas, Ike, and Luigi would like a word.
Except Luigi has different traction, a higher jump, fireballs that aim differently, a completely different forward-B attack (though ripped from Pikachu's), and a different Final Smash from Mario.

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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Crazy Penguin »

I'm pretty psyched for Greninja, it's by far my favourite Gen 6 Pokémon. Definitely adds more flavour to the Smash Bros roster than Lucario replacing Mewtwo did.
Jingles wrote:But man, Zero Suit Samus has really gotten voluptuous since we saw her in Brawl.
I think Sheik having noticeable breasts is the bigger problem. Zelda used to be a lot better at binding!

Image

Image

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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Dash »

I don't mind Zero Suit Samus as a character, as having Samus without the suit should make for an agile fighter who normally has to work with a lot of weight resistance. It's cool to see that she could hold her own without the power suit, but the high heels go against that idea. Too many gadgets and you have to wonder why she's not just wearing the power suit! What they were going for in Brawl with the stun gun and grapple beam seemed like a fine way to go about it, and I think it would have been better to just make her hits a little more effective rather than providing the an explanation for it through accessories. I mean, Sonic seems to pack a little more punch now, and HE hasn't been given rocket-powered Rouge the Bat boots.


As for the issue of boob size, meh. If we're to go by the original game's depiction, her tits weren't exactly small in the first place.

Image

As long as the character is portrayed with a no-nonsense militant attitude and avoids blatant cheesecake poses, I don't think that should matter too much. Characters can have larger breasts and actually be smart, strong, and heroic. In fact I do know some larger breasted women who would enjoy a shapely lady character portrayed in a cool non-sexpot light. Not saying Smash is achieving that though. Personally, I think her arms should be a bit more buff!

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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by G.Silver »

Obviously Zero Suit Samus' appearance in Tomodachi Life is the most appropriate portrayal to date.

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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Dash »

I don't know why she'd go for Iwata. I mean, he's so cold. It's like talking to a dinosaur.

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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Malchik »

Dear Lord, the Zero Suit spasm found it's way over here, too.

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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Neo »

Image

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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Frieza2000 »

In retrospect, it's kind of surprising that Nintendo would choose to revive a franchise where mastering the game was rewarded by having Samus strip down to her underwear. Does she still do that on the Virtual Console ports?

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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Yami CJMErl »

Far as I'm aware, she does. Very little (if anything) is really changed about VC games--the only notable exception being the billboard textures in Wave Race 64, if I recall.

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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

I guess it says more about me than I'd care to acknowledge or admit, that I think a skin-tight body suit is more, erm, risque than traditional panties and crop-top.

It doesn't just leave little of Samus's figure to the imagination, it's a product of little imagination. It's the same damn thing every anime girl who pilots a mech wears. That's a sharp contrast with the wholly idiosyncratic powersuit in its many iterations (Iron Man meets ancient Egypt? It's ineffable.).

But even removed from sexuality it's just a gaudy piece of work.Those colors clash something fierce. Seriously, by definition they do:

Image

Zero Mission credits Hiroji Kiyotake as Samus's designer, but so do most of the Metroid games, often under "Original Character Design", suggesting he has little to do with the series beyond the first few games. Has this man been interviewed anywhere? He really should. (He also created Wario, heh)

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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by G.Silver »

Well, here's one, from 2004: http://www.metroid-database.com/m1/fds-interview-p0.php

It doesn't dwell to much on Metroid but there are some details there, it's a bit in the flavor of Iwata Asks but not nearly so well localized (kudos to the fans who translated it, anyhow). There are two parts, I only skimmed the second one.

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Dr. BUGMAN
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Re: We few, we happy, we Smash Bros. in arms.

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

He says that he was involved only in the first game. Interesting that he continues to get credited for his creations even when he's not involved with that particular game. That's pretty unusual for Japanese games! Must've got the same lawyer as Bob Kane.

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