The GHZ Forum

Crowbar wrote: What d'you mean "these days"? Kids' stuff has always been built to be robust. Remember the Game Boy?

But all gadgets were bulky in the Game Boy era. Mobile phones aimed at executives had a similar make-up.

Oh look, they're finally releasing Sonic Xtreme.

I don't think LW has anything to do with Sonic Xtreme. Although to explain, I'll have to use an anecdote: (Bear with me!)

I wasn't overly impressed with Sonic Colours. Although it was easily better than its predecessors, the colour powers made it very repetitive. So, after beating the final boss I stopped playing. However, since reading Crazy Penguin and Redrappy's comments in this thread I decided to give it another go.

On a second playing, Sonic Colours is easily one of the top 3 Sonic games. Being able to access the additional colour powers not only removes the repetitiveness, but massively increases the exploration. The game actively encourages players to think outside of the box when exploring, to look not only forwards and backwards but upside-down as well. It has a 360° approach to exploration that on many (but not all) levels surprassess even S3&K.

This is where I think Lost World came from: Sonic Team read the reviews of Sonic Colours, realised that most players didn't give the levels a second go and so devised the tube like levels to ensure Colours' 360° exploration was available from the start. It's a natural extension of Sonic Colours that happens to resemble Xtreme and Mario Galaxy.

That opening cutscene was...the scenario of Sonic accidentally releasing Agathea the Fire God by his brash impatience is fine and all, inasmuch as we apparently still need to put up with stories about Eggman harnessing the mojo of infernal deities (sure are a lot of these in Sonic's world!), but the dialogue just reminded me that these are bastardizations of the characters I once loved and I hate every one of them.

Sonic Adventure to Sonic Unleashed had rambling, tangled-up stories, but at least the characters were (for the most part) endearing. Now that just seem like generic cartoon characters, making random quips for cheap laughs. The 'real' Tails would never talk back to Sonic like he does in that LW cutscene.

I suppose it could've started that way, but I'd still say that at some point somebody noticed that this 360° approach resembled what Xtreme was going to look like and a conscious decision was made to present this as the spiritual realization of that legendary abortion. If the game itself contains obvious throwbacks to it then we'll know for sure.

Maybe we'll get lucky and the "I long for death's cold embrace" line belongs to Orbot and Cubot, after which it will be mercifully granted them by an enlightened doctor who's had the sudden revelation that they have no practical reason for existing in the first place.

I'd be genuinely surprised if Sega Japan knew that much about Sonic Xtreme, as they always seem disinterested in Western Sonic (E.g. Yuji Naka had never heard of Mobius or Kintobor).
I am sure they will know of the Xtreme name and will have seen a few screenshots, but in their minds they would probably just consider it to be an American merchandising exercise and lump it with the cartoons and comics.
Plus, all of Xtreme's legend comes from Western magazines and fan sites. It never seems to be big deal on Japanese sites.

Maybe we'll get lucky and the "I long for death's cold embrace" line belongs to Orbot and Cubot, after which it will be mercifully granted them by an enlightened doctor who's had the sudden revelation that they have no practical reason for existing in the first place.

Please!!! Those bots only seem to exist so Eggman can rattle off plot information, but he's done that for over a decade without needing any sidekicks, so why start using them now? If he really needs a second person, then they should just use Metal Sonic (who fulfilled this role brilliantly in the Mario & Sonic London game until Orbot and Cubot showed up). It just doesn't make any sense why Eggman would created two henchmen who are not only devoid of any logic but insult him continually.

'Cause they're successors to Scratch & Grounder! (Sonic X also had a pair of robots, too, but they were deferential in the Japanese flunky sense)

I think these archetypes are less for exposition, and more for villainous contrast. It's hard to take seriously a threat when his/her/its butt is kicked on a routine basis, so flunky chew-toys maintain the menace. The problem, though, is that a video game villain's defeat isn't a foregone conclusion, so such characters are superfluous.

The writers of Unleashed-onwards games seem to be fans of AoStH and seem to been nudging the games proper towards that direction.. I got a feeling Orbot & Cubot are simply being vetted for the upcoming animated series.

I like Orbot. He gives Eggman someone to talk to when the heroes aren't around, and it makes sense that he'd have a butler type robot to perform menial tasks and listen to him gloat or complain. The humour comes from him having the clarity to see all the obvious flaws in Eggman's plans and his optimistic attitude even whilst Eggman is throwing tantrums.

Cubot is a traditional "durr durr" kind of minion, which doesn't really bring much to the table other than giving Orbot someone to talk to when Eggman isn't around. It's at least refreshing that the two of them are good friends who never bicker, despite the significant difference in intelligence.

I like the IDEA of Orbot and Cubot. Their biggest problem in Colours was that they had they had the most dud jokes of anyone in the cast.

But you can't write an interesting villain with giving them other characters with personalities to interact with. (And I don't really want them to give characters like Metal Sonic a personality.) Otherwise, their "in the lair" scenes have no conflict or momentum. I guess that's why every single cartoon incarnation has given him some henchmen... albeit different ones each time! Snivley, Scratch and Grounder, Decoe and Bocoe in Sonic X, those... hideous things in Sonic Underground...

Hey now, Sleet and Dingo were the most entertaining things on Underground!

I really like the concept of henchmen for all of the reasons that were stated above. The problem with the current Orbot/Cubot duo is that Cubot isn't really a character that bounces against either Eggman or Orbot very well; He's a gimmick. He was completely preoccupied by that voice-chip side story in Colors, and I imagine that the only thing he'll do in Lost World is to spout all sorts of puns and other self-aware observations about only having his head. Otherwise, there's really no reason for him to be there. At the very least, Orbot isn't dumb as a rock.

I really liked Orbot in Unleashed; He's the perfect grounded, cynical compliment to Eggman's grandiosity in that game. One of the few things I really disliked about Colors is that Orbot's wry sarcasm was almost completely gone.

Esrever wrote:those... hideous things in Sonic Underground...

Eh? What's all thi-

Wow. I really need to watch an episode of this thing one of these days just to get a better feel for how awful it actually was. Is the fabled Knuckles episode as bad as I've heard?

Meanwhile, Lost World continues to look really fun! I'm going to have to figure out how to play the damn thing here, though. I don't think I've even seen an import store in Beijing carrying the Wii U. Between that and not actually wanting to own said console this will probably be a bit of an ordeal.

While I accept that Eggman needs butler-type robots, I don't understand why he would create two bots whose sole purpose seems to be to continually berate him. There's even a scene in M&SatLO where Eggman has to ask himself why he tolerates them.

Things aren't much better in the canon Sonic games. At one point in Sonic Colours, Eggman is upset about his plans not working, but the moment is sidetracked by Cubot's voice chip drama. Given Eggman's tendency for tantrums, he should have really scrapped Cubot and built a new assistant that works properly. Instead, he calmly tries to manage the situation. It's like he's become a father and has to sideline his domination plans in order to run daddy-day care. They've made him a has-been.

But you can't write an interesting villain with giving them other characters with personalities to interact with. (And I don't really want them to give characters like Metal Sonic a personality.) Otherwise, their "in the lair" scenes have no conflict or momentum

Eggman worked quite well in Sonic Adventure to Sonic 06 without a side-kick. He was forced to get out of his lair in order to explain his plot which generally led to good interactions with the other characters. It also meant that his schemes were gradually unveiled , so we didn't have the problems of recent games where Eggman's plot is revealed early on and then the rest of the story is spent killing time until the final boss.

I think Metal Sonic could work quite well as a side-kick without needing a personality. For one thing, he can't speak and so has to automatically agree with everything Eggman says (and given the doc's ego, that's exactly the type of assistant he would create). Plus, his rivalry with Sonic makes him invested in Eggman's plans.

I think these archetypes are less for exposition, and more for villainous contrast. It's hard to take seriously a threat when his/her/its butt is kicked on a routine basis, so flunky chew-toys maintain the menace. The problem, though, is that a video game villain's defeat isn't a foregone conclusion, so such characters are superfluous.

Eggman's usually has significant victories before his defeats. For example, at the start of Sonic Colours, he achieved the almost impossible feat of capturing several planets, enslaving their inhabitants and building a mind control machine. The fact he loses as the end is a minor detraction from his villainous status.

Yeah, I wasn't too sure of my little thesis there, but, as Penguin and Reverse have put forward, it's more about bouncing personalities than exposition.

The thing about Metal Sonic is that his presence hinges on his inscrutability. Yeah, he's _ostensibly_ subservient to Eggman, but whether or not he respects his master is entirely up to the player. I get the feeling if the two ever succeed in taking down Sonic and friends, they'd be at each other's throats.

M&SatLO

The acronyms have gone out of control.

Things aren't much better in the canon Sonic games. At one point in Sonic Colours, Eggman is upset about his plans not working, but the moment is sidetracked by Cubot's voice chip drama.

You're clearly underestimating the important role that Cubot serves, which is that he reminds us of similar gags from much better CG movies.

Metal Sonic is a terrible lacky for the reason Dr. Bugman mentioned and also because he'd run the risk of overexposure. If you have cool robot hedgehogs all the time then they're gonna lose their mystique really fast.

I think the problem is that the robot lackies are specific characters, you have to wonder why they exist at all. A really good model, I always go back to this, is the Sonic OVA, where any one of his Swatbot-alike robots can serve as a comedic lacky or all-purpose muscle as needed, you can kill them off, Eggman can abuse them, etc. The early Archie comics did pretty well (did I just say that?) with the badniks too, there would always be one around (usually crabmeat?) for Robotnik to explain the plot to and to make snide coments. I recall one specifically where he explains the plot and then stuffs them all into a recycling machine to make a better robot, which was the very plan he just explained, but then the badniks are back next month like normal. Even the Egg Pawns, characters that I really don't like at all, could easily serve in this kind of role. In game, also just makes more sense to me to have the characters Eggman interacts with be the same ones the player interacts with, it creates a certain sense of connection. If there are a couple lackies who only exist in cut scenes, you aren't going to build any connection with that, but if it's the same enemies you've been destroying through the course of the game, then it builds on a certain kind of existing relationship.

I'm not a SatAM guy but Snivley is also interesting, because it's one thing when Robotnik builds his lackies, it's something else when for some reason there is ONE GUY who is there for some reason. I don't recall if they ever gave a reason, but that he had any agency of his own made him better, just because it gave the viewer something to wonder about.

Snivley is his nephew, isn't he? (Or is that only in the comic?) I guess family is one reason to tolerate someone.

And of course, in the show, Snivley was the only other human, which could explain the special treatment. I think I remember reading somewhere that the show's main writer imagined that the show took place in a far future where humans were extinct and animals had evolved, and Robotnik and Snivley were actually past humans who had been warped there somehow.

In the games, I think Eggman would benefit from being paired with another enemy character. But not an incompetent henchman, and not an uncontrollable rival who inevitably betrays him. More like a hired gun character... the character who can get away with back-talking to the main villain because he is ultimately useful and trustworthy enough to be worth keeping around. I really like Eggman's voice actor, and I think he'd really benefit from having another intelligent "bad guy" character to banter with. (Like he did, oh so briefly, with himself in Generations.) All he ever really gets to do with the other characters in the franchise, hero or henchmen, is threaten and/or yell at them.

big_smile wrote: On a second playing, Sonic Colours is easily one of the top 3 Sonic games. Being able to access the additional colour powers not only removes the repetitiveness, but massively increases the exploration. The game actively encourages players to think outside of the box when exploring, to look not only forwards and backwards but upside-down as well. It has a 360° approach to exploration that on many (but not all) levels surprassess even S3&K.

It's amazing how many people would realize this too if they just gave the game a fair shake. It's definitely one of the better sonic out there and easily the best 3d game.

Here's hoping it wasn't a fluke.

I really liked Colors, but I'd say those tank-like controls they kept from Unleashed are pretty tough for most people to get into. I mean there were definite improvements, but it was still odd. At slow speeds, I was wishing that Sonic felt more like the Werehog. There was a certain weight and degree of control that just isn't there with Sonic in the running stages, and I'm not sure why they made this decision consciously. I would still count Colors, Generations, and most of Unleashed as good games however, even if the general perception is still pretty poor.

BTW got to mess around with the demo at PAX, and it's looking nice. Holding a run button in a Sonic game is still a very foreign concept to me though.

Oh and if we're talking good Eggman villainy, the recent comics are really worth a look. He has people turning themselves into cyborgs to pledge their allegiance to his empire, complete with built-in killswitches should they get out of line. He's gets a lot of good banter time and the dialogue is pretty boss.

New Japanese Deadly Six intro reel

It may just be that a friend recently got me into watching One Piece (it's pretty good!) and I am feeling a little weeaboo, but I love those distinct Japanese villain cackles. I do hope the JP voice track is included. Sonic games have always been good about that though, so that is probably low on the list of things to worry about.

Also, speaking of One Piece and Sonic in the same breath, I recognized Junpei Takiguchi(voice of Eggman in the Sonic OVA) as Nelson Royale! It was an exciting find, but I also found out he passed away in 2011 from stomach cancer. Sad times. He had an amazing voice.


Still surprised no one called me out on my poor proofreading above. Still, it was late at night, so I still have an excuse :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D6OAoRgNwM

Deep bodies of water are no longer insta-death.

Amy makes her appearance, though not really hinting at her role in the story. Not sure if that's Knuckles in the 3DS multiplayer, or a red Sonic clone.

More interesting are the toy RC vehicles, which are unlocked via 3DS connectivity. (wonder what they do!)

PS. It's been brought to my attention that the Sinister Six's respective colors correspond to the Chaos Emeralds. Not making anything of it, but I thought it was interesting enough to share.

That Bomb power looks neat.

And I can't wait to "pahkuru!"

This video has reminded me of design decisions that I did not like when I tried the demo at PAX. I kept trying to write something about it but never did! The bits in here where they attempt to "parkour" and have Sonic run up walls and stuff, I can't get over how rough that felt to me, like it seemed like there should have been a way to stick to the wall without losing all your speed, but seeing it here I guess I was doing it right all along. The bomb power up was also strangely selective about what I could pick up with, some enemies it would grab, and others it would bounce off of (with me losing rings in the process!), which seemed really arbitrary. For what they took from Mario Galaxy, they didn't really take as much of a sense of polish and smoothness as they could have. What Rappy said before about "could be great with a little polish" really rang true for my experience, but I think they've been beyond making any changes at that level for a long time.

Still, when I see all those crazy level structures, it looks good enough--I want it!

G.Silver wrote:The bomb power up was also strangely selective about what I could pick up with, some enemies it would grab, and others it would bounce off of (with me losing rings in the process!), which seemed really arbitrary. For what they took from Mario Galaxy, they didn't really take as much of a sense of polish and smoothness as they could have. What Rappy said before about "could be great with a little polish" really rang true for my experience, but I think they've been beyond making any changes at that level for a long time.

Are you talking about the snowball level? And I agree, the game seems to be lacking in polish. It's something ST never quite understood.

I just played the first one. Maybe my experience was colored by the guy who was standing next to the demo:

A thing that happens as you play is that a thing pops up on the screen occasionally that suggests something about the screen on the controller, like maybe I should look at it. I'd get to a "safe" position or stop bopping enemies or whatever, and look down at the screen, which was always the same, just a map of the level and some icons down the side. I asked the guy what it was about, and he said something I couldn't hear, and then pressed an on-screen button that turned me into a bomb. I guess this is a preview of what technology will be like when I'm 60 or 70.

G.Silver wrote:I just played the first one. Maybe my experience was colored by the guy who was standing next to the demo:

A thing that happens as you play is that a thing pops up on the screen occasionally that suggests something about the screen on the controller, like maybe I should look at it. I'd get to a "safe" position or stop bopping enemies or whatever, and look down at the screen, which was always the same, just a map of the level and some icons down the side. I asked the guy what it was about, and he said something I couldn't hear, and then pressed an on-screen button that turned me into a bomb. I guess this is a preview of what technology will be like when I'm 60 or 70.

I legit laughed at this. I really hate how it's gotten to the point where there is a move scripted to almost every button AND touch screen controls to top it all off. This used to be a goddamn one button game.

Radrappy wrote: I really hate how it's gotten to the point where there is a move scripted to almost every button AND touch screen controls to top it all off. This used to be a goddamn one button game.

"How many buttons does it have?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... eUM0#t=270

So this actually probably goes in some kind of "oh look at Valve" thread, but on the subject of Using All the Buttons, look at this ridiculous thing:

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/09/27/valve ... ontroller/

This is the new controller for whatever Valve is doing I guess. I am curious about those discs, that could be a neat mouse alternative, but of course I am not wild about its complete lack of game-friendly face buttons. But what really gets me is that Portal 2 control scheme layout at the bottom, which has no less than 16 functions, none of which is jump. Am I missing something here? Was jumping not a thing I did in Portal 2?

It's probably mapped to pressing the left disc (MOVEMENT, with a filled circle reading SP..., probably SPACE, which is the default jump button). But that shouldn't stop us from trying to find stuff wrong with it before anyone even holds the damn thing.

So it turns out the last of the three "exclusive Nintendo" titles was what everyone expected it to be.