Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

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Esrever
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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Esrever »

Well, that's the right attitude for artists and developers to have! lol

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Jingles »

Takashi Iizuka wrote:I'm the only one who knows what's best for Sonic though, so.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Radrappy »

Jingles wrote:
Takashi Iizuka wrote:I'm the only one who knows what's best for Sonic though, so.
I'm more convinced than ever that this man needs to be taken off the franchise. The last ten years absolutely smack of terrible leadership and poor taste.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Neo »

Radrappy wrote:I'm more convinced than ever that this man needs to be taken off the franchise. The last ten years absolutely smack of terrible leadership and poor taste.
You know, with each new game in the series I get the feeling Iizuka isn't the red devil everyone makes him out to be. If you ignore the werehog for a bit, this last generation of Sonic games actually had a pretty good direction and some good gameplay ideas across the board. I'd wager top brass is only giving the team about 9-12 months of development time for each game, so nothing ever gets the chance to be polished. And then it flops and that game is considered No Good and they demand the direction to do yet another 180, which is why they can never seem to just take the good stuff from the previous game and make decent levels for it.

Or maybe not. I mean, after the overwhelming success that Generations was (whether it was a good game or not is irrelevant, only overall reception matters in this scenario), who would ever decide that a slower, parkour-based game set in spherical worlds should be the next move for the franchise?

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Radrappy »

Neo wrote:
Radrappy wrote:I'm more convinced than ever that this man needs to be taken off the franchise. The last ten years absolutely smack of terrible leadership and poor taste.
You know, with each new game in the series I get the feeling Iizuka isn't the red devil everyone makes him out to be. If you ignore the werehog for a bit, this last generation of Sonic games actually had a pretty good direction and some good gameplay ideas across the board. I'd wager top brass is only giving the team about 9-12 months of development time for each game, so nothing ever gets the chance to be polished. And then it flops and that game is considered No Good and they demand the direction to do yet another 180, which is why they can never seem to just take the good stuff from the previous game and make decent levels for it.

Or maybe not. I mean, after the overwhelming success that Generations was (whether it was a good game or not is irrelevant, only overall reception matters in this scenario), who would ever decide that a slower, parkour-based game set in spherical worlds should be the next move for the franchise?
Exactly. This is where leadership/actual direction comes in. Why would you decide to make 5 radical changes as opposed to one or two manageable ones? I don't care if their development cycle is only a year, they should know better than to bite off more than they can chew. It's also iizuka's responsibility to look at a game and say "woooah there is a lot of really unfair level design in this baby. Let's make sure it doesn't ship in this shape!"

These guys have been making games long enough to know what they're putting on the market.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Esrever »

I always wonder if Iizuka gets too much credit or not enough. Producers are important, but these games do also have actual directors (Iizuka hasn't directed a console Sonic title since Shadow), and we never really hear what those directors think or what level of design autonomy they have when planning their respective games. Indeed, if they have a LOT of autonomy, that might be part of the reason why the series changes so frequently.

Sonic '06 was directed by Shun Nakamura, who previously had directed Samba de Amigo and Billy Hatcher, and has since directed (the awesome) Rhythm Thief. After '06, he hasn't directed another title, but he did level design for Generations.

Sonic Unleashed was directed by Yoshihisa Hashimoto, who then left for Squeenix.

Morio Kishimoto directed Colors and Lost World. There's a temptation to infer a design sensibility there (greater emphasis on platforming)... but of course, maybe they are just executing whatever ideas are promoted by the higher ups.

Hiroshi Miyamoto directed Generations, and given that the game was well-received and that they still work at Sonic Team, are most likely directing the next regular Sonic title as well. If he does, the focus of that game may be telling, as far as what level of independence these directors have.

Kenjiro Morimoto directed all three Sonic Riders games and who knows, maybe he'll make a fourth one for the next Kinnect.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Radrappy »

Esrever wrote:I always wonder if Iizuka gets too much credit or not enough. Producers are important, but these games do also have actual directors (Iizuka hasn't directed a console Sonic title since Shadow), and we never really hear what those directors think or what level of design autonomy they have when planning their respective games. Indeed, if they have a LOT of autonomy, that might be part of the reason why the series changes so frequently.

Sonic '06 was directed by Shun Nakamura, who previously had directed Samba de Amigo and Billy Hatcher, and has since directed (the awesome) Rhythm Thief. After '06, he hasn't directed another title, but he did level design for Generations.

Sonic Unleashed was directed by Yoshihisa Hashimoto, who then left for Squeenix.

Morio Kishimoto directed Colors and Lost World. There's a temptation to infer a design sensibility there (greater emphasis on platforming)... but of course, maybe they are just executing whatever ideas are promoted by the higher ups.

Hiroshi Miyamoto directed Generations, and given that the game was well-received and that they still work at Sonic Team, are most likely directing the next regular Sonic title as well. If he does, the focus of that game may be telling, as far as what level of independence these directors have.

Kenjiro Morimoto directed all three Sonic Riders games and who knows, maybe he'll make a fourth one for the next Kinnect.
That's a fair point and I really had my hopes up for SLW given that was helmed by the Colors guy.

As for Iizuka, I had always assumed that he was a Miyamoto-esque figure who was the absolute last word on quality control. Miyamoto is famous for repeatedly delaying games until they were something he would be proud to release but It's clear that such a mindset is absent from our buddies at ST.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Esrever »

Yes, there is a long tradition to rush Sonic games out the door early to make deadline, isn't there? All the way back to Sonic 3.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Neo »

There's also Sonic 2, which according to our documented prototypes had stuff like Super Sonic and the final title screen implemented only weeks before launch. Sonic 1 was likely rushed too, since it was such an important game at the time, and this is supported by the Japanese version that was released a bit later, which sports a bunch of cosmetic tweaks here and there.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by G.Silver »

As for Iizuka, I had always assumed that he was a Miyamoto-esque figure who was the absolute last word on quality control.
*spit take*
There's also Sonic 2, which according to our documented prototypes had stuff like Super Sonic and the final title screen implemented only weeks before launch. Sonic 1 was likely rushed too, since it was such an important game at the time, and this is supported by the Japanese version that was released a bit later, which sports a bunch of cosmetic tweaks here and there.
Sonic 1 may have been rushed but it also had an incredibly long development period for the time it was made in, supposedly a full year and a half. (How many other Sonic titles can you say that about?) At that time, at least, they were very concerned with getting things exactly right.

I wonder if Sega is surprised by the low scores? Will it effect sales? I'm beginning to wonder if Sonic's lack of focus is completely intentional, like it's better to be wildly inconsistent than it is to risk being accused of being "the same old thing." Like maybe they actually want to be divisive, just to keep people talking about it.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Radrappy »

G.Silver wrote:*spit take*
I meant it more to be a comparison of involvement as opposed to actual function. In the sense that he's only there to occasionally check in on things as opposed to directly running the show himself at this point.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Frieza2000 »

It's probably even less than that. Some time after 2k6 we had theorized that he'd been relegated to a PR role. If it weren't for his notoriety as the last man with a recognizable name I suspect he would've been quietly assigned one of those irrelevant jobs they give out as punishments in Japan by at least Journey of Dreams.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

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Forgot about this. Hashimoto did do some interviews for Unleashed, in which he says the initial pitch/concept document for the game was created by him and the art director, Sachiko Kawamura, and that the core idea of Werehog character than emphasized arm movement over leg movement was their idea, as was the game's basic story.

http://www.destructoid.com/destructoid- ... 3374.phtml

I seem to remember him mentioning in a different interview that he was the one who really spearheaded trying to get Sonic's in game model to look really "right", including Sonic's magical sidemouth. (Thank you, Hashimoto.)

Anyway, long story short, I think the director's actually have quite a bit of influence! I wish Morio Kishimoto had done some press for Colors.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

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Popcorn wrote:Unfortunately, "you're playing it wrong" is never a reasonable argument.
Isn't it? I get that a game should be fun no matter how you're playing it, but ignoring key functions of the game is only doing a disservice to yourself and everyone involved. That video Gsilv posted is actually some of the only footage I've seen so far with spindash use. I'm seeing a lot of complaints about Sonic's speed, but not a single justification for never pressing the dedicated Go Fast button. Maybe they're writing it off as some useless slide attack and not holding the button long enough to realize it's a 3rd gear? Maybe they needed a popup and a mandatory tutorial stage to convey that? Has the industry bred the impulse to experiment with our tools right out of us?

And on that subject I'm all aflutter that they've finally reintroduced (and canonized!) SA1's spindash ramp launching. Despite me having always known better than anyone what was best for Sonic, their control scheme is astonishingly on point and actually exceeds my designs. Gated speed is intelligent, universal wall running is a great idea- Sega's got virtually every mechanic we've ever clamored for in one game and we're just a few momentum saving adjustments away from something really great, only they're probably just going to scrap everything and veer off in a totally wrong direction now because people don't know what they want. Sonic fandom is an infinite and unrelenting purgatory, a dwelling for restless souls who persecute and are persecuted in turn. Silver's dream... Will it ever come true? His dream of an absolution...?

Anyway I still really want to play this. Also sheesh, Eggman!

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

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Ritz wrote:And on that subject I'm all aflutter that they've finally reintroduced (and canonized!) SA1's spindash ramp launching. Despite me having always known better than anyone what was best for Sonic, their control scheme is astonishingly on point and actually exceeds my designs. Gated speed is intelligent, universal wall running is a great idea- Sega's got virtually every mechanic we've ever clamored for in one game and we're just a few momentum saving adjustments away from something really great, only they're probably just going to scrap everything and veer off in a totally wrong direction now because people don't know what they want. Sonic fandom is an infinite and unrelenting purgatory, a dwelling for restless souls who persecute and are persecuted in turn.
Are you in my brain? This is exactly how I feel about this whole SLW debacle. It's pretty much exactly what I've always wanted on paper and I really hope they stick with this and absolutely knock it out of the park next time. Really excited to play the game come tuesday.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Majestic Joey »

Shame I'll never get to play this game since I don't own a wii U or know anyone that owns it. I got to say despite the mixed reception, from all the videos I saw, this game looks really good and I agree, the mechanics they added to the controls sound awesome.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

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Majestic Joey wrote:Shame I'll never get to play this game since I don't own a wii U or know anyone that owns it. I got to say despite the mixed reception, from all the videos I saw, this game looks really good and I agree, the mechanics they added to the controls sound awesome.
you can come to my house

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

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So apparently Amazon.ca screwed up and sent me the game like 5 days early! Woo!

Here are my thoughts, I have spoilered them just in case:

I have only played through the entirety of Windy Hill Zone, and so far I'm really liking it!

The controls take some time to get used to - the parkour especially is really weird. You kinda have to run up to a wall to use it, you can't spindash immediately next to it. It's hard to explain. One thing I noticed was cool is that only the R2 button makes you run, if you press the L2 button while walking you go into a neat SA2 somersault which is really useful. The game suggests jumping with B, but you can jump and homing attack with A, so I'm not using B.

The level design is very nice indeed, even if it apes Mario Galaxy just a biiiiiiiit too often. Windy Hill Zone 1 is really fun to play through, especially. The only problem with the levels that I've had so far is that the boss - I've fought him twice at this point - is very easy, but I'm sure that's just because it's World 1 and OH YEAH THE GAME IS FOR KIDS SILLY ME

Music and Graphics are really ace... this is no doubt the best sounding game on the Wii U, if nothing else. I'd link you to a video here but embedded URLs and spoiler tags don't mix.


I look forward to playing more of it soon!

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

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So I got the game last night. I was the only person at the midnight launch there for Sonic in a sea of Battlefield/Assassin's creed bros. When I told the cashiers I was there for lost world, they cheered.

The game itself is adequately fun. I was unhappy with Generations so I think I'm more open to this game than most. It's fun to get items through the challenges though it's very easy to forget you even have them. The only level thus far I've really hated was Tropical Coast 1 due to its confusing layout and muddled goals. Alternately, I think the best level so far has been the fruit juicing Tropical Coast 2. I actually even liked the rail grinding level even though I've hated them in other games. The addition of red rails that slow you down and green ones that speed you up was a smart one.

What's immediately shocking about the game is the lengths to which they had to reinvent the wheel just to get a free roaming 3d sonic game working again. It needs a lot of tooling but I don't think I can go back to the terrible boost styled racing track gameplay after this. Hopefully they make another game in this style that features levels comprised entirely of Desert Ruins Act 1/ Tropical coast Act 2 styled levels. The game works best in wide open environments where you can see obstacles coming and there aren't so many cheap pitfalls waiting.

So far I'm liking it a tiny bit more than Generations, and considerably less than Colors. I've only made it to the 4th world though, and according to reviewers that's where it all goes south. I've already started stocking up on lives, which may aid the coming frustration.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

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Totally going to your house to play that game.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Esrever »

I just arrived at World 4. Sonic's new control scheme is interesting, and the variable speed and parkour moves open up a lot of interesting avenues for more open, multi-tiered design... but so far, only two or three of the twelve stages have really taken advantage of it.

The rest (ie: the bulk) of the game's stages have either been very Mario-esque one-off tasks based around a level-exclusive gimmick, or 2D stages... and while few of these have been terrible, few of them have been great, either. The one-offs would maybe be refreshing if there weren't so many of them, but because there are, they just kind of bum you out because they feel like they are depriving you of the "real" Sonic levels. And the 2D stages, while serviceable, are all super-linear affairs that lack the imagination or complexity of their equivalents in Generations or even Sonic Rush.

Anyhow, it has it's moments, and it'll be fun for folks like me who enjoy the "find all five widgets" aspect of platformers, but it feels pretty scattershot and a little half-baked.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Malchik »

Esrever wrote:but it feels pretty scattershot and a little half-baked.
Yup. Sonic game.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Rob-Bert »

Sometimes I wonder if some of you guys actively want new Sonic games to be bad.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Crisis »

Maybe if the developers read our my posts there wouldn't be any bad Sonic games!!!

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by gr4yJ4Y »

This is definitely worse than either Colors or Generations, but better than either episode of Sonic 4 or bottom-barrel stuff like Shadow or 06. So take that for what it's worth.

I thought reviewers were being too harsh on it during the first 3 worlds, but being now on World 5 I can tell that it just doesn't come together. You get moments of good to brilliant level design amidst a sea of boring or bad levels (the snowball level comes to mind). The game will let you pause and see an explaination of how things work for basic things like jumping by pressing B, but never does a good job of explaining more complex things like the parkour system (which you have to learn through trial and error on levels that are typically unforgiving). The whisps are implemented in very boring ways within the levels and will disappoint fans of Colors. The graphics start off as charming surrealism but get a little plain as the game goes on (a lot of checkers throughout).

Maybe it will get better in the later levels...?

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