Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

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Esrever
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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Esrever »

I SEE THE DRILL IS COMING BACK (the drill is my favourite Sonic power up of all time)

I generally like the look of the Windy Hill stage, but I a) love the disjointed planetoid format of the Mario Galaxy games, and b) love exploring for hidden stuff, which there appears to be a lot of. Those big tubes that you can run all the way around are an interesting way of making the game feel more "open" while still sticking you on an essentially linear path. I was a little put off by how slow the "running" Sonic is at first, but it's interesting seeing a 3D Sonic paced at the speed of the actual Genesis games.

The 2D Candy stage didn't do it for me. It reminded me of the Sonic Advance games.... all the usual loops and springs and other Sonic stuff, but just kind of floating around in space, with no sense of location or landmarks to tie it all together. Compare it to something like the big Hamburger stage in Colours, which was similar both structurally and thematically, but way more cohesive.

Runner stages could be a fun side diversion if the design holds up. There's a tradition for that kind of thing in the old games' bonus stages, after all. Thank god it looks nothing like those mach speed segments from '06.

Overall, it's hard to know exactly what to think, since it's obviously going to be a very diverse compartmentalized game. Looks like there are going to be 3d stages, 2D stages (we know there's a 2D Windy Hill stage from the trailer), autorunner stages, and who knows what else. I saw a lot of stuff that looked fun. But I definitely didn't see anything yet that I liked as much as my favourite stages in Colours or Generations. And it really depends if these stages are indicative of the rest of the game -- a similar 3D, 2D, and autorunner stage for every world -- or if this is going to be Mario Galaxy-styled series of one-off stages that stays compelling because of how continuously varied and imaginative its ideas are.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Radrappy »

My biggest complaint is that the wiiu sonic controls look to be not quite there. He's still too squirrly, doesn't feel weighted down to the ground or affected by physics, and the camera has an awkward time keeping up with him.

Strangely enough, in this 3ds video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koMru0MVkYw

Sonic has just enough weight to him so that it feels very natural and the camera tracks him smoothly. Why is it that Dimps can nail something like this so easily while the official ST can't seem to get it? I've secretly suspected for years that Dimps is actually the better developer (in terms of making a functional game model, the terrible Sonic 4 notwithstanding. Say what you will about Unleashed for wii/ps2 but it was actually easier, more of a joy to control sonic in that game) but seeing these two clips in motion really highlights where ST's shortcomings are. I HOPE they can make the wiiu movement more like the 3ds version before this baby launches in the fall.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

I'm not too keen on the Oil Ocean cannons, since I found them tedious back in '92, but I guess Sonic needs some equivalent to Mario's launch stars. Nice to see Sonic's now cribbing from Twinbee as well. :razz:

And why is Sonic auto-running in the honey comb zone? Couldn't they come up with some in-game incentive like that lady caterkiller from the 3DS version, but with angry bees, or like he ate an especially spicy chili dog and there's a glass of milk at the end. Feels arbitrary that he just fucking feels like running okay, the hell with you, player.

And I miss the days when Youtube didn't show avatars.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Jingles »

That invincibility music is the Sonic Heroes theme.

Why

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Wombatwarlord777 »

The level design on the WiiU version is certainty... crazy, especially in that first level. It looks like there's a whole bunch of places to go, but it does look a little confusing. On the other hand that certainly encourages slower exploration, which is what most of us have been clamoring for for years, and it looks like the control scheme finally caters to that in 3D.

I dislike the food desert candy level as well, moreso in that it's its just a bunch of really thin platforms linked together. I loved Sweet Mountain, but I honestly wouldn't mind a big-ol' pile of food in the middle of nowhere. But the way things are, it's visually uninteresting. While that makes for easier (or maybe just more focused?) platforming, I like my flashy visuals. On the other hand, I normally hate secrets that are situated below the bottom of the screen in 2D platformers, which require you to make a blind jump into a normally dangerous void (DKC, I'm looking at you!). However, the camera twisted around as Sonic approached the last secret pointed out in the candy level, which allows the player to see where it is before you reach the gap to access it, where it is out of view. That's a really cool application of 2.5D level design that encourages the player to pay attention to extra rewards in parts of the level that aren't accessible yet, and I have to give kudos for that.

I don't have much to say about the honeycomb level, except to say that it gave me horrific flashbacks of Sonic and the Secret Rings and Sonic 2006's mach-speed sections. I hate that type of on-rails non-stop running, but admittedly only because it hasn't been properly done in a Sonic game yet. Things could be different here, but it's hard to judge from that video.

I agree that things looked better on the 3DS version of the game. The level design seems a lot less complex and easier to follow, and even then it certainty had multiple paths. I really loved the rolling stone gimmick in the Egyptian ruins level, and the overall level design was just really pleasing. We got to see the parkour mechanics more clearly in the 3DS video, which in that run seemed to be unwieldy in 3D but a useful and logical extension of the spin-dash in 2D. Also, I'm pleased that the Elemental shields are back and that they're apparently important to complete some of the game's puzzles.

It's kind of a shame that we didn't get to see the Wisp powers showcased more thoroughly. I was looking forward to the drill power-up as well!

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by big_smile »

It's perplexing that a candy stage and a honeycomb forest stage fall under the "Desert Ruins" zone name, but at least it bodes well for variety!
I wonder if its a misspelling and it's supposed to be Dessert Ruins, as candy and the honey from honeycombs are kind of desserts (although I don't get the ruins part).

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Esrever »

Based on this playthrough, I'd guess the reason Sonic's "run" looks like the Super Peel Out is because of how it charges on the spot when you hold the run button without moving.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZHaIv00 ... r_embedded#!

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

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Esrever wrote:Based on this playthrough, I'd guess the reason Sonic's "run" looks like the Super Peel Out is because of how it charges on the spot when you hold the run button without moving.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZHaIv00 ... r_embedded#!
I was ready to start dreading this thing--because hey, Sonic game--but fuck it, that all looks fun as hell.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Esrever »

It's interesting to read the interviews with Iizuka and basically hear him say that, sure, they COULD have made another Colours/Generations style game since people liked those, but they got kind of tired of them and wanted to do something different instead. When was the last time they could say that?

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Blank »

This past E3 has made me want to talk about video games again, and first thing that came to mind was coming back to this place to read about the new Sonic game.

Its interesting to say the least. I feel like there's more research done here into subjects that before I could have painted them as indifferent to. So with some introspection there were three things I've always wanted from a Sonic game that brewed as game ideas in my head for a long time.

1) Abstract levels to evolve upon the multi-tier layouts they had in Sonic 3K. This is done exactly how I imagined with extra-dimensions added upon an essentially 2D path.

2) Sonic needs a way to slow down at will so he can explore and the player can take each challenge at their own pace. Bam, you can now slow down and there is a sprint/spindash button. With extra emphasis on "precision platforming" and other such segments where you prefer tight controls.

3) More context-sensitive ways to interact with levels that take more thought/are more engaging then boosters and springs. Parkour system.

I'm not ashamed to be excited but I'll admit they have their work cut out for them in executing this properly. I guess we'll see. Lots of games on the WiiU taking my interest this upcoming year as well as next year.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Crazy Penguin »

Another interview.
NWR: When you look back at the original Sonic the Hedgehog, it featured one button gameplay, run and you jump. Over time, more moves have been introduced, and maybe a little more complexity. How do you balance the additional movesets with trying to keep the game accessible and easy to understand?

TI: It's always a challenge. It's something we're thinking about it in development all the time. How to add complexity for the advanced user, but keep things simple and easy on the other hand. Especially when Sonic is moving fast you don't want to have a lot of buttons you have to push. As much as possible you want to limit your button pushes while your running to one thing or maybe two things at the most. Something that people can always push intuitively, immediately without thinking about it. An example where we were thinking about this in the new game is the homing attack and the double jump. In the past, we've always had the homing attack on the same button as the jump and you know that's great for simplicity, but there are development trade-offs. Sometimes you want to double jump and you push 'A' 'A' but the game doesn't read it contextually, it's hard to read exactly what the player wants to do. Sometimes the player even with enemies there, they want to double jump, but it does a homing attack so we decided to address that this time by having both the 'A' and 'B' button do a jump, but one of the buttons always does a jump with the homing attack and one always does a double jump. That way you can still push one to do a quick jump, but then you can separate your intentions by using one or the other.
This is an interesting approach. I don't recall ever having any trouble with the double jump and homing attack in Sonic Colours, but it sounds like it'll make for a smoother experience. Has it been mentioned anywhere just how the kick attack is performed?

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Radrappy »

It's so bizarre to agree completely with almost everything Iizuka has said in this interview. Usually I roll my eyes at his comments and peg him as the reason the series has gone down hill. But all that noise about slowing the game down, simplifying the visuals, and giving two jump buttons really sound good and make a lot of sense.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Locit »

Radrappy wrote:It's so bizarre to agree completely with almost everything Iizuka has said in this interview.
Right? It's usually either that or just sigh at his non-answers, but here he is making all kinds of goddamn sense.

It's unsettling.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Dash »

Is all this talk about Sega actually working with Nintendo directly true? Like, maybe Iizuka had a good talk with Miyamoto or something.
I remember somebody on here (I forget who) once suggested that a good way to subvert the Really Big Super Sonic Fight At The End™ was to have Sonic start the battle in super mode and then lose it and have to finish the fight as regular old Sonic. Fighting against Perfect Chaos in Generations was kinda similar to this, and it was my favorite boss battle in the whole game.
I recall mentioning that in some hypothetical 3D game ideas thread, but maybe someone else did too. I was talking about using Super Sonic to break through the hull of some mega death machine and then regular Sonic, either limited by rings or loss of emeralds, would destroy the gooey Eggman core. Colors game me hope they were willing to have a final boss without Super-ing up (they even resisted doing a Secret Rings style alternate Colors super form too! Rainbow Sonic would have been interesting.), so its not too far fetched to think they might try it.

It's weird. I always loved Super Sonic as a bonus, but it's tough after Doomsday Zone came along to make a mainline game without an equivalent Super Powered fight. I only felt it was forced from Sonic Heroes onward, but maybe it was a bad thing in the long run? In a broad comic booky way, I'm a fan of how Sonic is special and can flexibly turn into different forms with mystical objects, even the Werehog despite it playing out in a dull way (that transformation was explained with negative emerald energy right?). It's definitely a "cool" factor that made Sonic a bigger deal to me than Mario when I was little. Sonic by himself is quite special enough though, and I'd hate to ever see a game bogged down by that.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... UM0#t=243s

"How many buttons do you play the game with?"

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Radrappy »

Dash wrote:
It's weird. I always loved Super Sonic as a bonus, but it's tough after Doomsday Zone came along to make a mainline game without an equivalent Super Powered fight. I only felt it was forced from Sonic Heroes onward, but maybe it was a bad thing in the long run? In a broad comic booky way, I'm a fan of how Sonic is special and can flexibly turn into different forms with mystical objects, even the Werehog despite it playing out in a dull way (that transformation was explained with negative emerald energy right?). It's definitely a "cool" factor that made Sonic a bigger deal to me than Mario when I was little. Sonic by himself is quite special enough though, and I'd hate to ever see a game bogged down by that.
The issue with modern Super Sonic fights are that they are functionally very different from the game you've been playing for the past 10 hours(that's me being generous. 6 hours is probably more accurate these days). An ideal final boss should be the culmination of all the skills you've acquired through the course of the game. Your beating this foe would effectively be your graduation from the title. Modern Sonic games totally spit on this concept by making the final bosses self contained mini games with their own set of convoluted rules and nuances, resulting in an almost always terribly designed spectacle piece that does nothing to affirm all the hard work it took to get there.

Doomsday zone is actually very much in line with the rest of the game from a playability stand point. The only difference is that you are forced forwards and have a limited amount of time to succeed in the form of the ring counter. It was simple to play and required no explanation what so ever.

The worst offender of this was actually the most recent title, Generations. The game tries extremely hard to explain to you how the boss fight works and even goes as far as having off screen characters yell suggestions at you in an attempt to clear things up. You know you've got trouble when you have to effectively narrate an entire boss fight just so the player isn't completely lost. And even then the fight made no fucking sense. Who ever was the scenario designer for that boss fight should be fired.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Esrever »

It was pretty tragic how big a mess Generations final boss was. The worst for me will always be the Unleashed final boss, though... that one irritated me so much that I put the game down and didn't go back to finish it for months. There have been a lot of bad, mechanically "left field" final bosses in Sonic history, but that stupid rock golem BS has gotta be the nadir.

It's funny to think that the boss fights in Sonic were once so important and cool an element that they decided to start having twice as many. Now they're lucky if they can come up with three workable boss concepts per game. Even the modern games that I really like, Colours or Generations, are just sorta barely passable in the boss department. (Generations' final boss excepted.)

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Popcorn »

Dash wrote:
Doomsday zone is actually very much in line with the rest of the game from a playability stand point. The only difference is that you are forced forwards and have a limited amount of time to succeed in the form of the ring counter.
Is this really true? Seems to me it was completely different, playing more like a side-scrolling bullet hell shooter (in that you can position Sonic anywhere on the screen, and have to dodge dense clouds of moving obstacles) than a platformer (in that there are no platforms or in fact any jumping element at all).

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Radrappy »

Popcorn wrote:
Dash wrote:
Doomsday zone is actually very much in line with the rest of the game from a playability stand point. The only difference is that you are forced forwards and have a limited amount of time to succeed in the form of the ring counter.
Is this really true? Seems to me it was completely different, playing more like a side-scrolling bullet hell shooter (in that you can position Sonic anywhere on the screen, and have to dodge dense clouds of moving obstacles) than a platformer (in that there are no platforms or in fact any jumping element at all).
When I think about it, I guess you're right. It was quite different. Luckily the objectives were clear enough that nothing needed to be explained to the player.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by G.Silver »

When I think about it, I guess you're right. It was quite different. Luckily the objectives were clear enough that nothing needed to be explained to the player.
I'll admit to having not figured out that I was destroying the sub boss by luring its missiles back into its small vulnerable parts. I actually defeated it the first time without having any idea that was how I'd damaged it.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Neo »

G.Silver wrote:I'll admit to having not figured out that I was destroying the sub boss by luring its missiles back into its small vulnerable parts. I actually defeated it the first time without having any idea that was how I'd damaged it.
Throwing in my two cents, it was perfectly intuitive to me what I had to do when I first played it (being somewhere between 5 and 10 years old), but then when I got to the second phase I didn't realize you had to dash in order to reach the boss until the whole thing looped around twice -- I thought it was just a breather area to get more rings.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Crazy Penguin »

Sonic Adventure is the only one that had the right idea with a Super Sonic boss - running and jumping.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by Wombatwarlord777 »

^ Totally agree.

The only reason, in my opinion, that Doomsday is necessarily any better than, say, Final Hazard, is that it's strictly in 2D, so that eliminates a lot of the hassle of having to direct Sonic exactly where he needs to be in order to land a hit or avoid obstacles. On a personal note, I remember burning through at least 25 or 30 lives trying to beat that level when I first got to it at 8 or 9 years old, and nothing rips apart the thrill of the final battle more than a final battle that is perceived as unwinnable for so long. Big Arms and the Death Egg Robot never gave me such trouble.

Unleashed is the worst, though. It doesn't help that it follows on the heels of a legitimately hard boss and the most goddamn draining level ever.

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Re: Sonic Lost World - Nintendo Exclusive

Post by FlashTHD »

Wombatwarlord777 wrote:Unleashed is the worst, though. It doesn't help that it follows on the heels of a legitimately hard boss and the most goddamn draining level ever.
Egg Dragoon isn't particularly hard, it's just pointlessly drawn out with that old "you can't hurt me until I leave my glowing green crotch in your reach" routine. But it wouldn't be a Werehog level if it didn't take forever, amirite?

Oh my god, though, that last boss in the HD version makes Sonic 06 a rosy experience by comparison. I died more cheap deaths to that bullshit than even Eggmanland and nearly game over'd. Was quality control more out to lunch than usual for the end bosses or what?

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