Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby P.P.A. » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:58 am

Ritz wrote:Is this actually a thing in Japan? Care to cite your sources? I mean, Nintendo had no qualms adding new content to their GBA Mario ports, and that alone sort of trounces this idea of games being immutable for fear of hurting someone's feelings! I'd think the notion of disrespect is much more of a concern to whiny fanchildren than it ever would be for any game developer.

 I recall reading this somewhere ages ago as an explanation for why there are so little Sonic game (and general) hacks coming from Japan, which usually outputs such immense masses of fan works. So, to use your words, this really is something only concerning “whiny fanchildren”, and less so developers.

This is purely commercial work these people are doing, and the ones who harbor any considerable attachment to their work would likely love to see more content added when no game is ever complete. Only about half of the stuff planned for most games ever makes the cut. Oshima's not going to care about Sega tampering with a game he produced nearly 20 years ago, he has his own shit to deal with.

This really is unacceptably, irrevocably retarded!

 Actually, Oshima mentioned some time ago in an interview that he still considers Sonic his dear child; no idea how much this applies to Sonic CD though, or if it only concerns Sonic as a character. Either way, there is a difference between adding additional content to a game—such as new levels or unlockable boni—and tampering with the most essential and characteristic mechanics of a game.

Neo wrote:Okay, you understand this. So the original physics are for you. The Sonic 2 physics are for the average Joe Idiot who doesn't know better and frowns upon the quirkier controls and ragequits because of it. The game then sells more copies, future budgets get higher and you're more likely to get HD rereleases of the original trilogy with online multiplayer and stereoscopic 3D.

Stop whining because you're getting all your greatest wishes and a bag of chips.


 Why this matters even if it's just optional, I shall try to use an analogy to explain:
 Imagine you have a girlfriend whom you dearly love (a bit exaggerated an analogy, but bear with me). You don't see each other for a while, but as you meet her again, you discover that she secretly underwent plastic surgery, getting a facelift, blowing up her breasts, and whatnot. She actually looks more attractive now.
 Theoretically, you should not care (except worry if she had/has self‐esteem issues), since, though her appearance has changed, beneath her skin she is the very same person you know and love. She's back with you, and that's all that matters. Indeed, you have reason to be even more happy, because she looks even better now (not that you ever had any issues with her appearance)!
 Except you are likely to feel betrayed. Not because her appearance changed, but because you feel that she did not understand why you loved her, why you loved her—and, by extension, she never understood you either. She went and underwent cosmetic surgery, to look more attractive, more appealing—but that is something you couldn't care less about, and something only others who have no feelings for her will appreciate.
 In theory, you should be happy, or just don't care. It would be no better—or even worse—of you if you actually took this as a reason to leave her and to break her heart over such a superficial issue. But, chances are you will continue to feel that little sting in your heart whenever you look at her, the little doubt in the back of your head, the realisation that you might not be as close as you had long thought you were.
 But a video game is not a person, it has no feelings, and it has no value in itself; and thus, I have no shame in simply dumping it instead of forcing myself to play it, knowing and feeling it to be something different, something to appeal to everyone, but nothing whose quirks and peculiarities, whose uniqueness I once learned to love. Just another commercial game.
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Yeah, this is all I got out of that.

Postby Delphine » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:29 am

P.P.A. wrote:unlockable boni
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Re: Yeah, this is all I got out of that.

Postby P.P.A. » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:30 pm

Delphine wrote:
P.P.A. wrote:unlockable boni

Unlockable boni are usually different from game‐changing corruptions of basic mechanics.
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby Neo » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:43 pm

Well, I'm sold. P.P.A, you sure are one sound, logical, sane human being.
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby P.P.A. » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:48 pm

How exactly logic matters on a purely emotional topic is beyond me. Objectively, this is a fantastic remake with all that one could possibly wish for, and more. Subjectively, it breaks my heart, because I perceive it to be in poor taste and while worthy in execution, unworthy of the original game in principle.
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby Delphine » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:37 pm

Honestly I don't really care, I was merely tickled at your use of 'boni'.
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby P.P.A. » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:28 pm

Delphine wrote:Honestly I don't really care, I was merely tickled at your use of 'boni'.

That's the plural we use in German. Is it incorrect in English?
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby Crazy Penguin » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:25 pm

I hope they find a way to eliminate the loading time during time travel. Ohshima wanted it to be a flash of light and an instantaneous change. Would that be too much to pull off?
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby Radrappy » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:41 pm

yeah, those load times were pretty awful now that you mention it. The sonic spinning to the top of the screen animation was cool though!
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby Rob-Bert » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:30 am

P.P.A. wrote:That's the plural we use in German. Is it incorrect in English?


It isn't even a word in the English language!
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby Locit » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:40 am

Rob-Bert wrote:
P.P.A. wrote:That's the plural we use in German. Is it incorrect in English?


It isn't even a word in the English language!

I does sound like a strange plural form of the word boner, though.
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby P.P.A. » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:15 am

Locit wrote:
Rob-Bert wrote:
P.P.A. wrote:That's the plural we use in German. Is it incorrect in English?


It isn't even a word in the English language!

I does sound like a strange plural form of the word boner, though.

What is your plural of “bonus” then?
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby G.Silver » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:18 am

Bonuses. Surprised?
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby Crowbar » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:24 pm

P.P.A. wrote:Why this matters even if it's just optional, I shall try to use an analogy to explain:
 Imagine you have a girlfriend whom you dearly love (a bit exaggerated an analogy, but bear with me). You don't see each other for a while, but as you meet her again, you discover that she secretly underwent plastic surgery, getting a facelift, blowing up her breasts, and whatnot. She actually looks more attractive now.
 Theoretically, you should not care (except worry if she had/has self‐esteem issues), since, though her appearance has changed, beneath her skin she is the very same person you know and love. She's back with you, and that's all that matters. Indeed, you have reason to be even more happy, because she looks even better now (not that you ever had any issues with her appearance)!
 Except you are likely to feel betrayed. Not because her appearance changed, but because you feel that she did not understand why you loved her, why you loved her—and, by extension, she never understood you either. She went and underwent cosmetic surgery, to look more attractive, more appealing—but that is something you couldn't care less about, and something only others who have no feelings for her will appreciate.
 In theory, you should be happy, or just don't care. It would be no better—or even worse—of you if you actually took this as a reason to leave her and to break her heart over such a superficial issue. But, chances are you will continue to feel that little sting in your heart whenever you look at her, the little doubt in the back of your head, the realisation that you might not be as close as you had long thought you were.
 But a video game is not a person, it has no feelings, and it has no value in itself; and thus, I have no shame in simply dumping it instead of forcing myself to play it, knowing and feeling it to be something different, something to appeal to everyone, but nothing whose quirks and peculiarities, whose uniqueness I once learned to love. Just another commercial game.


This analogy is so wrong it hurts.

1. They're not removing the original game. You can still play in on Mega CD, PC, or in Gems Collection. In your analogy, the original girlfriend is "replaced" irreversibly.
2. It's a goddamn option. That you say right off the bat "Why this matters even if it's just optional" only to not deal with that aspect at all in your analogy is laughable.

Also, you're acting like this has never happened before. Sonic Jam had the option for redesigned levels for crying out loud.
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby Radrappy » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:19 pm

I can appreciate your passion PPA given that this is probably your favorite game but it does strike me as an over reaction. The only thing I can think of that's similar to this is the ps2 remake of Nights they put out a few years ago. In there is the option to play with new and improved graphics that are nice but arguably betray the beautiful impressionistic style that working with the saturn's limitations yielded. Had that not been optional, yeah I probably would have been pissed. In a shocking twist though you had the option to switch between the new graphics, and the saturn ones on the fly. The two visuals even shared the same save file. There are plenty of things to get upset about in life but this aint one of them. Plus, you can always just pop in the original sonic cd if this optional shit bothers you too much.
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby Crazy Penguin » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:55 pm

I want to hear more about PPA's history with girlfriends.
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby Crisis » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:47 pm

I would compare it to "Greedo shot first". They're both examples of needless dicking around with something that worked perfectly fine to begin with. Yeah, you can always just go back and experience the original, but the fact that someone thought the change was improvement is kind of an affront in itself - even if the change was decided by the original owner(s) of the property.

Including Tails is less offensive because it's an addition, not a substitution. I expect it'll be kinda crap (think Knuckles in Sonic 2), but at least the underlying game will be preserved. Or was the physics engine change specifically to make adding Tails possible? If so then that's a little more justifiable (I'd still switch it off immediately though).
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby G.Silver » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:24 pm

Crisis wrote:I would compare it to "Greedo shot first". They're both examples of needless dicking around with something that worked perfectly fine to begin with. Yeah, you can always just go back and experience the original...


The real sticking point on this is that there is no DVD (or better) version of Star Wars that hasn't been dicked with. If you want it on anything but an ancient VHS (and most VHS copies you're likely to find are from the first time they started dicking in the 90s) format, you're getting Greedo Shot First, Han Stepped on Jabba's Tail, etc. There is an edition of the series that includes the original as an "extra" but it's supposedly not widescreen, non-anamorphic, and offensive to the serious collector. It sounds like that isn't the case here, where all the new changes are offered as extras, and the original game is still in there. (And Sonic CD being a digital product in the first place, the original version is never really going to go away.)
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby Radrappy » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:46 pm

Yeah but greedo shooting first isn't optional. If it was a whole lot less fans would be outraged I'd wager. Then again maybe not!
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby P.P.A. » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:23 am

Radrappy wrote:I can appreciate your passion PPA given that this is probably your favorite game but it does strike me as an over reaction. The only thing I can think of that's similar to this is the ps2 remake of Nights they put out a few years ago. In there is the option to play with new and improved graphics that are nice but arguably betray the beautiful impressionistic style that working with the saturn's limitations yielded. Had that not been optional, yeah I probably would have been pissed. In a shocking twist though you had the option to switch between the new graphics, and the saturn ones on the fly. The two visuals even shared the same save file. There are plenty of things to get upset about in life but this aint one of them. Plus, you can always just pop in the original sonic cd if this optional shit bothers you too much.

 Despite what it may seem, I'm not really passionately upset about this, or overly angry or hurt or whatever. I'm a bit disappointed and affronted by the lack of respect shown towards one of the few truly great Sonic games, but all it means is that I will simply not buy this port and stick to my Japanese Mega‐CD version. I'm really just trying to explain why I feel and act that way, and what I consider questionable with the approach taken by this port.

Crazy Penguin wrote:I want to hear more about PPA's history with girlfriends.

She tried a new haircut(!) once so I had to leave her!

This is a joke, in case it needs to be pointed out.
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby P.P.A. » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:31 am

(stupid edit limit)

 While trying to make something more appealing to a broader audience is of course nothing vile or unusual, I just don't like how an option was added to basically turn the game into something it isn't and isn't supposed to be just so that people who don't like Sonic CD (or, if I word it more arrogantly, are too shallow to realise its finer qualities) might play it anyway. I say if they don't like it, they simply don't need to play it, instead of the game being dumbed down and corrupted to a point where they can.
 Imagine a remade version of Wind Waker with the ocean travel removed. This was a common grievance of many players, but it was also an essential part of the game experience, and simply something that could be (but then was) only enjoyed if you approached it with the right mindset (experiencing it as a grand, vast adventure, instead of regarding it as pointless waste of time/overblown sidequest interrupting a supposed “main game” consisting only of dungeons and plot). More people might play it without complaining, but it would also lose its entire point and spirit. Even if it was optional—it's just an affront towards the essence of the game and the developers' intentions and vision.
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby Crisis » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:18 pm

Wind Waker is actually another good example. Imagine if Wind Waker (or any Zelda game for that matter) had a drop down menu that let you teleport to each dungeon as soon as you beat the tutorial level, letting you skip the story and the detailed overworld. How would players respond to that?

Well, we actually have a fair idea. World of Warcraft added a dungeon finder tool that pretty much did what I just described, and players loved it, despite the great big steaming dump it took all over the careful game design that had previously been in place. Now Blizzard is committed to maintaining an obviously broken mechanic, and it's probably not a coincidence that they started haemorrhaging subscribers a few months later.

This is sort of a tangent really, it doesn't have much to do with the new Sonic CD. But you guys are probably sick of hearing my opinion of it by now, so hopefully this helps to explain why I think that tinkering with the core mechanics of games, without appreciating their purpose, is a bad idea.

Players are great at identifying problems. "The physics feel off" is a perfectly valid problem. But players are (for the most part) really bad at coming up with solutions. But then why should they be good at it? They aren't professional game designers and it isn't their job. I guess someone out there really wants Sonic CD with its physics engine replaced. It may help sell units. It's still a really stupid idea that goes against the game's underlying philosophy, which is my only objection.
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby Neo » Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:33 pm

P.P.A. wrote:Imagine a remade version of Wind Waker with the ocean travel removed.

Nothing is being removed! It's a completely optional change! Jesus Christ!

Am I seriously the only one that's simply curious about how the game might play with the different controls and not calling it the greatest sin of mankind?
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby Locit » Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:07 pm

Neo wrote:
P.P.A. wrote:Imagine a remade version of Wind Waker with the ocean travel removed.

Nothing is being removed! It's a completely optional change! Jesus Christ!

Am I seriously the only one that's simply curious about how the game might play with the different controls and not calling it the greatest sin of mankind?

No, I am in the exact same boat. Just calm down and pretend it doesn't exist, like Sonic 06, guys. See? Everything's better again. Or as good as it can be in a world where optional features somehow ruin a game by association. And don't give me shit about how this is worse than that because they're 'ruining a classic' or whatever. That's not what is happening here. This is something you don't have to take advantage of if you're not interested. If we have to run with this stupid girlfriend metaphor, what you're doing is more like complaining about your girlfriend being bisexual. Except she's not even your girlfriend! You haven't bought the game yet, guys! Man, what a terrible metaphor.

And, I mean, that's just it: it's a game. That you don't have to buy. Remember? We all just need to calm down here.
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Re: Sega release trailer for.. Sonic CD? What?

Postby gr4yJ4Y » Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:24 pm

I'm curious about the new physics, Neo. I think in many games it would be change the way the game is changed and for those of you who know every nook and cranny of CD it would be extremely awkward to play with. But many people never got into Sonic CD because

1) it wasn't available on hardware they had
2) the physics felt archaic.

It's a great thing that you wanted to share with the world, but no one would listen. And then it changes a little and it's not the same thing you once loved. People are finally seeing the greatness that you saw long ago, but in this new version of it. It feels wrong.

I think I might buy this. Let's not forget what's great about this release:

-polished (hopefully)
-HD
-can be played on systems that are likely in easier reach than your Sega CD
-Japanese soundtrack (first time officially in the US)
-optional Sonic 2 physics
-able to play as Tails for additional replay value
-online leaderboards for time attack (hopefully)
-it's Sonic CD!

I've only experienced the game on Gamecube (bad d-pad) and pc (just a shoddy port), so I'm looking forward to this a little.
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