Archie Sonic Reboot

[Kogen]

Hey guys, we need a new spinoff QUICK. Maybe a pinball game? Sonic fits into that well!

Yeah, sure! Let us throw in those cartoon characters the kids like. Yeah, alright!


Or you could over think it and try to justify why X character exists in X universe.

[Arcade]

That reminds me, whatever happened to that guy who was making a comic based on Sonic CD and used to post the pages in this forum? Was he hired by Archie or something?

[G.Silver]

This comic?
http://el-hazard.deviantart.com/gallery/2705403

I don't know what he does, but this is his current DA page.
http://traphoot.deviantart.com/

I never see him online anymore, though now I see that is because he has a new AIM name and I neglected to update my friend list.

[Zeta]

After giving this some thought I have decided it does not make them canon. They only appear on a regular pinball machine played by Sonic himself, so at most, they "exist" in some capacity, but possibly only as fictional characters even within Sonic's own fictional world! Tails also appears in these stages, but he also appears at the end whether you rescue him or not, suggesting that these bonus stages are bonus only and the tiny characters rescued from the board do not actually correspond to any of Sonic's "real" friends.

Thinking about it, I honestly can't decide which set of characters is more annoying/entertaining. The extraneous Archie, Fleetway, X, or SonicTeam hangers-on supporting cast members. They all have their hits and misses.

Now seriously, I came to the conclusion there's no way to make the Sonic universe work in a stable, long-running comic series, or an animated series or whatever. The games' plots are barely enough for OVAs or one-shots and stuff.

I disagree. I think if you took a light-hearted wacky adventure with occasionally very brief serious spot moments you hit the tone right. See: One Piece, Dragonball (prior to adult Goku, anyways). Etc. etc.

[Kogen]

Something that bothers me about the Archie characters is how they are done in a different style. Archie puts clothes, accessories, and hair on their characters. Actual Sonic characters rarely wear anything unless female and their hair is always part of their normal body to the point where it is not even hair.

Archie characters really remind me of Deviant Art fan characters. Only a few SatAM ones like Sally follow the correct style. So even if official characters are just as awful, at least they do not artistically contrast with everything to the point where it looks like a mess by default.

[Zeta]

Big, Cream and Cheese, and Rouge beg to differ.

[Esrever]

For me, it's not the clothes so much as the designs in general. On the old TV show, they were drawn in completely different styles... like they artists only used Sonic's design begrudgingly and just drew everyone else the way they wanted to.

Heck, in the original comics, don't they even have a different number of fingers? (Five on the Sonic characters vs. four on the Archie characters?) You had poor Sonic, with giant hands and extraneous fingers and his tube arms, running around with these four-fingered weirdos with shoulders and elbows and hair! (AHH!)

I do think they've taken a lot of steps over at Archie to bring the two styles together, though. They play up the more Sonic-esque elements of the SatAM characters, like the ears and muzzles. Plus, they've added a lot of new characters that are kind of stylistic intermediaries between the two. (And so has SEGA, for that matter, with characters like Cream and Rouge.) It's definitely not as weird as it used to be.

[Isuka]

Yeah, if anything, Uekawa's stylization of the videogame characters merges better with the Archie ones, plus the the Archie artists' work towards that end.

I disagree. I think if you took a light-hearted wacky adventure with occasionally very brief serious spot moments you hit the tone right. See: One Piece, Dragonball (prior to adult Goku, anyways). Etc. etc.

Yeeaaah, maybe something like that could work, again definitely not for long (especially nowhere near Archie comics' 18 years run and counting), but it could do for a couple dozen issues.

[Radrappy]

Heck, in the original comics, don't they even have a different number of fingers?

My memory is hazy, but didn't they even try to explain that? There being a difference between 4 and 5 fingered mobians?

[Zeta]

Yeeaaah, maybe something like that could work, again definitely not for long (especially nowhere near Archie comics' 18 years run and counting), but it could do for a couple dozen issues.

Well the real problem with using the characters as a basis for the setting is the singular antagonist - Dr. Eggman.

You normally stretch out the length of a series with multiple antagonists. Even Mario has diverged from Bowser and Zelda from Ganon fairly regularly. With Sonic as a setting for the universe, there's only so many stories you can do about fighting Eggman. That's why almost every lengthly story using Sonic characters attempts to introduce new antagonists (what - Ixis Nagul or whatever he was called, Metarex, bunch of guys in Fleeyway) but none of them have been as iconic or well-put together as Eggman.

With Sonic, you invariably get stories with dozens and dozens of good guys and a rather singular antagonist, when the formula for a lengthly series is the exact opposite of that.

[Rob-Bert]

Well, arguably Metal Sonic could count as a standalone villain. At least, he did in Fleetway what with overthrowing Robotnick and forming the Brotherhood of Metallix. There's also other characters like Fang and Emerl (his true form), and the Battle Kukku Army those villains they used in the two storybook games and....eugh....Shadow.....and.....(huuuuurk)....Black Doom.....and......(blaaaaargh)....Mephiles........

....On second thought, I see what you mean.

[K2J]

Heck, in the original comics, don't they even have a different number of fingers?

My memory is hazy, but didn't they even try to explain that? There being a difference between 4 and 5 fingered mobians?

Just from fandom osmosis, I'm pretty sure they made that distinction for humanlike characters, but not for the furries.

[G.Silver]

You normally stretch out the length of a series with multiple antagonists. Even Mario has diverged from Bowser and Zelda from Ganon fairly regularly. With Sonic as a setting for the universe, there's only so many stories you can do about fighting Eggman. That's why almost every lengthly story using Sonic characters attempts to introduce new antagonists (what - Ixis Nagul or whatever he was called, Metarex, bunch of guys in Fleeyway) but none of them have been as iconic or well-put together as Eggman.

Really it's just a case of somehow doing this it well. Like you say, none of them are as iconic as Eggman, they just don't feel right, Sonic Team kind of shot the franchise in the foot when they set up the format of the first game the way they did--it was super cool, but also very inflexible. The other problem is that even if there are other enemies, like badniks, we know they're all complete pushovers. There's no "day to day" kind of conflict for Sonic, we don't know what his "normal" life is like, there isn't even really an effective way to gradually ramp the conflict up to Dr. Eggman in a way that's convincing with the tools that the base franchise provides. (Megaman has similar problems) Even when Gannon or Bowser is the villain, those worlds are fleshed out enough that you can believe that there are other problems for the heroes to deal with.

I think it would be totally possible to flesh out Sonic's world enough to do this, but it's never been done to my liking. The closest is, of course, the Sonic OAV, which feels more like a "day in the life" kind of Sonic situation, with another scheme from Eggman (and of course, to move the story forward, they still add more good characters no bad ones!) but can you really do that for very long? In some ways, I really think AoStH had the right idea, giving it a kind of Looney Toons treatment where Robotnik is always up to some ridiculous scheme and frequently changing up the theme and setting (ie, genre stereotypes and the like), but it misses the mark for more reasons than are worth even thinking about.

Those are directions I might take it if I were in charge, but you can't please everyone. Talking about what would make a good fleshed-out Sonic world is just as pointless as talking about how to make him work in 3D.

[Radrappy]

Talking about what would make a good fleshed-out Sonic world is just as pointless as talking about how to make him work in 3D.

Except that the latter is expected of a video game character while the former is just icing on the cake.

[Kogen]

Well, arguably Metal Sonic could count as a standalone villain. At least, he did in Fleetway what with overthrowing Robotnick and forming the Brotherhood of Metallix. There's also other characters like Fang and Emerl (his true form), and the Battle Kukku Army those villains they used in the two storybook games and....eugh....Shadow.....and.....(huuuuurk)....Black Doom.....and......(blaaaaargh)....Mephiles........

....On second thought, I see what you mean.

Tell us more about Robot Nick.

[CM August]

Talking about what would make a good fleshed-out Sonic world is just as pointless as talking about how to make him work in 3D.

Except that the latter is expected of a video game character while the former is just icing on the cake.

Yes, well, the problem is that comic books do not have that whole "gameplay" thing to redeem their narrative shortcomings. We're still talking about comic books right?

Though this could be applied to any non-game medium.

[Rob-Bert]

Tell us more about Robot Nick.

He's distantly related to Robotonic.

[G.Silver]

Talking about what would make a good fleshed-out Sonic world is just as pointless as talking about how to make him work in 3D.

Except that the latter is expected of a video game character while the former is just icing on the cake.

Emphasis on "talking about." What I truly meant by this was that although I find these topics terribly interesting, I need to stop myself before the post turns into the preliminary stages of a fanfic.

Though this could be applied to any non-game medium.

It applies to video games too, if they want to use traditional storytelling methods (and it seems that Sonic Team does).

[Radrappy]

I need to stop myself before the post turns into the preliminary stages of a fanfic.

Don't fight it.

[P.P.A.]

I think that in terms of villains and plots, the Sonic franchise has a lot of potential, but none of it was ever made use of.

Of course, Dr. Robotnik is just too iconic to be replaced. Any other villain will just not seem right. However, there are many options of other, independent factions interacting with him without challenging his position.
The games had Fang the Sniper, who—while by no means fit to be the main villain—could mix up many stories either by being that ineffective but all the more persistent mid-boss who amuses with his diverse failures, or by acting as a third party getting in the way of both Sonic and Dr. Robotnik by trying to secure the Chaos Emeralds for himself or selling valuable key items or technologies, forcing Sonic to go out of his way to retrieve them. Plus, he’s just cool.
Then there’s the Battle Kukku Army from Tails’s Adventure, which could provide one or two decent plots of them showing up and getting into a rivalry or an alliance with Robotnik, making Sonic take on both or using his wits to play out the two parties against each other. (Also, they seem much less out of place than G.U.N..)
But instead of their possibilities being explored, these characters were simply forgotten and all we get now is Sonic clones, clones of Sonic clones, and giant elemental monsters.

But even if you ignore everyone and everything but Sonic and Robotnik, there’s a lot of potential here if you are willing to see them not as static characters. Fleetway’s Sonic the Comic did a good job at making its different Robotnik arcs be interesting and the highlights of the series by gradually developing the characters. Sonic being a jerk and arrogant allowed for him to fail on occasions, and as a result his victories stood out more. Robotnik’s obsession and eventual descent into insanity was also brilliant, although perhaps a little too absolute to fit in the games or another longer-running franchise, although it would enable him to pursue very similar plans (allowing for familiar gameplay and structure) without it becoming stale or repetitive.

Lastly, although I do not want to go there, you could even write a serious story centred about political conspiracies—where does Robotnik get the funds for his modernist escapades? Who profits from his brute-force industrialisation of entire areas? Why is he never jailed for his crimes? Are they even considered crimes, or is Sonic fighting only the symptom of a corrupt and heartless system? You could even do a spy thriller with Rouge or the modern Chaotix! Industrial espionage! But yes, this is better left for non-canon comics or something.

[Malchik]

They could set Eggman aside and focus on a unique, independent villain for a one off game like Nintendo has with Mario. Bowser is iconic, but they sit him out every once and a while to keep the game fresh. Sega attempts this but they feel the need to shoehorn Eggman into the plot anyway. And when they try to include a unique villain, it is some lame dragon/demon monster that has no personally or even fit into the Sonic universe.

[Kogen]

Personally I have always enjoyed Witch Cart and I would like to see her as a main villain in a comic, game, or cartoon series (maybe even a film).

Her goals are very interesting. One day out of no where she decides to take over an unimportant island, then announces to no one in particular that she has done it. Upon doing so she goes to her new island, wheeling around on her cart aimlessly without any specific intention in mind. This of course all ended as Tails was very alarmed and decided to fly her away to an undisclosed location. But what if she came back to do it all again?

[P.P.A.]

Perhaps she broke out of her old people’s home and got lost, so Tails—being the good boy he is—showed respect for the elderly and carried the senile and confused old woman back to her caretakers.

[FlashTHD]

Not too far off! :p

The old hag calls herself the great Witchcart, claims the island for her own, and threatens to turn anyone who says otherwise into crystal with her magic. This senile old lady's caretaker is nowhere to be seen, so Tails has to take matters into his own hands.

[Rob-Bert]

I actually kind of like PPA's ideas up there. If the entire Sonic series ever got a complete continuity reboot, that's the kind of sensibilities I'd want to see.

For the record, here's a potential list of game-related Sonic villains who aren't Robotnik:

-Metal Sonic
-Battle Kukku Army
-Fang the Sniper
-Bean the Dynamite (his allegiance is never given, but I can see him being a bad guy)
-Bark the Polar Bear (same as above, probably even team him up with Bean)
-Witchcart (OK, maybe not)
-Emerl/The Gizoid (I like Sonic Battle, and having this guy act as his own entity could be pretty interesting if it wound up not being a copy of Metal Sonic's schtick)
-Black Doom (...No)
-Eggman Nega (His only problem is simply being Robotnik from another dimension)
-Mephiles (He probably wouldn't have been so bad if he weren't a painful fanfic-esque Shadow knockoff)
-Erazor (While SatSR sawked, I like genies enough to list this guy here)
-The Black Knight (Eh, SatBK sucked and so did he)
-Merlina (Now her being the real villain of SatBK was something I liked, but they handled it really poorly. Would be nice to have a youthful female Sonic villain.)
-Captain Whisker (A pirate bad guy is probably the best idea on this list. However, they kinda dropped the ball by making him yet another Robonik lookalike and an actual robot to boot. With a name like that you'd think he'd be a walrus or something. Imagine, a big powerful Sonic villain that isn't a human!)

I guess there's also Ix from Sonic Chronicles but he's basically a combined expy of Ixus Naugus and Dr.Finitevus from the Archie comics. I'd also prefer not to count all the giant monster bosses as legitimate villains except for maybe Chaos since he actually starts out with an ordinary body.