On the subject of over-porting, I'm expecting Sega will release a 'Sonic Super Mega Drive Mega-Pak' for both the 3DS and NGP.
Sonic Jam for 29.99 to celebrate Sonic's 20th. It will just be the Saturn game exactly with no edits. It will also come in a blue box as a bold statement of fun.
G.Silver wrote:At the risk of saying something nice about you, what I actually meant by that was that I appreciate your hatred of the device (and possibly your use of hyperbole, I dunno).
I'm not saying there weren't things to like about Majora's Mask (or Twilight Princess). But I think there are reasons why they're the two 3D Zeldas I couldn't bring myself to finish. If I had played them before OoT, for instance, I probably would have.
You finished Wind Waker? That's the one Zelda game I've ever played that I didn't bother to do 100%. The sailing was so monotonous and generally speaking, the dungeon design wasn't nearly as clever or well thought-out as the others. And I hate the art direction to this day.
Crisis wrote:I'm not saying there weren't things to like about Majora's Mask (or Twilight Princess). But I think there are reasons why they're the two 3D Zeldas I couldn't bring myself to finish. If I had played them before OoT, for instance, I probably would have.
There's a reason I edited out TP, though; it is a tired, if serviceable, retread of OoT. MM has things other Zelda's do not have (most other games, for that matter), but I guess its problem is that those things aren't as readily accessible. You need to get intimate with Termina and its denizens and not worry about the endgame so much.
And by "assists" I meant assets.
Green Gibbon! wrote: And I hate the art direction to this day.
Majora's Mask was fantastic, tying with Ocarina of Time as the best Zelda games. I'll have to agree with Gibbon about Wind Waker; there was just too much about it that was either annoying or simply tepid, and to add insult to injury that series got more spinoffs than any other. Thank god they've (seemingly) put it to rest now.
Green Gibbon! wrote:You finished Wind Waker? That's the one Zelda game I've ever played that I didn't bother to do 100%. The sailing was so monotonous and generally speaking, the dungeon design wasn't nearly as clever or well thought-out as the others. And I hate the art direction to this day.
I played through it alongside Ocarina of Time (via the Collector's Edition preorder bonus) and came to the exact opposite conclusion. Well, almost; what was lost in the dungeon design was gained in the overworld and characters. I think the reason why I don't see eye to eye with Zelda fans is the dungeons, since I see them as cockblocks to exploration and storytelling, while everyone else seems to live to solve them.
Liking the art style is a pretty huge deal, though. If you hate it then I can definitely see the overworld being a giant pain in the ass. I still prefer clunky boat controls over clunky horse controls, and at least the ocean is a relatively innovative location compared to, say, another bloody field.
The shameless Wind Waker spin-offs can kiss my ass, for what it's worth.
I've never completed a 3D Zelda game (though I have gotten very close a few times with various games) and I still consider Link's Awakening to be the peak of the series. It didn't have too much extraneous bullshit to distract you and the chain of fetch trades was tied into the main quest, making it compulsory instead of merely a cheap game lengthener.
Claiming to play Zelda for the "storytelling" is inane as every game is the exact same story rehashed with slight variations, complete with requisite Nintendo Mute Protagonist® and a fucking animal sage or other garrulous annoyance to carry the shallow narrative.
The series in general doesn't really interest me any more, as it's become far too formulaic, and unfortunately the entries that mix up the formula the most are the shitty DS games with the stupid gimmicks.
Segaholic2 wrote:extraneous bullshit to distract you
What are you referring to specifically with this? It seems you're talking about what most people would call "content".
and the chain of fetch trades was tied into the main quest, making it compulsory instead of merely a cheap game lengthener.
I don't really get this statement. It's like saying it'd be good if a Final Fantasy forced you to beat the normally optional bosses before you could fight the last boss (e.g. in FFVII, having to beat Ruby and Emerald Weapon before you could take on Sephiroth). I also don't really understand how you can say "cheap game lengthener" in reference to the optional trade sequence rather than the compulsory one.
Claiming to play Zelda for the "storytelling" is inane as every game is the exact same story rehashed with slight variations, complete with requisite Nintendo Mute Protagonist® and a fucking animal sage or other garrulous annoyance to carry the shallow narrative.
There's more to "storytelling" than simply the sequence of events that constitute the plot. Emphasis on "telling" rather than "story". I can understand if you feel that OoT's storytelling wasn't any great leap from LttP's, but MM's absolutely was, and it was something that couldn't be done the same way in any other medium.
Last edited by Crowbar on Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Green Gibbon! wrote:You finished Wind Waker? That's the one Zelda game I've ever played that I didn't bother to do 100%. The sailing was so monotonous and generally speaking, the dungeon design wasn't nearly as clever or well thought-out as the others.
Wind Waker is one of the Zelda game I have 100%'d (the only other one being Majora's Mask). That's mostly because it was one of the easiest, with some of the best, but fewest side quests. They give you a map with an island in every square of its grid, so you don't have to mindlessly wonder around searching for some trinket in some obscure area of the world.
The dungeons in Wind Waker were the worst in the series (A Link to the Past comes in second), not for what's there, but for what's not there. You could pretty much tell that there were supposed to be more in there, but the game was rushed. My main problem wasn't that it slugged on, but that it was too short. I just wanted more of it.
As someone who grew up never playing Zelda, they're really hard to get into now. I've gotten as far as collecting tri pieces in WW, Beaten a few bosses in OoT and am searching for mirror pieces in TP. I doubt I'll ever finish any of them because there's really nothing compelling me to. The gameplay isn't particularly engaging or fun and the world, as charming as it is, doesn't offer much in the way of character motivations or stakes(with the exception of your sister/girlfriend getting kidnapped in the first act of the game. Which, by the way always ends up playing second fiddle to the same old boring triforce shit that no body cares about) For what it's worth, the music is consistently amazing.
My first Zelda was Link's Awakening, and my first 3D Zelda was Wind Waker. LA had great gameplay and a surprisingly compelling plot, and WW had great storytelling and a fantastic art style. I was hoping to get the same depth of character that I saw in WW's Ganon from Twilight Princess and was really disappointed. I was also hoping early on that TP would end with the gods flooding Hyrule when things got too messed up for even Link to salvage, because that would have been really fucking cool.
And that covers my experience with the franchi--oh fuck the first DS game, that's right. Bland and repetitive. Felt like a poor man's LA.
Segaholic2 wrote:Claiming to play Zelda for the "storytelling" is inane as every game is the exact same story rehashed with slight variations, complete with requisite Nintendo Mute Protagonist® and a fucking animal sage or other garrulous annoyance to carry the shallow narrative.
I play Zelda to have fun. The storytelling is often the main obstacle to this endeavour. I personally find playing dungeons for the puzzles inane, because solving puzzles just for the privilege of solving more puzzles makes me feel a bit like a pigeon in a box.
And generally speaking, a lot of time and effort is invested into making each Zelda world a compelling and interesting one, most notably Wind Waker. The 3D Zeldas like to put an emphasis on Act 1 (Kokiri Forest, Windfall Island, Ordon Village to a lesser extent) and are a great example of merging tutorial gameplay into a narrative. So why do we give the rest of the game a free pass as long as they pack on the dungeon content? You can't complain about the series being the same game remade over and over and then in the same breath say that the story's irrelevant. The first Zelda was just a series of dungeons connected by a larger overworld, if you ignore the story and the atmosphere then that's all Zelda can ever be.
Twilight Princess is the only Zelda game I ever finished. I also played Link to the Past, Ocarina, Wind Waker, and Phantom Hourglass, but with all of those, I got bored or distracted and wound up jumping ship part way through.
I couldn't for the life of me tell you why Twilight Princess kept me engaged when the others didn't... I know the variations between all the titles are pretty slight. Maybe it had something to do with how TP was dungeon-heavy and "relatively" light on the stuff inbetween, especially in the second half. Or maybe it was how it generally got more interesting as it went along, with the most boring parts of the game at the beginning... unlike games like Wind Waker or Phantom Hourglass, where the tedium of sailing or the temple of the ocean king gradually builds up the longer you play it. Maybe it was because I played it before I played Ocarina, so it seemed less familar. Or maybe it was because I just liked Midna!
But I finished it, so I guess that makes it my favourite Zelda game.
My first Zelda was Oracle of Ages (I never finished it) ad my first 3D one was Wind Waker. Which, alongside Majora’s Mask, I still consider my favourite.
I never actually fully finished OoT and neither did I grow fond of it. While I realise that it was probably revolutionary at the time of its release and set the standards for everything else to come, it also lacked the certain magic that made its two successors come to life.
It is not too difficult to make a game that lets the player live through various emotions during certain events, but it is utmost brilliance to get the player to experience, to feel a game’s world just by spending time in it. Majora’s Mask manages just this—every element works together to create not punctual sensations but a dense, multi-layered atmosphere that completely absorbs the player and that allows him or her to feel it regardless of what—if anything—is currently happening in it. The deep and memorable characters and their individual and collective fates, the things you are carrying, the world around you… As soon as you immerse yourself in it, you feel part of it. Even when just riding through the steppe or exploring a dungeon you remember those whom you met, the things that happened and will always happen again until you avert the world’s fate, and sense the general air of decay and hopelessness. It’s an amazing achievement which of all games I have played only Knights in the Nightmare and Shadow of the Colossus managed as well (albeit in very different ways each), and it is compared to this density that OoT feels a bit stretched and, while a good game, not something that takes the medium beyond mere entertainment.
In the case of Wind Waker I did not overly like it the first time I played it, but when I started my New Game + at some point, I revised my opinion. The long stretches of sailing across the ocean—described as boring by many—I found to convey greatly a feeling of adventure and freedom, especially as you stray off your course and pause to explore the islands you come across. Some of the locations are really interesting and fun to explore, and yet you don’t lose sight of the (pretty well-written [probably owing to Ganondorf actually having a personality]) story. I think the art style (which is brilliant anyway) fits the feeling this game gives the player—the child-like curiosity and excitement of setting out to an adventure, exploring a wide world, constantly broadening one’s horizon and discovering amazing new things along the way. Which is what I believe the game successfully tries to convey. Link remaining a child throughout the entire game for the first time in the Zelda franchise (I consider LttP Link to be a teenager of young adult) should have given you a hint!
First Zelda game I've ever played was... the first one, back when I was about 10. It was cool and everything, but I sucked at video games back then and didn't have the adventuring or the English skills to make out what was I supposed to do next after a couple dungeons.
Then I tried A Link to The Past and didn't like it. From time to time I feel like I wanna join the cool kids and try so subject myself into restarting Ocarina of Time and see it to the end, but it never manages to hook me during the first couple hours. Interestingly, these two get ported and rereleased on pretty much every single Nintendo platform that can handle them, so I assume they didn't age particularly badly, did they?
My first and only real Zelda was Link's Awakening, which is in my personal gaming top ten.
Currently playing through the original on Virtual Console. I know the combination for the forest maze is available all over the web now, but I don't understand how the player is supposed to get it by themselves..
Oh jesus, I just reread my last post and Segaholic's that I was replying to and realised that he was talking about Link's Awakening and not A Link to the Past as I thought he was. For some reason I always get those two mixed up.
Link's Awakening is one I haven't really played and LttP is one that I have played and consider overrated. My points in that post are still basically as I would intend, but I think I came across as a little more acidic than I would have otherwise, so apologies.
I will add that it's interesting to see that people here seem to like LttP less than I would consider the norm. I feel like I usually see it touted as the unarguable pinnacle of the series, but for me it just didn't really have anything in particular going for it.
I didn't get around to Link to the Past until I'd spent time with all the other main games. It was surprising to see how much Ocarina of Time took from it (themes, story, etc.) and I could tell it did some amazing things for its time. However, it doesn't have as strong a place in the series as many claim it to have because Ocarina of Time and Link's Awakening outdo all of its strengths. Ocarina of Time re-presents a similar story from a more immersive third dimension, removing the world from the less abstract 2D. Link's Awakening provides better level design in both the overworld and the dungeons.
Maybe the best place for Link to the Past in the series is as a semi-deluxe remake-ish version of the NES original. They both had pretty open overworlds near the beginning, while most of the other games made you go through dungeons one by one. I've seen people get to all the dungeons in Link to the Past without ever beating one of them.
I am going to go with the general critical opinion that every new Zelda game is a shitty remake of the N64 game and that the series has not been good since Zelda 64.
