Daedalus must be proud.

Speak your mind, or lack thereof. There may occasionally be on-topic discussions.
User avatar
Senbei
Posts: 800
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:45 pm
Now Playing: Art school...
Location: Art school!
Contact:

Post by Senbei »

Worth mentioning is that the Japanese subtitle writer for the LotR films chose to use katakana for most of the characters' names, even those that had been translated into kanji in the book. She did this because she though the archaic-looking kanji wouldn't be understood or be appealing to the general audience; essentially, a "pure" translation would be more marketable.

User avatar
Green Gibbon!
BUTT CHEESE
Posts: 4648
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 11:39 am
Now Playing: Bit Trip Complete
Location: A far eastern land across the sea
Contact:

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Green Gibbon! »

So Shenmue is not designed to appeal to "any culture"? Lord of the Rings is not designed to appeal to "any culture"? It doesn't matter what the setting or target audience is.

Changing puns and references is refusing to let the audience in. That's doing the game a disservice and the players as well. Rather than acknowledge where the work originates, all traces are brushed under the rug. Why? So it can be more easily marketed? How is that not an insult?

Of course whoever isn't from the culture where a work originates is at a disadvantage. There is no way to change that (indeed, games suffer far less from this than prose or poetry), but it is an opportunity to learn something. If you can be bothered!

User avatar
Crowbar
Posts: 680
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:40 pm

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Crowbar »

Changing puns and references is refusing to let the audience in.
How can you possibly even think this?

A joke is not funny if you have to have it explained to you. If you leave a joke in a form that makes no sense to somebody reading it then you're basically forbidding them to actually enjoy the work. You are denying them immersion. You also keep bringing up the intentions of the author, but here's some news: somebody writing jokes wants their audience to laugh at them regardless of where they came from. Not to "learn" something. No entertainer who's worth his salt is this arrogant or pretentious. Hell, you can STILL have that angle without killing any possibility of immersion by providing a note in the back of the book saying what the original language was, but leaving it as it was in the actual text is just wholly stupid.

Do you think leaving Japanese honorifics in an English translation is acceptable too?

User avatar
Green Gibbon!
BUTT CHEESE
Posts: 4648
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 11:39 am
Now Playing: Bit Trip Complete
Location: A far eastern land across the sea
Contact:

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Green Gibbon! »

A joke isn't funny if it's explained, but if you're talking about something that's very language or culture-specific, it's also impossible to translate. There are 2 options: you can explain the joke or you can write a new one. Since the "new" one has to fit the context of the situation, the results are usually forced and completely obvious. That's not funny, either.

Seriously, you're not sacrificing "immersion" by preserving the culture of the original work. If anything, it makes it more interesting. If having to wrap your head around a foreign gag really upsets your mental balance that much, don't play foreign games.

User avatar
P.P.A.
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:36 am
Now Playing: Flying Princess - Inter Breed -
Mount & Blade: Warband
Location: Rhineland
Contact:

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by P.P.A. »

In a way, I am inclined to agree with Green Gibbon!. In particular I remember one of Don Rosa's Scrooge McDuck (who is called "Dagobert Duck" German, which results in a complete disregard for his Scottish origin and the relation to that famous Christmas tale (which is unknown here, though)) comics, revolving around a revisit of the bizarre city where everyone and everything is square that first appeared in a Carl Barks story. The last panel ends in Donald making a comment about Scrooge's and his rival's failure to reap profit from the city, which in German is completely forgettable, pointless, and can be skipped directly. When I however read some of the commentary by Don Rosa included in the book, it mentioned how the English version had a pun on "fair and square", which is apparently a recurring phase of Scrooge's in the English comics and common English proverb. It explained both to the German audience, and reading this explanation might not have been 'funny' but it did make me appreciate the comic a bit more than the lousy German replacement of the pun which did not even try to be amusing or witty.
So, yes, I would rather the speech bubble had been left blank with a note at the bottom explaining its original content than this pathetic idle chatter having taken its place. Even if this was not immediately funny it would have been an enrichment of the experience or reading the comic, it would have made the reader more appreciative of it, and it would have taught one something small about the English language.

I also disapprove of for example Atlus changing certain names and other bits in the translations of the Dept. Heaven Episodes games, Riviera (for example Ecthel -> Ein or Lyuri -> Lina), Yggdra Union (the spell Jihad -> Crusade, other things), or Knights in the Nightmare (nice German names being mutilated due to space issues not present with katakana or being downright replaced with (admittedly not entirely inappropriate) Norse names), none of which add anything to the games and which are simply an unnecessary alteration of the original text making me as the fanboy customer feel a little cheated.

On the other hand, I have also seen cases where a translation is just far too amusing and brilliant to be shunned for deviating from the source material. Nintendo games in the early 90s are a wonderful example, since the German translation staff of Nintendo of Europe just went around throwing puns, jokes, and silliness wherever they went. The main character's home town in Secret of Evermore for example was renamed to Großostheim, the city where NoE's headquarters are located.
Or, as the most extreme examples, the original translation of Zelda: Link's Awakening has those little blobs you can shower with magic powder shout hippie slogans ("!STOP THE WAR" GIVE PEACE" (in English)), make various sexual references playing on their phallic shape ("NEVER WITHOUT CONDOM", "Give me your juice, I'll give you mine..."), or imply their dealing of drugs ("Any worries, troubles, or problems?").
Even more impressively, the translators went as far as to not only alter the dialogue but also some graphics to turn a quest to retrieve a mermaid's pearl necklace into one to retrieve her bikini top. Complete with her calling Link a pervert for diving in front of her, and the narration including a couple of onomatopoeias illustrating Link's appreciation of the piece of underwear.
Alas all of these changes were reversed in the Game Boy Color version and respectively replaced with dull vague hints about occurrences in the game and the original pearl necklace quest filled with idle chatter. Either way, while certainly neither correct nor intended it would be a lie to claim that I do not think of such changes as simply awesome. Maybe this really has to be decided upon on a case-to-case basis, also considering the overall competence and effect of the translation.

User avatar
Shadow Hog
Posts: 1776
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:21 am
Location: Location: Location:

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Shadow Hog »

P.P.A. wrote:Or, as the most extreme examples, the original translation of Zelda: Link's Awakening has those little blobs you can shower with magic powder shout hippie slogans ("!STOP THE WAR" GIVE PEACE" (in English)), make various sexual references playing on their phallic shape ("NEVER WITHOUT CONDOM", "Give me your juice, I'll give you mine..."), or imply their dealing of drugs ("Any worries, troubles, or problems?").
He just says "Hey mon!" in English, actually...
P.P.A. wrote:Even more impressively, the translators went as far as to not only alter the dialogue but also some graphics to turn a quest to retrieve a mermaid's pearl necklace into one to retrieve her bikini top. Complete with her calling Link a pervert for diving in front of her, and the narration including a couple of onomatopoeias illustrating Link's appreciation of the piece of underwear.
You have it all backwards. The original Japanese game had you find her missing top, which is also why she was hiding in the water while she lacked it. The US version changed it to a necklace, in line with Nintendo's draconian censorship policies.

That's hardly the only instance, either. Another similar situation would be the hippo in Animal Village, who arbitrarily sits down when you get close to her for no good reason, telling you to back off. In the original Japanese version, she has a large blanket around her, and if you are far enough away from her that she stands up, you can see her cleavage, explaining that one away too.

Man, Nintendo of Japan are a bunch of pervs, aren't they?

But I actually like translations that make an effort to take the original joke and make it work in the original language, instead of directly translating it and having it fall completely flat. Woolseyisms, I think they're called (at least on TVTropes); where, if you think too hard about it, the translator takes the original work and inserts some very dramatic changes into it, which in any other situation would be reprehensible - but in actuality, the changes just work, and largely keep the feel and intent of the original author intact. Named after Ted Woolsey, who did an awful lot of those for Square's SNES games. eg: FF6, Tina -> Terra. Why? Because "Tina" was chosen as it sounded exotic to the Japanese ear, whereas it'd be a generic-as-all-get-out name in the US, so he chose something similarly exotic. Admittedly it's a change you either love or hate, but I'm pretty okay with that one.

Last I checked, the Ace Attorney series is full of those, too. A good example would be the detective from Case 2 of Trials and Tribulations. Originally his name was "Aiga Hoshiidake", which is a riff on "ai ga hoshii dake", or "I just want love". The English translation for it? "Luke Atmey". Not completely exact, but the general idea of the name is intact (he wants attention/love), and yet the pun is now in English. This is something I'm entirely in support of, but apparently something GG! is entirely against, and I'm completely confused as to why.

User avatar
P.P.A.
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:36 am
Now Playing: Flying Princess - Inter Breed -
Mount & Blade: Warband
Location: Rhineland
Contact:

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by P.P.A. »

Shadow Hog wrote:
P.P.A. wrote:Or, as the most extreme examples, the original translation of Zelda: Link's Awakening has those little blobs you can shower with magic powder shout hippie slogans ("!STOP THE WAR" GIVE PEACE" (in English)), make various sexual references playing on their phallic shape ("NEVER WITHOUT CONDOM", "Give me your juice, I'll give you mine..."), or imply their dealing of drugs ("Any worries, troubles, or problems?").
He just says "Hey mon!" in English, actually...
Well, I meant the original German translation. Except for the "!STOP THE WAR" GIVE PEACE" which is in English even in that version I translated all of the above from German. Screenshots, by the way: http://www.schnittberichte.com/schnittb ... hp?ID=3918
P.P.A. wrote:Even more impressively, the translators went as far as to not only alter the dialogue but also some graphics to turn a quest to retrieve a mermaid's pearl necklace into one to retrieve her bikini top. Complete with her calling Link a pervert for diving in front of her, and the narration including a couple of onomatopoeias illustrating Link's appreciation of the piece of underwear.
You have it all backwards. The original Japanese game had you find her missing top, which is also why she was hiding in the water while she lacked it. The US version changed it to a necklace, in line with Nintendo's draconian censorship policies.

That's hardly the only instance, either. Another similar situation would be the hippo in Animal Village, who arbitrarily sits down when you get close to her for no good reason, telling you to back off. In the original Japanese version, she has a large blanket around her, and if you are far enough away from her that she stands up, you can see her cleavage, explaining that one away too.
Oh. Then NoE is just awesome for leaving this intact; both the bikini top and the hippo with the towel, by the way. Though the writing is nevertheless extremely charming and amusing in a very specific German Nintendo Translations From the First Half of the 90s-way.

Rob-Bert
Posts: 849
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:52 pm
Location: Here, not there.
Contact:

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Rob-Bert »

This is something I'm entirely in support of, but apparently something GG! is entirely against, and I'm completely confused as to why.
He must like Japanese culture that much.

User avatar
Green Gibbon!
BUTT CHEESE
Posts: 4648
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 11:39 am
Now Playing: Bit Trip Complete
Location: A far eastern land across the sea
Contact:

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Green Gibbon! »

I like culture that much. I'd much rather know the original joke in the original context than have a "similar" joke imposed by a translator. Whether or not the joke captures the same "spirit" (sometimes it does, but more often it doesn't and can't) is irrelevant. It is a different joke.

I don't understand why you would not want this except, because, well "Sorry, but I'm too lazy to think."

User avatar
Delphine
Horrid, Pmpous Wench
Posts: 4720
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 1:05 pm
Now Playing: DOVAHKIIN
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Delphine »

But American/European/White culture is just so much better. Why bother learning other cultures?

User avatar
Zeta
Posts: 4444
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 11:06 am
Contact:

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Zeta »

Humor is based on timing. Any joke that you have to explain due to cultural differences is destroyed because that upsets the timing of the humor.

Rob-Bert
Posts: 849
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:52 pm
Location: Here, not there.
Contact:

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Rob-Bert »

Green Gibbon! wrote:I don't understand why you would not want this except, because, well "Sorry, but I'm too lazy to think."
Did it ever occur to you that not everybody in the entire world is automatically well-versed in every single culture imaginable right off the bat and that understanding certain cultural quirks and nuances requires a little more than mere thinking?

User avatar
Green Gibbon!
BUTT CHEESE
Posts: 4648
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 11:39 am
Now Playing: Bit Trip Complete
Location: A far eastern land across the sea
Contact:

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Green Gibbon! »

Certainly! Of course it also takes great physical strength. And speed. You have to be in peak form, physically and mentally, to achieve it. You actually need a doctorate in most cases.

User avatar
Crisis
Posts: 531
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:15 pm

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Crisis »

I feel I should point out that, translation or no translation, people are free to learn the language and look up the original text themselves, if they really want to. The whole point of a translation is that they don't have to.

User avatar
Green Gibbon!
BUTT CHEESE
Posts: 4648
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 11:39 am
Now Playing: Bit Trip Complete
Location: A far eastern land across the sea
Contact:

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Green Gibbon! »

Again, there's a big difference between translation and alteration. A good translation makes something culturally unique or language-specific accessible without turning it into something else.

User avatar
Esrever
Drano Master
Posts: 2981
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 2:26 am
Contact:

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Esrever »

I generally agree with GG. Obviously there has to be room for a little leeway, but I like it when translators keep the original content as intact as possible, even when it's a joke or pun or something else that doesn't make sense in English. For one thing, 99% of the time, the new joke isn't funny either. It sticks out like a sore thumb, is obviously not the original joke, and just makes you want to know what the original joke was anyway!

MAYBE IT'S A COWTERPIE!

I never bought the old "a joke isn't funny if you have to explain it" line, anyway. You guys are really telling me you have never, ever heard a joke you didn't get, but that became retroactively funny once you understood the reference? C'moooooon.

But ok... say you absolutely, positively do not want to learn anything... then just read the original joke, let it sail over your head and move on. If you really feel like you absolutely must hear a completely unrelated substitute gag that was made up by someone who had nothing to do with the original story, you can email me and I'll tell you a knock knock joke.

User avatar
Crisis
Posts: 531
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:15 pm

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Crisis »

Green Gibbon! wrote:A good translation makes something culturally unique or language-specific accessible without turning it into something else.
Believe it!

User avatar
Cuckooguy
LEGEND
Posts: 761
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 12:27 am
Now Playing: Sonic Generations 3DS, Asura's Wrath
Location: Southern California
Contact:

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Cuckooguy »

Sometimes, I wonder about how something should be translated when I play the Japanese version of the game. For example, in Mario Galaxy, when Luigi gets a start and stops getting them and tells Mario he's stops doing them, it's because it's such a "neck stretcher", which I assume means something like "big hassle". Then when I played the Japanese version of Skies of Arcadia, Eternal Arcadia, there were a lot of idioms that you just couldn't translate without making it feel odd sounding in English. For example, right before Vyse fights Galcian, Vyse says he's accomplished a lot of things and that he's bitten everyone, and the only thing he hasn't bitten and intends to bite is Galcian. Also, Fina says "Minna..." like, a hella lot. In English, one would translate this as "Everyone..." or "You guys...", but obviously, this does not feel natural when said in English. For example, when Crescent Isle was decimated by Ramirez, and Fina is all depressed in the planning room because her childhood friend just tried to kill her, and then looks down at how everyone is working so hard to rebuild the base, the last thing she says during that cutscene in Japanese is "Minna...", and in the English version, she says something like "Maybe my life is better now than it ever was before."

Anyway, I have just come to accept the fact that yea, when companies translate something, they alter it to make it more marketable or make it sound more natural. Something like, say, Bowser=>Koopa seems to have been changed for marketing purposes or changed just for the sake of being changed, which is a shame, but I have come to accept the fact that if you want to play a game or watch a movie in its original language and meanings, you're better off just learning said language, as the option is available to you if you labor to learn it. There are just so many nuances that even just translating something is already altering it, and it's not like games are designed with footnotes to look up to tell you that "Chiko" means Star Child (changed to Luma in the English versions of Mario Galaxy). Actually, I have no idea how "chi" can be pronounced as 星 (can be pronounced hoshi or sei). I just remember the "furigana" on top of the word "チコ" was "星子", which makes someone even trying to research what it means an even bigger mystery.

User avatar
G.Silver
Drano Master
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sat May 22, 2004 12:58 am
Now Playing: Radiant Silvergun, Wario World
Location: warshington
Contact:

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by G.Silver »

http://kotaku.com/5728660/the-air-battl ... s-uprising

So who is really making Kid Icarus Uprising? Pit's posture, wing position, and use of what appears to be a Beam Sword make him really resemble a mythological version of Virtual On's Temjin, to say nothing of all the dash attacks (both ranged and close combat), and an evade that might actually be a Q-Step. The announcer in these videos mentions Space Harrier by name, but it looks more like Panzer Dragoon, and they're both Sega games anyway. Then when the boss appears, it's hard to shake the resemblance to the encounter with giant-sized Kachua in Sin & Punishment. Nintendo could be making this themselves, but they've teamed up with Sega and Treasure in the past before, sooo.... Well, I really think it's a team up!

User avatar
Dr. BUGMAN
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:18 am
Now Playing: Poverty

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

I'm still trying to wrap my head around why this is a Kid Icarus game (let's pretend we live in a world where legacy and brand name recognition amount to a hill of beans). There isn't any sort of evolution leading up to this, mechanic or aesthetic-wise. It's not even that beloved a franchise, either; most of the target audience only knows about it through Smash Bros.

This could be a sequel to Solar Striker and no-one would be the wiser. The ship would transform into a mech for on-foot sections, and wouldn't that be the raddest.

Don't get me wrong; I really don't feel strongly about it. It's just mind-boggling how intellectually bankrupt the video game industry became in such a short amount of time. Hollywood had a good seventy years before it went to crap.

User avatar
Radrappy
Posts: 1329
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 10:53 pm
Now Playing: MvC3, Vanquish, Skies of Arcadia Legends
Contact:

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Radrappy »

Dr. BUGMAN wrote: most of the target audience only knows about it through Smash Bros.
Which is enough. Certainly worked for fire emblem. Its a little confusing how much buzz the game has right now. It looks like Sin and Punishment for babies. The free roaming segments look twitchy and have camera issues. It looks nice if not a bit vapid in terms of architecture and set pieces. In conclusion I would pick Ocarina of Time 3DS over this any day.

User avatar
Dr. BUGMAN
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:18 am
Now Playing: Poverty

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

I'm not claiming it won't work, or isn't smart marketing on Nintendo's part. It's like those CGI movies that keep getting cranked out, like Transformers, that are marketed based on peer-induced nostalgia rather than to the people who were fans of the property because they saw merit in it.

Fire Emblem, in its defense, didn't re-imagine itself in the wake of its newfound relevance. While I don't care for Fire Emblem, I do respect it.

User avatar
Crisis
Posts: 531
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:15 pm

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Crisis »

Does anyone else just think the game just looks ugly? Pit's model is OK aside from being ripped straight from Smash Bros. with a few alterations. But the environments and enemies look like they've come from a pretty N64 game, with the exception of the Gorgon and the dragon. I'm getting a bit of a Starfox Adventuers vibe from this - familiar characters being awkwardly shoehorned into an unfamiliar game.

User avatar
Zeta
Posts: 4444
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 11:06 am
Contact:

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Zeta »

As I see it, Kid Icarus Uprising is a Star Fox game that ditched the brand name of Star Fox after Adventures, Assault, and Command poisoned it.

It's got the same sort of gameplay (rail shooter and some twitchy ground sections), same sort of applications of that gameplay - etc.

Frankly, there's not much you could do with the "traditional" Kid Icarus gameplay to evolve it that hasn't already been done by Metroid, God of War, or NyxQuest - at least for now.

User avatar
Dr. BUGMAN
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:18 am
Now Playing: Poverty

Re: Daedalus must be proud.

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

Grecian themes are gameplay?

Post Reply