Sonic Critique

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Delphine
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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by Delphine »

GENIUS

SOMEONE GIVE THIS BOY A GENIUS TITLE, I CAN'T SEEM TO DO IT ANYMORE

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Forza Johnman
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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by Forza Johnman »

As far Sonic and 3D controls are concerned, what they could do with PS3/360 games is that you click down on the analogue stick and Sonic would crouch. Not sure if the Wii's analogue stick doubles as a button. That's if they want to go back to one button game play. Personally I wouldn't mind a control scheme where:
Button - On ground - In Mid Air
A/Cross - Jump - Homing Attack
B/Circle - Crouch/Spin Dash/Spin Attack - Bounce Attack/Stomp
X/Square - Light Dash unt only Light Dash
Y/Triangle - Turn Super Sonic? Nothing else they have added has really worked. (not really a fan of the Sonic Rush style boost.)

As far other characters go, I'm one of these mad people who don't really mind 9/10 of them. But if they fix Sonic first then they could work on the others. Maybe.

As for stages, I would kinda like if they were a mix of normal stages and the Adventure fields so you can explore and talk to people if you want or not. Just blast through the level.

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Shadow Hog
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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by Shadow Hog »

Mm, personally I'd map "duck" to a trigger primarily. That way I could have a truly one-face-button-based gameplay. It's pretty simple, really. Let me summarize it for you.

A,B,X,Y: Jump
R: Duck
L: Focus camera directly behind Sonic

I don't really even care what the other two triggers do; all of Sonic's moves can easily be accomplished with those two buttons. Duck and jump? Spin-dash. Duck while running? Spin attack. Duck while jumping? Ground pound, I guess. Jump while jumping? Either that splitsecond shield from Sonic 3 or a Homing Attack. Do there really NEED to be any other moves to a Sonic game?

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by (No Imagination) »

Yeah, this (Shadow Hog's 3D, to avoid quoting).

The main reason why Sonic's supporting cast gets to act more interesting in 3D is because they don't get to move in a straight line for most of the time, or at least they're not being rewarded for doing it as much.

... I think Sonic's gameplay is supposed to be about the level design, not 1000 cool moves your main man can do...that kind of stuff should be a Tony Hawk game or something.

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Post by Isuka »

Also, I'm trying to find the reason behind Adventure 2's somersault attack. Maybe they thought that some stage layouts where too small and the player should have a way to attack enemies without putting themselves at the risk of falling off a bottomless pit... but then again, that's what the homing attack was for in the first Adventure, right? (And make that a design idea; really, really huge stages, no more narrow corridors)

Anyways, I still like the light dash, and I'm not sure if there should be a dedicated button for it that could also be used for other actions à la Adventure 2, or if it'd be a better idea to assign it to, say, the jump button and make it context-sensitive. The latter shouldn't be a big deal in almost any other kind of game, but here we are discussing a move performed on a thin line of collectibles in some of the fastest platforming action games ever, and that kinda spells control disaster to me.

Yeah, I think I like the three buttons/ two face buttons+one trigger layout better in a 3D Sonic game.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by G.Silver »

Also, I'm trying to find the reason behind Adventure 2's somersault attack
I think they were trying to increase the realism, in keeping with his more realistic spinning in a jump (as opposed to just "balling up"), they wanted a similar move for the ground. They also incorportated the somersault into a move to get you past specific obstacles by rolling under them, but the old spin won't get you through them. There's no excuse for this (there are plenty of ways to work around it) but changing the size of an object's collision box can add unexpected complexity to a game and it was probably easier to create one fixed-length state that "unlocks" those obstacles than it was to allow Sonic to just roll under them naturally (which would hypothetically allow Sonic to roll into places they don't want him, or unroll in low-ceiling areas and get him stuck or killed like in the 2D Sonics). I just know in my work with a friend who programs, he absolutely hates changing collision box sizes for that reason, so that may have been a factor.

Obviously whatever they were trying to do was completely misguided, but those are the only reasons I can think of.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by Kogen »

Another idea I had was to make Sonic move slower when in a ball.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by Dash »

All I really remember about the somersault is doing that cool flip jump in the middle of it. I always wanted to get some extra points for linking that to a rail or something.
Shadow Hog wrote:Mm, personally I'd map "duck" to a trigger primarily. That way I could have a truly one-face-button-based gameplay. It's pretty simple, really. Let me summarize it for you.

A,B,X,Y: Jump
R: Duck
L: Focus camera directly behind Sonic

I don't really even care what the other two triggers do; all of Sonic's moves can easily be accomplished with those two buttons. Duck and jump? Spin-dash. Duck while running? Spin attack. Duck while jumping? Ground pound, I guess. Jump while jumping? Either that splitsecond shield from Sonic 3 or a Homing Attack. Do there really NEED to be any other moves to a Sonic game?
This should definitely be the place to start for any new 3D sonic game. It's sort of what I was getting at, but you made it much simpler. You could get so much out of just this, and it would be just like the 2D gameplay in 3D essentially. A breath of fresh air.

However, I can't help but suggest that context button. Ever since SA2 I've had the burning desire to be able to link multiple acrobatic moves on my way to the end of the stage, taking a cue from NiGHTS. I propose a button you could hit to do mid-air tricks, possibly wall-run at will, and otherwise just help you to do cool things like in the Sonic CD intro without having it all pre-scripted or automatic. A one-button QTE, mostly(if not wholly) optional for the average playthrough. Part of Sonic is also looking cool traversing the stage, and allowing a function to make you look even cooler if you have skill can't be a terrible thing.

It could be great if done right, and simple, but considering they'd probably lose sight of the other concept in pursuing it, maybe save it for a sequel.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by Shadow Hog »

Personally, I'd rather avoid a context-sensitive button at all costs. The few times I've seen it implemented, it's been incredibly clumsy. Sonic Adventure 2, for instance: no, I wanted to roll into a ball and gain momentum, not start somersaulting and immediately lose it. No, I wanted to Light Dash over a pit, not Bounce Attack right into it. No, I wanted to pet the Chao, not throttle it into a wall by hitting it. As I recall, I've seen the same issues even with better games (Metal Gear Solid comes to mind, although its instances were a bit rarer), and even pulling it off perfectly can still lead to some issues (Kingdom Hearts 2's context button works perfectly, but shows exactly how NOT to use it - the thing gets used so often to pull cool stunts that half the time it feels like "press Triangle to win", an entirely hands-off affair).

Instead, I'd opt for finding a way to make such "cool acrobatics" merely part of the usual momentum-based gameplay. Running on walls, for instance, is pretty easy to do - build up momentum, find a suitable ramp that leads you onto the wall, and there you go. Kind of like Adventure, but I'd tweak the way you fall off the wall if you lose momentum - there it seemed like so much as a subtle bump would detatch you and send you falling, whereas here you should stick to the wall until your downward velocity greatly outweighs your forward velocity. Mid-air tricks are overrated - they're a shallow way to gain momentum (pretty much out of your ass, at that) or quickly fill up the Boost Gauge (which doesn't even apply to this would-be game). Jumping from rock pillar to rock pillar like in the Sonic CD intro is simple enough to do - implement a basic wall jump, like Mighty had.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by FlashTHD »

Shadow Hog wrote:Personally, I'd rather avoid a context-sensitive button at all costs. The few times I've seen it implemented, it's been incredibly clumsy. Sonic Adventure 2, for instance: no, I wanted to roll into a ball and gain momentum, not start somersaulting and immediately lose it. No, I wanted to Light Dash over a pit, not Bounce Attack right into it. No, I wanted to pet the Chao, not throttle it into a wall by hitting it.
The Shadow game had the sense to move the context button off of B and over to X so B could be freed up for attacking. X also did the spindash (when stopped) and slide (when running) but luckily you didn't use those quite as much. Context button != clumsy and retarded; Not thinking your game design and button mapping straight = clumsy and retarded.

Four jump buttons and a miscellaneous action? I'll pass.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by j-man »

Sonic doesn't need an action button the only action he needs to do is jump jesus fucking christttttt

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Zeta
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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by Zeta »

Him and every other platformer made since 1982.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

I know, right. Super Mario Bros. 2, Yoshi's Island, the entire Wario Land series, Ristar, Drill Dozer, etc gained nothing from having action buttons.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by Zeta »

I know. I really hate how you shoot in Mega Man. They need to take that out and just let you jump. That purifies the gameplay and keeps the design streamlined.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by Esrever »

After we give Sonic an arm cannon and the ability to throw vegetables, can we give him some spells, too? Like, press C to bring up your spell menu, and then you select from it in real time.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by Dash »

Yeah, the concept does lose more functional use the more I think about it. Ah well, just an idea. Like I said, those other things(rolling and jumping controls) are spot-on, and it's sort of amazing that they didn't try that the first time 'round.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by (No Imagination) »

I know. I really hate how you shoot in Mega Man. They need to take that out and just let you jump. That purifies the gameplay and keeps the design streamlined.
It's thinking like this that got them to remove the slide from MM9.

Sonic should totally be hurt when jumping, though, because having it any other way would make him too broken for Smash Brothers...to compensate, he'd have the following input:
button 1: jump
button 2: jump a little less, and slower
button 3: activate turbo boost, but only when having 0 rings
button 1+2: trick move...activate for max points, hurts you unless you're uncurled, in mid-air, and exactly above spikes - any spikes
button 2+3: stop and taunt with your finger
button 1+3: stop & shoot waves of energy from hands
button 1+2+3: spin horizontally with arms stretched out
(charge) b, f, button 1: SONIC BOOM
d, d, f, d: kill all Buzzbombers on screen, hurts you when there aren't any around
f, d, f, button 1: punch with hands
f, d, f, button 2: kick with legs
f, d, f, button 3: attempt both at once and fail in a comedic fashion
d, db, u, df, f , fu, u, button 2+3, button 1: sonic wind
d, f, df, d, df, u, f, df, button 1+2, button 3: spin jump (hurts enemy)
d, d, d, d, d, df, db, d, d, db, f, d, button 2: spin dash
(mid-air)
d: drop like a rock
d, f: drop like a rock, but leap forward the second before you land
d, f, d: bounce from ground when you land
f, button 1: Time Stop (uses 150 rings)
f, button 1: unroll when applicable and home into nearest enemy (when less than 150 rings)
f, df, f, button 1: insta-shield
f, d, f, button 1: cancel spin-jump (when applicable)
f, df, f, d, f, df, button 1: fake homing jump (miss every enemy by a narrow margin)
f, f, df, f, d, f, df, button 1: homing jump
df, f, button 1: shoot balls
df, f, button 2: shoot spiny balls
df, f, button 3: shoot hairy balls
df, f, button 1+2: shoot blue balls
df, f, button 1+3: pretend to shoot balls
df, f, button 2+3: cancel pretending to shoot balls into a mid-air SONIC BOOM

See what I mean? Fun and simple, yet down to what platformers are all about: crazy moves.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by P.P.A. »

(No Imagination) wrote:
I know. I really hate how you shoot in Mega Man. They need to take that out and just let you jump. That purifies the gameplay and keeps the design streamlined.
It's thinking like this that got them to remove the slide from MM9.

Sonic should totally be hurt when jumping, though, because having it any other way would make him too broken for Smash Brothers...to compensate, he'd have the following input:
button 1: jump
button 2: jump a little less, and slower
button 3: activate turbo boost, but only when having 0 rings
button 1+2: trick move...activate for max points, hurts you unless you're uncurled, in mid-air, and exactly above spikes - any spikes
button 2+3: stop and taunt with your finger
button 1+3: stop & shoot waves of energy from hands
button 1+2+3: spin horizontally with arms stretched out
(charge) b, f, button 1: SONIC BOOM
d, d, f, d: kill all Buzzbombers on screen, hurts you when there aren't any around
f, d, f, button 1: punch with hands
f, d, f, button 2: kick with legs
f, d, f, button 3: attempt both at once and fail in a comedic fashion
d, db, u, df, f , fu, u, button 2+3, button 1: sonic wind
d, f, df, d, df, u, f, df, button 1+2, button 3: spin jump (hurts enemy)
d, d, d, d, d, df, db, d, d, db, f, d, button 2: spin dash
(mid-air)
d: drop like a rock
d, f: drop like a rock, but leap forward the second before you land
d, f, d: bounce from ground when you land
f, button 1: Time Stop (uses 150 rings)
f, button 1: unroll when applicable and home into nearest enemy (when less than 150 rings)
f, df, f, button 1: insta-shield
f, d, f, button 1: cancel spin-jump (when applicable)
f, df, f, d, f, df, button 1: fake homing jump (miss every enemy by a narrow margin)
f, f, df, f, d, f, df, button 1: homing jump
df, f, button 1: shoot balls
df, f, button 2: shoot spiny balls
df, f, button 3: shoot hairy balls
df, f, button 1+2: shoot blue balls
df, f, button 1+3: pretend to shoot balls
df, f, button 2+3: cancel pretending to shoot balls into a mid-air SONIC BOOM

See what I mean? Fun and simple, yet down to what platformers are all about: crazy moves.
You forgot a few moves:

d, df, f, button 1+3: walk forward
u, ub, b, button 1, 2, f, b, button 3: start moving into the other direction
(charge) d & button 2, f, df, d, db, b, ub, button 3: spin attack/curl up into a ball (you can still take damage though unless you do this move while in Burst mode)
f, f, d, button 2+3, ub, uf, hold button 1, u, d, Start, release button 1: Burst mode (makes you invulnerable to enemy contact during spin attacks, makes rings non-solid)

hold button 2, hold d, button 1, button 1, release d, button 3 & uf, b, b, f, db, button 2, u, hold button 1+3, df, hold f, button 1 on P2 controller, d, uf, df, b, release button 3 on P1 controller, b, button 2, release f on P1 controller, db on P1 controller, hold button 3 on P2 controller, release button 1 on P1 controller, [d, db, b, ub, u, f, uf, df, button 2+3 on P1 controller] + [ f, df, ub, uf, d, b, db, button 1 on P2 controller], release button 3 on P2 controller: collect a ring :ring:

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by P.P.A. »

You also need to download the Oiling DLC packet for 500 MSP/5€ before springs actually catapult you into the air, naturally.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by (No Imagination) »

P.P.A. wrote:u, ub, b, button 1, 2, f, b, button 3: start moving into the other direction
I'm sorry, but this is completely redundant - why would you want to turn around? This is Sonic we're talking about, not Mario.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by Popcorn »

Zeta wrote:I know. I really hate how you shoot in Mega Man. They need to take that out and just let you jump. That purifies the gameplay and keeps the design streamlined.
Look, you fish-fondling fruitcake, the entire point of Sonic is the depth of play it produces from very simple controls. The rolling-physics system is where all the subtlety and complexity you're looking for is (a physics system Mario, Yoshi and Mega Man all lack). The minute you start bolting on special moves is the minute you start bogging down the system with unecessary and superficial bollocks like the SA2 roll Silv is so right to decry. They don't contribute to, or evolve naturally from, the universal physics system that 2D Sonic depends on and 3D Sonic badly lacks.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by Dr. BUGMAN »

I, too, believe Sonic benefits from simplicity. I was just calling out that bullshit post.

What's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander is what I was getting at.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by Crazy Penguin »

The light speed dash is one of the strangest additions to the regular gameplay of the series. It's completely uninteractive.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by G.Silver »

Popcorn wrote:Look, you fish-fondling fruitcake
This is going to be the highlight of my day. I should have visited later.

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Re: Sonic Critique

Post by Delphine »

I was basically going to post the exact same thing as Silv.

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