Sonic the Hedgehog IN THE THIRD DIMENSION

[Xyton]

So it seems that many people on this board (including me) find Sonic Adventure to be Sega's best attempt at this whole "make a Sonic game in 3D" thing. Why is that? How would you all feel about it if it came out today (Same gameplay but better graphics, etc.)? Alternatively, if Sega hired you to design the next game, would SA1 be the game you used as a starting point? SA1 and SA2?

I was playing though it again recently, and what really got me thinking about it was the camera: Sometimes it's fine and sometimes it makes it impossible for you to see where you're going. I don't remember being too frustrated with it at the time (and it didn't kill the fun for me now), but it sure did make me die every now and again. Beyond that, the gameplay isn't perfect but isn't panful, and the level design is pretty decent -- I think it finds a good balance between zoom and careful platforming. Some of the stages have interesting hooks, and some of the non-Sonic characters were actually fun to play. It was a good first attempt at 3D, and because it was a first attempt, I think some of its flaws can be overlooked. Still, I wonder how much of the fondness for it at this point is warm, fuzzy nostalgia. Thoughts?

[Dasher]

Also the music was pretty nice too, not to mention the voices and blah,blah,blah.

To me SA1 felt like part of the classics but in 3d, while SA2 is moving on into I dunno crap? but SA2 was ok and I enjoyed it and I dare to say SA1 and SA2 were the last Sonic games. What we have now is a barfbag with Sonic written on it.

The controls, the balanced speed and platforming, the nice and balanced artwork, the story, the level design (being followed by a whale while the docks behind you being destroyed, being sucked up by a tornado while nice platforming inside it only to come out to one of the best speedways ever in a sonic game, Everything about this game was magical and every level had its appeal. Eggman was also portrayed as an actual menace here and well this game was badass, truly a classic on my book and it felt straight out of the classics atmosphere. Oshimas last major game and it shows, I'm still sad he had to leave as it indeed showed that if the creator leaves the creation withers and begins to die at least spiritually.

[CM August]

Also the last game I found Eggman's range of technology/baddies aesthetically appealing. Or appealing at all.

[Dasher]

Yes theres just so much this game did right its mind blowing to think they would scrap these features in later games, I guess its was not their taste and Oshima and other factors were the last thread holding the Sonic spirit together, once gone the Sonic atmosphere of times past was gone, forever/

Also the jump spin attack had its classic sound and Tails and Knuckles still had their spin attacks, while Sonic who was the only one with the spin dash helped in various ways not just speed and a fancy attack. Having Sonic with the spindash while the others didn't felt right in this game as you didn't have fancy shields sonic could exploit like in Sonic 3.

[Crowbar]

How would you all feel about it if it came out today (Same gameplay but better graphics, etc.)?

They already did. It was called Sonic Adventure DX and it was received pretty poorly.
Sonic Adventure was great for its time but had lots of flaws, and for that reason has aged badly.

[(No Imagination)]

Sonic Adventure is more awesome than any other 3D Sonic game simply because it's got Big fishing really slowly and annoying the crap out of all the omg gotta go faster faster teens that plague his fandom today. Go Big!

...the storyline and the stages are also pretty good, but that's beside the point.

It was called Sonic Adventure DX and it was received pretty poorly.

For one, it was garbage because Sonic's 3D model is too shiny. >_>

[(No Imagination)]

Forgot to mention this. For me, the Dreamcast SA looks better, with the 30 frame rate and all; maybe, just maybe it's nostalgia kicking in, but whenever I re-play that, even after 8 years and what, I'm still getting a vibe of playing an action movie (a cheap B grade 80s action movie, because this is Sonic the freaking Hedgehog after all), and it fucking rocks ... at the same time, SADX and SA2 with their perfect Phong shading and solid 60fps rates feel artificial, plastic and as a result much less immersive - they look like a saturday morning 3d cartoon. And much less involved.

(By the way, Real Men play No Save. )

Also, Sonic model with textured skin = win.

[CM August]

^ Huh?

Anyway. In all seriousness, was there a single graphical tweak in DX that anyone found favorable? Besides sharper texture resolution and improved draw distance, I can't really think of a thing.

[(No Imagination)]

They gave Sonic fingers, but as a result hands became way too big. And they didn't fix those ugly oval shadows, which is a crime.

So, yeah, the draw distance, I guess. By the way, is the texture resolution indeed higher, or has it just gone through a filter and stuff? I mean - can you now read the stuff written on alert signs at Sky Deck, clearly? They downgraded several textures from SA2 to SA2:Battle when porting the game (check out those egyptian wall things for comparison if you care) ... I'm just wondering if they bothered to do it in reverse when porting SA.

[Dr. BUGMAN]

i agree the lower poly characters are for more aesthetically pleasing, because they're more consistent with enemies and NPCs and even environments.

Anyways, as much as it still hurts being suckered into paying full-price for Secret Rings, it still feels the closest to a fully realized 3D Sonic, Arabian theme, level system, menus, shitty controls, etc, notwithstanding.

[Samface]

In all seriousness, was there a single graphical tweak in DX that anyone found favorable?

I seem to recall that the water was a bit more...shimmery. I liked that.

[Crisis]

A big part of what made Sonic Adventure so much fun was its imagination. Every single level introduced the player to a new idea or puzzle that was unique to that level and was applied differently to every character that visited it. Even within levels, there was enough variation to keep you motivated to discover what was around the corner. It was a joy to play through.

And it was remarkably good at preventing the player from getting bored. It let you take all 6 characters at your own pace, so whenever you felt like switching it up you could do so with total freedom, and this was tied into the story such that you would get an increasingly broad understanding of the plot by mixing up who you played as. SA2 cut away this freedom and forced you to take a linear path that often had me disappointed, forcing me to play a game I didn't want, just to get to the game I did, and having far fewer game modes in general resulting in less variety. The treasure hunting stages became old particularly quickly, to the point where I would dread seeing them.

If SA was released today with the appropriate graphical upgrades and bug fixes, I think it would be extremely well received. This is a Sonic fanbase that has been starved of any kind of quality main franchise entry for nearly a decade, and it's also a time where re-imagining classics is the newest fad.

[G.Silver]

I don't think SA Director's Cut is what would be meant by "improved graphics." It's funny because I was about to say even the Wii should have been able to do something better than that, and in fact, even the GC should have--they just improved the things that would be easiest to implement without changing anything else. Sonic Adventure done up with the full modern treatment would be a real sight, I think, because the environments really were something else. I would think that with the "full modern treatment," just the nature of the engines powering the games and collective programming experience in 3D that's been developed over time, a lot of the collision problems would be taken care of.

The real problem is that the first SA is extremely loose in its controls, Sonic goes so fast and the levels are (comparatively) and small that spamming the dash button gets you through so fast, it's hard for me not to look at in retrospect and think that it's kind of broken and sloppy. Even Sky Deck, probably the high point of the game for me, is such a weird, quirky mishmash of platform elements--it's rather amazing (even today), but it does not feel well implemented. That could be because of collision issues in a lot of places, but it kind of highlights for me the problem with SA, which they "fixed" in SA2. If SA is sloppy, SA2 is solid, but if SA is flexible, SA2 is extremely rigid. Neither one is really the ideal 3D Sonic game and they're both strong in different ways. I thought for sure that the next game (before Heroes) would be the one to take elements from both and make the perfect hybrid, instead it just careened off the "solid/rigid" side of the scale.

Maybe it's just that I have already played it to death, but the idea of a remake (no matter how good) of the first SA doesn't hold much appeal for me. I think it would be a good place to start from (especially taking into account what might have been learned from games since) but I'd much rather have something new.

[Kogen]

So it seems that many people on this board (including me) find Sonic Adventure to be Sega's best attempt at this whole "make a Sonic game in 3D" thing. Why is that?

Because everyone involved quit after.

How would you all feel about it if it came out today (Same gameplay but better graphics, etc.)?

Why is Sonic having a seizure when I tried to walk up some stairs?

Alternatively, if Sega hired you to design the next game, would SA1 be the game you used as a starting point? SA1 and SA2?

No, I would start at Black Knight.

For the game, it would be on DS. Essentially you play it like the old Sonic DS demo where you rub the screen quickly with rhythm. It will give you that feeling that you are doing something when you are not, like a toddler holding a controller while the attraction gameplay of a pre-2000 game starts, making the little shite think it is doing something.

You play as Sonic chasing Robotnik with the Master Emerald, as in Sonic Chaos. All of the cast of characters follows you on this epic chase, from Silver the Hedgehog to Blaze the Cat. But after about a minute wondering why you are rubbing a screen like a retard instead of pushing buttons, you burst off a cliff as Eggman escapes over it. Luckily for Sonic, Tails swoops in and saves him, while everyone else falls horrifically down the cliff, with the ground laced in giant spikes (think Mortal Kombat). After that, the game just pretends it is Sonic 3 and Knuckles and you are at the Marble Zone boss. At this point I quit Sonic Team and watch them make Sonic 4. The only character remembered is Knuckles, who lost his life protecting the green rock that he loved. The rest can simply be referred to as lemmings.

[Neo]

Maybe it's just that I have already played it to death, but the idea of a remake (no matter how good) of the first SA doesn't hold much appeal for me. I think it would be a good place to start from (especially taking into account what might have been learned from games since) but I'd much rather have something new.

I share this sentiment completely, but a part of me tells me that there's a much higher chance they'd botch up a brand new project than a remake of an old but good game.

[cjmcray]

I actually thought SA1 was the weaker of the two games.

Sure it had better graphics than SA2, was longer, had better music and adventure fields, but SA2 had better gameplay. I loved grinding through City Escape and outrunning the truck. The levels were a bit harder than SA1, and had more enemies. The shooting levels were improved, there were no fishing levels, Shadow hadn't yet become the irritating mess of a character he is now, Eggman was the coolest he'd ever been, there were also many more features to unlock/download and the dialogue in the cutscenes featured minimal cheese, compared to SA1's almost unwatchable cutscenes.

SA1 was still a great game, but I preferred SA2.

[Dasher]

Yeah as I said SA2 was the last good game IMO, it also had more replay value due to so many mini games and stuff.

[G.Silver]

a part of me tells me that there's a much higher chance they'd botch up a brand new project than a remake of an old but good game.

See, that same part of me tells me that the remake would not even live up to the standards I'd hold it to (certainly to the extent that I'd even want to bother playing it), so I'd rather take a chance on something new not sucking than screwing up something I already like.

[Crazy Penguin]

I'm going to second everything G Silver said. Sonic Adventure wasn't very functional, the controls were loose, the camera was problematic if you didn't do what the game wanted you to and there were a lot of collision detection problems and the like. Sonic Adventure 2 fixed most of those, with the notable exception of the camera not liking you going backwards to retrace your steps (particularly frustrating on the Hidden Chao missions). The level design however, was fantastic, if not from a gameplay perspective then at least from an architectural perspective. From what I can tell of the other 3D Sonic games (not played some of the more recent ones) you essentially have a race track with a start and a finish and the same scenery throughout. Every level in Sonic Adventure was built with semi-realistic structure in mind, with several changes in scenery for Sonic whilst other characters (particularly Knuckles) had more chance to explore small sections more leisurely. So Twinkle Park had the dodgems ride and the castle, Casinopolis had the sewers and the pinball machines and the shower rooms, and the pirate ships at the top, Speed Highway had the highways then the lower town area, Emerald Coast started outside a hotel with beach chairs and whatnot then later had the foresty section, Red Mountain had the outside canyons and the creepy lava prisons inside and so on. It helped that all of the stages were then connected to a hub world that implemented them all in a naturalistic way, without a cheap "portal" system. Almost makes me yearn for a Metroid/Castlevania style Sonic!

So basically, taking the design principles of Sonic Adventure (perhaps making it more non-linear as well) with controls and a scoring system similar to Sonic Adventure 2 would probably be the right direction to take. I'd still like to see someone try to return to the idea of Sonic as a "pinball with legs", which admittedly would be difficult in 3D. The homing attack, dash panels, pre-scripted loops and even pre-scripted springs are all crutches that should have been abandoned long ago.

Sonic Adventure 2 was simultaneously a step up and a step down from its predecessor. The subsequent entries in the series appear to have favoured new central gameplay gimmicks over trying to get the right balance and fixes for what's already there. It's like Sega's just putting jam on burnt toast, and it's usually store brand jam at that.

[CM August]

Actually, about the scoring system. What's the general consensus when it comes to the score resetting to zero apon dying? I remember a few here complaining about it. Should there be a better means or is it fine as-is?

[Radrappy]

Sonic handles terribly in SA2. It's hard to even keep him going in a straight line.

The level design however, was fantastic, if not from a gameplay perspective then at least from an architectural perspective. From what I can tell of the other 3D Sonic games (not played some of the more recent ones) you essentially have a race track with a start and a finish and the same scenery throughout. Every level in Sonic Adventure was built with semi-realistic structure in mind, with several changes in scenery for Sonic whilst other characters (particularly Knuckles) had more chance to explore small sections more leisurely. So Twinkle Park had the dodgems ride and the castle, Casinopolis had the sewers and the pinball machines and the shower rooms, and the pirate ships at the top, Speed Highway had the highways then the lower town area, Emerald Coast started outside a hotel with beach chairs and whatnot then later had the foresty section, Red Mountain had the outside canyons and the creepy lava prisons inside and so on. It helped that all of the stages were then connected to a hub world that implemented them all in a naturalistic way, without a cheap "portal" system. Almost makes me yearn for a Metroid/Castlevania style Sonic!

This is what keeps SA1 superior to SA2 despite all its technical hitches. Remember the first time you entered the final segment of speed highway? The changes in atmosphere, music, and design were amazing. SA2 is has none of these moments. There's no sense of wonder, no celebration of each zone's unique setting. SA2's levels, with the exception of city escape, were limited to floating straight-aways suspended over bottomless pits that at the end of the day, all felt the damn same. goddamn awful.


You could take showers in casinopolis. YOU COULD TAKE SHOWERS.

[Dr. BUGMAN]

Actually, about the scoring system. What's the general consensus when it comes to the score resetting to zero apon dying? I remember a few here complaining about it. Should there be a better means or is it fine as-is?

What worked for Nights doesn't necessarily work for every Sonic Team game, including Sonic. I say fucking ditch 'em. It'd be like having Jungle Beat's score system added to Galaxy, which I cannot see being a good thing.

[Neo]

SA2's levels, with the exception of city escape, were limited to floating straight-aways suspended over bottomless pits that at the end of the day, all felt the damn same. goddamn awful.

On the other hand, SA2 had 32 levels. Adventure had 11.

You give some, you lose some.

[Crazy Penguin]

The grading system is pretty silly, but I very much like the idea of a the game keeping a Top 5 record board not only for fastest times, but also highest score, most rings etc. Sonic games, when stripped down to the basic Sonicy parts, are inherently short and fast, so replay value is very important. Giving each aspect of gameplay its own scoreboard encourages players to try playing the game in different ways. Mission modes are similar, but once an objective has been cleared there's no incentive to do it again. Placing emphasis on high scores makes for a more open-ended experience.

I don't think it's something that should be limited to individual stages either. Why not keep track of high scores/best times/most rings for an uninterrupted play-through with no continues? Why not go further and have a "One Life, no 1-Ups" mode?

SA2's levels, with the exception of city escape, were limited to floating straight-aways suspended over bottomless pits that at the end of the day, all felt the damn same. goddamn awful.

On the other hand, SA2 had 32 levels. Adventure had 11.

You give some, you lose some.

The difference with SA2 is that the shooting and treasure hunting games had their own named stages rather than sharing Sonic's, but they were essentially just repeats. Just how many desert and ARK levels were there? There were even repeats within the same gameplay styles, most notably Green Forest/White Jungle and Final Rush/Final Chase. The only particularly great stages, aesthetically speaking, were City Escape and Pumpkin Hill (the former wasn't the most inspired theme in the world, but it was a natural fit for Sonic that hadn't been done before, whilst the latter is one of the most kooky and distinctive locales in the series).

[Cuckooguy]

I think Sonic Adventure was a very good game and I preferred it over Sonic Adventure 2. I see people talking about how its aged rather badly and I haven't replayed it recently enough to make that kind of opinion, but Sonic Adventure felt like an enormous amount of love was put into every fiber of its level design. Take Emerald Coast, for example. Though its theme is, well, a coast of a beach, it doesn't recycle environmental assets too often within its same levels. First you're next to a huge hotel building with beach tables nearby, then you're running over bridges, run through a loop and a coast, then run around a mountain, then you're running over a bridge and a giant whale is trying to eat you, then you run by a lighthouse, then a long stretch under a waterfall, some platforming above a lagoon, yadda yadda yadda. 1/4 into a level looks and feels a bit different from 3/4 into a level, so the game's always trying to throw something new and interesting at you, unlike Sonic Adventure 2 where a majority of a level feels the same from beginning to end.

SA2 definitely improved on refining the game mechanics and controls (except that somersault/spindash thing) like just pressing a button to do a ring dash instead of charging it up. I would semi-like to see Sonic Adventure with SA2's refined controls.