Hypothetical Sonic Adventure Remake

[gr4yJ4Y]

So lately I've been replaying through Sonic Adventure (DC). The game has definitely aged and not too gracefully.

So I started thinking about what I would change if I was in charge of doing a remake of this 11 year old game. But instead of posting my thoughts, I thought I'd ask you all what you'd do in that position. So what would you change? What would you keep the same?

[Kogen]

Fix the clipping and make Big/Chao optional for Emblems/progression.

[FlashTHD]

The game has definitely aged and not too gracefully.

Not too badly. Chao obviously, graphics and gracefulness of game engine, pretty likely (and even I thought the character models looked...off in '99), and a few tech limitations in the storytelling, otherwise i'm not sure the rest of the creaky joints are hugely noteworthy. It still plays great.

That Hedgehog Engine is awfully, awfully tempting. I have a doubt or two about how efficient it is at this stage, but for Sega of late it's a slick tech achievement. And lordy a game of SA1's pace could be a stunner with that strong a graphics battery. For various reasons Unleashed didn't give you much decent time to appreciate the landscapes outside of some (not all) of the night stages. Emerald Coast's hill crest after the waterfall+pond, BTW, is still the most gorgeous camera shot to date (and the most ruined in DX).

I could get over the akwardness of the game that made Sonic re-relevant a decade ago trying to do the same again, but man, there's many of the same people who made this game to begin with still at Sonic Team and I still wouldn't trust very many of them to do it over...certainly not Iizuka who's hopefully in dev exile for the time being. Yojiro Ogawa, maybe, i'll have to research it a bit...

Don't feel like rattling off a long list of changes worth trying but here's a few thoughts:

-Big's fishing can be saved entirely if the dev team takes pointers from the makers of Sega Bass Fishing. Now there was a cool way to do arcade-y fishing. Slow it down just a notch to better fit Big's uhh, speed, but similar mechanics (minus the boat :p) with a touch of depth and it could work.
-Extend some of the side characters' stories slightly, maybe an extra action stage they couldn't reach before (and perhaps an extra stage for everybody just for kicks after the story)
-Promote Sand Hill from sub-game to full action stage, Sonic and Amy at least making a mandatory trip (depending on plot conflicts)
-Chao mechanics...ug, that's gonna take a lot of work. Yeah, either make the Chao emblems optional, or don't stick a substantial prize at the end of collecting all emblems and find some better way to give it away
-A little extension of the C/B/A missions if feasible, and the ability to assign mission goals at will

Oh right, I guess no matter what we could almost forget about any hope of free DLC like the original. grumbleargsmash

[CM August]

Man, if they had just cleaned up what they had, the game would already be so much better. The controls, camera, collision detection, physics, animation, even cutscenes... simply tightening up and polishing them could have made it an immortal classic like the Genesis games of old. Or what Flash said.

[K2J]

I agree with lengthening the lesser characters stories to even it out a bit, and I'd also like to see user-generated content. If we're going to add a level, I'd like to see a medley level for the Super Sonic story where everyone goes to grab the Emeralds (E-102 not included, obviously).

Of course, if I were doing this my way entirely, it wouldn't be so much of a remake as it would be a retelling. Each character would play through all 10 stages, just in a different order. The C Emblem goal for each character would be to reach the stage's end, no frills asked. The levels themselves would be branching, enabling each character to take a unique permutation of routes (or optional routes) to reach the goal. The original C Emblem would be bumped up to B Emblem, the original A Emblem bumped up to S Emblem, and the A Emblem would be replaced with the new C Emblem with a limit of some sort. Since Sonic never really had a gimmick in this regard, his would be a collect-the-rings mission.

For example, let's look at a hypothetical Knuckles in Lost World:

Emblem C: Reach the Goal!
Emblem B: Find 3 pieces of the Master Emerald!
Emblem A: Reach the Goal in 4:00!
Emblem S: Find 3 pieces of the Master Emerald in 2:00!

But what about the 50 ring mission? It would be relegated to a post-game event to add replay value - after Perfect Chaos is defeated, the Chaos Emeralds have fallen back into Special Stages. Cross the end of an Action Stage with at least 50 rings to get a chance at a 2.5D Special Stage - collect enough rings in the stage before reaching the goal to gain a Chaos Emerald. Get all seven with one character, collect 50 rings in an action stage, then jump and press the action button. I think you know the rest.

Of course, I never played the original past Windy Valley, so I don't know the source material too much, just SADX. I assume its very much the same, only with less sharp character models.

[Kogen]

On Dreamcast, Robotnik has robotic maids. That is not in the DX version.

It makes a huge difference.

[K2J]

Like, female maids? Or just robots sweeping stuff up? Because that second one is present in the GameCube SADX, but not the PC one.

[THEbigLANDMAN]

I would add more fishing stages. And Metal having a side story arc.

[Rob-Bert]

I'd cut the game down to only five characters and add in a few more levels and make the Adventure Fields slightly bigger with more stuff to do. Then make it so that every character can enter every level, since there'd be certain areas in each level that are only accessible to each character.

For the record, I'd scrap Big in favor of an optional fishing mini-game that any character can play at certain spots in the game, and storywise replace Zero (the robot chasing Amy) with Fang, having been hired by Eggman to capture the bird with the Emerald. Naturally he'd be after the Emeralds himself, and this also builds sort of rivalry between Amy and Fang as they're pretty much the only two core Sonic characters who rely on their weapons instead of innate abilities.

In addition, I'd augment the characters movesets to be a little more robust, maybe close to Mario 64-level. For example, a crouch button (right trigger) and separate buttons for each special move (B, X and Y). Tails and Knuckles would be able to Spin Dash now because the move is performed by crouching and tapping any button to charge up (like in the classic games). Sonic could perform a Strike Dash by pressing X. Amy would be probably control a lot more like 3D Mario in general to make things a little less frustrating.

The characters wouldn't be forced to play completely different games this time around. All they'd have to do is complete the levels using their individual abilities. I guess they'd each have their own personal extra missions for flavor, since no game is complete without them. Super Sonic would be accessible in the levels once you make it up to the final episode, but this time you'd have to go and retrieve the seven Emeralds again via beating the Special Stages (as K2J gave a similar idea).

Last thing I would do is flesh out the Chao Garden more and make it optional as well, with a seperate set of "Chao Emblems" for that mode only. There's so much you can do with this particular mini-game that I'd need a separate topic for that entirely, so I think I'll end this here.

[Crisis]

I actually thought it was Knuckles who had the weakest game out of all the characters in SA. In fact I don't think Knuckles has ever really done well in any 3D Sonic game. Between Sonic, Knuckles, and Tails you have 3 very similar character mechanics, but Knuckles seemed to have the least interesting level design and the least intuitive missions, where you usually end up either finishing super quickly out of pure chance or scouring the level forever. Honestly I'm not sure how to integrate Knuckles well into SA - as I said, he's never done well in 3D - perhaps having larger, linear levels where you have to find a certain number of items to move on would work, sort of like the Shadow missions where you had to kill all the good guys/bad guys in a level (except that sucked, so you might only have to find, say, 3 emerald shards out of a possible 7 or something).

Big is the other character that didn't really work for me. I liked the character design and the concept of slower gameplay, but I thought the actual implementation was very dodgy. Fishing was the least intuitive mechanic out of all the characters and I ended up spending a couple of hours trying to figure it out well enough to finish the game - to this day I haven't had the patience to master it. It takes quite a while to actually catch a fish (or maybe I was just doing it wrong, I have no idea) and it's pretty tedious to do. I would suggest that either fishing should be made a lot more simple, straightforward and easy - shifting the emphasis to longer exploration levels rather than the actual fishing component - or to improve and refine the mechanics significantly so that people actually want to go out and fish. Ideally the fishing rod should be worked into platforming puzzles as part of the exploration side of things, something that the original only really touched upon in the Chaos 6 boss battle, as the aiming mechanism of the attack was unique and potentially interesting.

Oh, and Zero should be made more threatening. The Amy levels were really good with some amazing set pieces but once you realise that Zero is actually a bit of a pussy then they lose a lot of their menace. It might be difficult to do this without making him *too* frustrating, but if the right balance could be found and if the level count was doubled then I think Amy's story might actually rival Sonic's.

[FlashTHD]

If we're going to add a level, I'd like to see a medley level for the Super Sonic story where everyone goes to grab the Emeralds (E-102 not included, obviously).

Maybe, that might sap up a little of the drudge of Super Sonic's story. Meanwhile harder boss fights would be so, so, so welcome. In Perfect Chaos's case, it could stand to have both existing halves condensed into one round and then a huge, hard curve ball thrown for the second round.

But I tell you, Sand Hill is dripping with potential for an upgrade. Giant desert plants, ruins that come charging up out of the ground, temples, the sandboarding sequence ect. Plot-wise just do some basic jury-rigging - it would fit great in place of Sonic just happening to plunge from the carrier into exactly the right spot in the jungle, eh? Fall into the desert, lament winding up with his head in the damn sand twice, dash through the desert, sight something suspicious in the jungle and explore the maze. Meanwhile there's probably a decent way to get Amy over there (running from ZERO?) and Tails already goes there so that's a full three characters.

Of course, if I were doing this my way entirely, it wouldn't be so much of a remake as it would be a retelling. Each character would play through all 10 stages, just in a different order.

Which would require throwing out almost the whole plot...

Definitely get around to aftergame Super Sonic for once. What with the amount of content already, adding Special Stages is rather going too far. Give him a seperate character slot so you can not only choose to play without but be able to give him letter mission goals of his own. Also, listen to "Sonic Stream", the last track of the Sonic Remix album...does that not scream all-Super secret stage as a sort of victory lap?

so you might only have to find, say, 3 emerald shards out of a possible 7 or something).

Knuckles' story is about finding all of the emerald pieces. When the game is suddenly contradicting itself by asking you not to have to find them all to progress the story, it stops making any sense.

Big is the other character that didn't really work for me. I liked the character design and the concept of slower gameplay, but I thought the actual implementation was very dodgy. Fishing was the least intuitive mechanic out of all the characters and I ended up spending a couple of hours trying to figure it out well enough to finish the game - to this day I haven't had the patience to master it. It takes quite a while to actually catch a fish (or maybe I was just doing it wrong, I have no idea) and it's pretty tedious to do. I would suggest that either fishing should be made a lot more simple, straightforward and easy - shifting the emphasis to longer exploration levels rather than the actual fishing component - or to improve and refine the mechanics significantly so that people actually want to go out and fish. Ideally the fishing rod should be worked into platforming puzzles as part of the exploration side of things, something that the original only really touched upon in the Chaos 6 boss battle, as the aiming mechanism of the attack was unique and potentially interesting.

Once again, Sega Bass Fishing. A few more uses for the rod might be nice...puzzles weren't touched on much with Big outside of boulder hurling in Icecap and that self-defeating plug pulling exercise in Hot Shelter that made it stupidly diffcult to catch Froggy. Although, if you make Big's stages too much more straightforward, I think the question becomes, what else has to be overhauled to compensate?

Now that I think of it, his B and A emblems need work; unless you feel like going for a stroll, you seldom have to do much of any legwork to find enough fish to hit the weight markers.

[Rob-Bert]

I still say Big should just be scrapped all together save for the parts where he appears in the other character's stories. It's not like his little bit where Froggy eats Chaos's tail was THAT necessary.

But I tell you, Sand Hill is dripping with potential for an upgrade. Giant desert plants, ruins that come charging up out of the ground, temples, the sandboarding sequence ect. Plot-wise just do some basic jury-rigging - it would fit great in place of Sonic just happening to plunge from the carrier into exactly the right spot in the jungle, eh? Fall into the desert, lament winding up with his head in the damn sand twice, dash through the desert, sight something suspicious in the jungle and explore the maze. Meanwhile there's probably a decent way to get Amy over there (running from ZERO?) and Tails already goes there so that's a full three characters.

Many thanks. I've always felt that it should be a full-fledged stage myself.

[Crisis]

Knuckles' story is about finding all of the emerald pieces. When the game is suddenly contradicting itself by asking you not to have to find them all to progress the story, it stops making any sense.

I was under the impression that Knuckles found most of the emerald pieces between missions off-screen, although in hindsight I'm not entirely sure why.

There's no easy way around this. Personally I don't think it would kill my immersion in the game (actually I'd sort of assumed it was already the case), any more than it might from the fact that the shards are in different places each time, or that you can do the stages over and over. I mean, assuming the character takes all the emerald shards he finds, he has no way of knowing there were ever more of them. You could add a little cutscene when you first finish each stage in story mode that implies he finds them, anyway. It's a cop out, I suppose, but it's not something I'd lose sleep over if it meant more streamlined gameplay.

[The Doc]

Am I the only one who thinks that the Sky Chase minigames were just tedious and boring? Yes, they form a bridge to the Egg Carrier, but...it's really BORING. I'd rather play through Big's story again than go through the two Sky Chase Acts. If anything, I'd get rid of those.

As for Sand Hill, what about sticking some Master Emerald shards there and giving that stage to Knuckles? Or hell, what about putting E-106η there and giving it to Gamma?

Another thing I'd do is restructure Final Egg a bit for Sonic. It's the last stage for the story of the most important character and it doesn't feel the least bit...epic. Put something in there to spice it up like, say, a big-assed robot mini-boss or something.

[FlashTHD]

As for Sand Hill, what about sticking some Master Emerald shards there and giving that stage to Knuckles?

I dunno, I like the thought of Amy going there better for some reason and he already has Lost World in the vicinity of the jungle...but there's not a whole lot of other choices for one more story stage is there? Windy Valley? *shrug* (I should mention that I don't think all 6 of them should necessarily have an extra story stage)

[Rob-Bert]

I always figured that every character should at least have access to every stage regardless of whether the story calls for it. The missions located in them would naturally be optional.

[Shadow Hog]

Am I the only one who thinks that the Sky Chase minigames were just tedious and boring?

Yes? In fact, I'd say that it'd do well to stop beating around the bush and play even MORE like Panzer Dragoon, right down to rotating the camera to shoot oncoming enemies from the side, or behind, having a Berserk meter, and reviving that robotic dragon bossfight.

How about adding Hot Shelter as a "bonus" stage for Sonic - he doesn't go to it as part of the normal plot, but he can get in after the Egg Carrier crashes into the ocean.

Also, the postgame should have a more dynamic Station Square - it always annoyed me how it feels more alive during the actual game, but once you finish the story mode, it's stuck at the same time of day, with absolutely no variation whatsoever. Maybe let you select a specific point in time to go back to, a la SA2?

And for the love of God, improve the camera.

[Green Gibbon!]

the bikini girls at station square should show tit

[gr4yJ4Y]

Yes? In fact, I'd say that it'd do well to stop beating around the bush and play even MORE like Panzer Dragoon, right down to rotating the camera to shoot oncoming enemies from the side, or behind, having a Berserk meter, and reviving that robotic dragon bossfight.

I think that would be a little too complicated for a minigame for people who haven't played Panzer Dragoon.

In addition, I'd augment the characters movesets to be a little more robust, maybe close to Mario 64-level. For example, a crouch button (right trigger) and separate buttons for each special move (B, X and Y). Tails and Knuckles would be able to Spin Dash now because the move is performed by crouching and tapping any button to charge up (like in the classic games). Sonic could perform a Strike Dash by pressing X. Amy would be probably control a lot more like 3D Mario in general to make things a little less frustrating.

Wouldn't that make the controls a bit complicated?

One of Sonic's special abilities is his spin-dash (with his homing attack being his other one). If you give it to Knuckles and Tails, that makes it less special. I don't think they really need it though since they can punch and do tail rotations and (respectively) to take care of most problems caused by not having the attack. They wouldn't be able to whip around levels as quick as Sonic, but that's kind of the point.

[Crazy Penguin]

It'd need rebuilding from the ground up really. Even basic things like camera, collision detection and control. The cut scenes would need better direction. The menu music could be less irritating. It's all very clunky and dated in general.

One simple thing I'd change is the Super Sonic section. The adventure field was redundant there and I don't understand why there was gap halfway through the Perfect Chaos boss battle, the pause and change in music killed the momentum.

[gr4yJ4Y]

The adventure field was redundant there and I don't understand why there was gap halfway through the Perfect Chaos boss battle, the pause and change in music killed the momentum.

There's a lot of moments like this where there's a pause and a change in the music. It's rather jarring. The ending credits (for Sonic and Tails at least) are good examples of this. It could definitely be ironed out more.

[Rob-Bert]

Now that I think of it, the game could use a proper day/night system for the Adventure Fields. Certain stages are accessible at certain times of day. Certain areas within the stages are accessible at different times of day.

Just imagine cruising along Emerald Coast in the middle of the night...

[M.C.Dillinger]

Now that I think of it, the game could use a proper day/night system for the Adventure Fields. Certain stages are accessible at certain times of day. Certain areas within the stages are accessible at different times of day.

Just imagine cruising along Emerald Coast in the middle of the night...

It would only be good for post game. And even then it would be very expensive to develop an extra two or three sets of lighting for a stage. If some stages are only accessible at certain times of day it WILL lead to the frustration of waiting for in game time to pass. (Although this would be an easy fix, just give the player control over time of day in the pause menu.) If this were to be applied to the "story mode" it would take away sonic adventures won it narrative merit: that each character's individual story happens at the same time.

[Delphine]

I would create an original IP and stop remaking the same fucking games that we played when we were children.

[Rob-Bert]

Have fun not making a dime. :D