A thought on Sonics future reputation.

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Wombatwarlord777
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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by Wombatwarlord777 »

In all honesty, when wasn't Sonic seen that way? He was created specifically to take Nintendo down a peg, not necessarily to advance platformer games, although that's exactly what happened.
RocketPunch wrote:Sonic's a product of the nineties because that's the last time he made consistently good games. Sure, his character and personality were practically designed to be a flash-in-the-pan trend for a specific era, but that wouldn't matter if there wasn't such an apparent drop in quality from the "classics" to now.
See, characterization is important in games and all - that's partially why Nintendo's flagship series have enjoyed so much success. But the most important thing is gameplay. The classics were fun not only Sonic could run fast, but because he was fun and easy to use and his world has interesting and fun to explore. I think the last game to have speed, control and exploration properly balanced was Sonic Adventure 2. Every game beyond that has had its own balance issues. Sonic Heroes was too loose and too linear. Sonic 2006 was too slow and uncontrolable. Sonic Unleashed does better with the exception of those damned Werehog levels.

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by RocketPunch »

FlashTHD wrote:
RocketPunch wrote:Sonic's future reputation depends on Sega not being so deluded as to think we want every game to have treasure-hunting/team gameplay/guns/swords/werehogs/etc. Once Sega figures out who its fan base is
Oh yeah? Which one?
Yeah, the fan base is irreparably divided, but I think most people who fall under the Sonic fan umbrella would enjoy a well-executed, technically competent Sonic game that resembles the classics. I'd even go as far as to say our frustration with the current games unites us more than the differing continuities ever divided us.
Wombatwarlord777 wrote:See, characterization is important in games and all - that's partially why Nintendo's flagship series have enjoyed so much success. But the most important thing is gameplay.
That's the point I was trying to make. That characterization ISN'T important in games, and that the reason Sonic's failing now has nothing to do with that, but with the fact that his recent games don't hold up to the technical standards set by the old ones.

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by Kogen »

I will just be awkward here, but since when has Nintendo's franchsies outdown Sonic?

From my experience, the last good Mario games that stayed true to the franchise were Super Mario World 2, then lately New Super Mario Brothers. In between that time, there are plenty of good Sonic games. Mario is mostly spin-off crap and sucks a whole lot more than Sonic. No one is going to convince me that Waluigi is a cool character; it is just as stupid as stuff like Silver.

Metroid I suppose fared a bit better, since people seem to love the first Prime game and the other two + the GBA titles are all at least 'good'. Star Fox turned into emo-archie-furry-drama way more than Sonic did, so Nintendo cannot be seen as above that. Link's last great game was on SNES in like 1991, with a few good ones now and then. Nothing to brag about.

Combined all this can be said to be better than Adventure+ Sonic, but each seperately is worse.

Like can anyone really tell me they are not equally embarassed to buy the Zelda game on DS as they are buying Rush Adventure, for example? Both seem kiddy and seem to be directed away from adults, unlike how the franchises used to present themselves. I do not think it is fair to blame SEGA fully on something affecting other popular 80/90s franchises (just throw in other stuff too, like Mega Man).

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by Crowbar »

You seem to be ignoring any popular opinion for most of those.

Last good Mario game was SMW2? Did you not hear about Super Mario 64 or Super Mario Galaxy? Regardless of what you think of them, both were, at the time, argued by many to possibly be the best games ever, and popular opinion is what we're discussing here. (although I would contradict popular opinion by saying that NSMB was garbage)

The spin-off characters aren't really comparable (even the awful ones like Waluigi) as they're not rubbed in our faces with massive, overwrought plotlines. And I'm pretty sure even Mario's spin-off games get better reception than Sonic's main titles. Once you start comparing the spin-off titles directly, like, say, Mario Kart to Sonic Riders, the difference becomes even clearer. And this is to say nothing of the very well-received Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario games.

Much of this goes the same for Zelda. In fact, it's very telling that you yourself compared the weakest recent Zelda game to one of Sonic's recent best.

Not to mention the fact that Ocarina of Time was not only also called the best game ever at the time, but STILL ranks number 1 on Gamerankings.

Actually the more I think about it the more I wonder where the hell you've even been living for the past 10 years if you think all that.

Star Fox I won't defend, though.

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Post by Isuka »

I can see the stupid amount of filler characters as an issue. The faulty game mechanics and lacking technical excellence are also issues. The absurd, ridiculous and faux-serious/ mature stories, those too. The absence of a coherent world and a coherent style for the entire series, you bet.

But, singled out, all those are just issues. The real problem is that, at least in a single specific moment that I tend to pinpoint somewhere between Shadow the Hedgehog and the Sonic 2K6/ Genesis crap-a-thon, they all have come to embody the entirety of Sonic games' essence. That's all they are now, crappy shovelware that sells to both furries and kids who don't know better, both with undeveloped game tastes and with a big liking for the characters, and the more ludicrous the better (this also goes for the setting of each new tard's story).
Baba O'Riley wrote:
j-man wrote:Sonic is supposed to be a badass; the problem being, our modern-day version of badass is, sadly, to run around shooting pregnant women and jacking alien spaceships, when 15 years ago all you had to do was wear a backwards cap and sunglasses. What is "cool" has changed, and so Sonic did too, and when people didn't like that they just watered him down with "love thy neighbour" platitudes and gave him sporting equipment.
Well, give your character a template and they will generally change with the times. I mean, if Sonic had remained the same, he would probably seem dated.

It's a no win scenario, really.
But, it is also true that there isn't just a single, undisputable way of updating dated stuff. As Senbei pointed out and has been said many a time before, the voice acting was a pretty big trade-off, both distancing from the simpler character template and showing that, in reality, much of the time Sonic and co. just don't have much important stuff to say that they couldn't simply express through pantomime. The voice issue was avoidable in at least 90% of cases.
Shadow Hog wrote:I dunno. In concept, the whole free-running thing is basically what I've been wanting from a Sonic game for a good while. Just you and this huge world, where your only objective is to get from here to there. Obviously there'd be some artificial limitations on where you can go, so you can make actual levels, but hell, that's what Mirror's Edge did too. Still, the idea is that if you see it, and it's between you and your goal, you can use your speed to somehow get to it.
Indeed developing a Sonic game that resembles Mirror's Edge isn't a bad idea, moving the camera back to a third person perspective, doing the entire thing more spaceful in order to be able to get a running start and avoid obstacles, putting in lots of enemies and greatly expanding the number of possible actions Sonic can do to interact with and navigate the environment... that sounds real good, indeed.
Kogen wrote:From my experience, the last good Mario games that stayed true to the franchise were Super Mario World 2
And the last half-decent Sonic game was Sonic & Knuckels. Now, seriously, as far as 3D conversions go both Super Mario 64 and Galaxy are great stuff, not perfect by any means but really awesome nonetheless and with enough of the 2D title's essence in them.
Kogen wrote:No one is going to convince me that Waluigi is a cool character; it is just as stupid as stuff like Silver.
Well, at least he doesn't talk spew nonsensical time-traveling BS.
Kogen wrote:Link's last great game was on SNES in like 1991, with a few good ones now and then. Nothing to brag about.
Man, A Link to tthe Past can't hold a candle to Ocarina of Time. Just look at that fucking stupid overworld map and the way it makes you go from one point to the other avoiding shit obstructing your path that shouldn't even be there.
Crowbar wrote:(although I would contradict popular opinion by saying that NSMB was garbage)
That's OK by me.

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by Zeta »

Seconded, New Super Mario Bros WAS SHIT. All it had going for it was nostalgia. Period. Aside from that, it was a sub-par Mario game with nothing innovative or interesting.

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Post by Kogen »

Crowbar wrote:You seem to be ignoring any popular opinion for most of those.
Define 'popular opinion'. Opinions I see normally? Online? Reviewers? 'Professional' reviewers? I can go to one site and it will tell you Sonic sucks, then another will say it is great. I can do the same by going to Japan or France. So I need to know what this 'popular' thing exactly is.
Last good Mario game was SMW2? Did you not hear about Super Mario 64 or Super Mario Galaxy? Regardless of what you think of them, both were, at the time, argued by many to possibly be the best games ever, and popular opinion is what we're discussing here. (although I would contradict popular opinion by saying that NSMB was garbage)
I made a specific point to refer to the games as the 'core' franchise. 64/Galaxy seems way different to me. It feels nothing at all like the 2D Mario games. Much slower and different gameplay. It is like trying to compare 3D and 2D Castlevania games.

NSMB was just 'standard', to me. I judged it as a sequel to the Mario Land games. I do not dislike it, it seems mostly fine for what it is.
The spin-off characters aren't really comparable (even the awful ones like Waluigi) as they're not rubbed in our faces with massive, overwrought plotlines. And I'm pretty sure even Mario's spin-off games get better reception than Sonic's main titles. Once you start comparing the spin-off titles directly, like, say, Mario Kart to Sonic Riders, the difference becomes even clearer. And this is to say nothing of the very well-received Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario games.
Do you realise how many games Waluigi is in? I am not sure they could possibly 'rub it in our faces' further more.

I think this 'better reception' is from entirely corrupted, bribed, bias, and bluntly retarded video game media. Sonic Riders will get shite all over, but it still sells in the millions. I of course realise Nintendo has the largest video game share right now, so it is not praticle to directly compare numbers, but Sonic still sells great. I do not see it as less popular outside the console-association (parents going to a store and asking what the new Wii game is for kids, for example).

I realise the Mario RPGs are generally good, but I was talking of platformers.
Much of this goes the same for Zelda. In fact, it's very telling that you yourself compared the weakest recent Zelda game to one of Sonic's recent best.
I compared the one I had recently gotten that was kiddy and boring after reviewers said it was Jesus on a cart.
Not to mention the fact that Ocarina of Time was not only also called the best game ever at the time, but STILL ranks number 1 on Gamerankings.
So? I doubt the reviews are going to suddenly change some day. It is also a messed up tally of scores, giving an entirely wrong number; therefore pointless.
Isuka wrote:
Kogen wrote:From my experience, the last good Mario games that stayed true to the franchise were Super Mario World 2
And the last half-decent Sonic game was Sonic & Knuckels. Now, seriously, as far as 3D conversions go both Super Mario 64 and Galaxy are great stuff, not perfect by any means but really awesome nonetheless and with enough of the 2D title's essence in them.
I am not sure if you are beign sarcastic or not ('Now, seriously'). I felt that stuff like Sonic Adventure, Pocket Adventure, Advance 1/3, and (pushing it a bit) Rush Adventure were all at least good and stayed true to Sonic's game design.

Like I said earlier, I do not feel 64/Galaxy are anything like the 2D Mario games. Remove the Mario art (keep most of the music even) stuff and it is nothing alike to me.
Kogen wrote:No one is going to convince me that Waluigi is a cool character; it is just as stupid as stuff like Silver.
Well, at least he doesn't talk spew nonsensical time-traveling BS.
No, he makes weird noises and is in 15 games or more. Worse than Silver.
Kogen wrote:Link's last great game was on SNES in like 1991, with a few good ones now and then. Nothing to brag about.
Man, A Link to tthe Past can't hold a candle to Ocarina of Time. Just look at that fucking stupid overworld map and the way it makes you go from one point to the other avoiding shit obstructing your path that shouldn't even be there.
Hey, listen!!!

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by Zeta »

Do you realise how many games Waluigi is in? I am not sure they could possibly 'rub it in our faces' further more.
Name one game that Waluigi is in that's not a spinoff sports game.

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by Ngangbius »

I'm not exactly sure how Sonic Adventure and Sonic Advance 3 was exactly true to the original game design seeing that the former was the introduction of the gimmicky variant gameplay that plagues the 3D games to this day and was a far cry from the stuff in S3&K. As for SAdv3, that was more inspired by Sonic Heroes than the classic games in the franchise. Even Sonic Rush plays different from the Genesis games.

Also Sonic Advance 1 was just as "bland and safe" as NSMB.

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by Zeta »

Also Sonic Advance 1 was just as "bland and safe" as NSMB.
Yeah, but NSMB was marketed less as a little brother title and more as a full-fledged edition in the series that would be a successor to Mario World. I'd actually be more willing to give the thing a pass if it had called itself "Super Mario Bros DS" than "New Super Mario Bros." And Sonic Advance 1 at least added Amy as a playable character and kept most of the moves from Sonic 3 and Knuckles. New Super Mario Bros took away most of the great features introduced in Mario 3 and World and replaced them with the rather useless Mega Mushroom, Mini Mushroom, and suicidal and almost non-existent blue koopa shell. I'd have been really pissed, for example, had Sonic Advance 1 been called "Sonic 3 and Knuckles 2" or "Sonic the Hedgehog 4", for instance.

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

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Zeta wrote:Name one game that Waluigi is in that's not a spinoff sports game.
The Mario DDR game. He was a (quickly-dethroned) villain.

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by CM August »

I don't see how Waluigi is so much worse than Wario anyway. He's slightly less developed than some other Mario cast members to be sure, but that's due to recieving virtually no attention outside of vapid spinoff titles. Hardly as offensive as, say, Petey Pirahna or Bowser Jr. who have polluted almost every Mario title since their inception.

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by Ngangbius »

Zeta wrote:
Also Sonic Advance 1 was just as "bland and safe" as NSMB.
Yeah, but NSMB was marketed less as a little brother title and more as a full-fledged edition in the series that would be a successor to Mario World. I'd actually be more willing to give the thing a pass if it had called itself "Super Mario Bros DS" than "New Super Mario Bros." And Sonic Advance 1 at least added Amy as a playable character and kept most of the moves from Sonic 3 and Knuckles. New Super Mario Bros took away most of the great features introduced in Mario 3 and World and replaced them with the rather useless Mega Mushroom, Mini Mushroom, and suicidal and almost non-existent blue koopa shell. I'd have been really pissed, for example, had Sonic Advance 1 been called "Sonic 3 and Knuckles 2" or "Sonic the Hedgehog 4", for instance.
Sonic Advance 1 had different characters many moves from S3&K, but none of the level design that goes with really utilizing said moves. The game is made for Sonic himself with everyone else being pointless "add-ons" just like the odd power-ups in NSMB.

Also I never thought as New Super Mario Bros. being a successor to Mario World. It seemed as if that it was trying to model after the the first SMB despite the appearance of an overworld map.

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by Kogen »

Zeta wrote:
Do you realise how many games Waluigi is in? I am not sure they could possibly 'rub it in our faces' further more.
Name one game that Waluigi is in that's not a spinoff sports game.
Probably because Nintendo only makes spin-off sports games? Since 64 (1996?) they have made two platformers, to my knowledge. Everything else is sports, party, puzzle games, et cetera. This is why I think the series is over rated and died after SNES.
I'm not exactly sure how Sonic Adventure and Sonic Advance 3 was exactly true to the original game design seeing that the former was the introduction of the gimmicky variant gameplay that plagues the 3D games to this day and was a far cry from the stuff in S3&K. As for SAdv3, that was more inspired by Sonic Heroes than the classic games in the franchise. Even Sonic Rush plays different from the Genesis games.

Also Sonic Advance 1 was just as "bland and safe" as NSMB.
Well Sonic and Tails, which was a majority of the game, played like you would expect. Stuff like Amy and Big was only a few levels, with Big just there to promote fishing games. Gamma and Knuckles were different, but they were not the whole game, like in Mario 64. Half the game is close enough when that half is just as long as past titles (ignoring the 'adventure stuff').

I am not sure how Advance 3 is like Sonic Heroes.It is a 2D platformer where you run, spin, and jump on stuff. 3 acts, then a boss. Yes it had a pointless hub and the level design was not the greatest, but it is still like 2D Sonic. Sonic 3/K had co-op moves too. I guess to you co-op = Sonic Heroes suddenly?

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Post by Isuka »

Kogen wrote:I am not sure if you are beign sarcastic or not ('Now, seriously'). I felt that stuff like Sonic Adventure, Pocket Adventure, Advance 1/3, and (pushing it a bit) Rush Adventure were all at least good and stayed true to Sonic's game design.

Like I said earlier, I do not feel 64/Galaxy are anything like the 2D Mario games. Remove the Mario art (keep most of the music even) stuff and it is nothing alike to me.
Didn't mean any sarcasm there. You have an on-screen avatar in an obstacle-course-like stage comprised by a main stratum and several other platforms or floors, you can make it jump, jumping on enemies kills them or kicks them out of their turtle shells, you beat each stage by getting to the goal... most of the Super Mario Bros. 2D platformer's foundational basis is there, only that you move forward/ inwards instead of to the right, most of the time there is no time limit (lol), there are more moves in order to better and more easily interact with and "manage" (ie. keep the fuckers under control) your environment, and instead of 70+ variations of the same elements you get several objectives per stage. Perhaps the innovations do overtake the game mechanics moreso than the primordial foundational basis, but the fact of the matter is that they are all there, without gimmicky/ altogether unrelated game styles/ genres and characters thrown in for the sake of game durability or any such nonsense.

But yeah, they are much slower games than the 2D ones, that's quite true.
Kogen wrote:No, he makes weird noises and is in 15 games or more. Worse than Silver.
As weird and not cute or cool as he may be, he most definitely didn't have such a shockingly bad introduction. For I can ignore any and all annoying noises a character may emit (Hey, listen!!!), but for such stupidity to make up for the entirety of the character's reason for existing in the first place is just untolerable, and ultimately unforgivable.

In other words, I just couldn't give less of a crap for Waluigui, but I can't stand the sight of what may be the single least imaginative, worst timed and purpose-less fan-character-turned-official ever... nor the werehog bullshit, either.

...Among many more to come, probably.

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by Neo »

Kogen wrote:I am not sure how Advance 3 is like Sonic Heroes.It is a 2D platformer where you run, spin, and jump on stuff. 3 acts, then a boss. Yes it had a pointless hub and the level design was not the greatest, but it is still like 2D Sonic. Sonic 3/K had co-op moves too. I guess to you co-op = Sonic Heroes suddenly?
...Seriously? So, to you, that thing where you plug in a second controller, grab a hold of it and use Tails to fly Sonic somewhere so he can get an extra five rings and maybe a shield is the exact same thing and had the exact same emphasis as the "partner mechanics" used in Sonic Advance 3?

I'm beginning to think you're a hired troll.

Incidentally, while Advance 3 did tighten up some of its prequel's flaws (and arguably had some of the best boss fights in a while), the level design in that game is pure epileptic atrocity and makes Sonic CD's stages seem fluid and coherent. The pure shittiness of masterpieces such as Toy Kingdom and Chaos Angel will forever haunt my mind.

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by Wombatwarlord777 »

The thing that I notice most about the Advance series in general is that its stages really aren't all that inventive. Besides the implementation of rails (which were finally done right in SAdv3), and Egg Rocket Zone, I can't think of one really innovative thing they did with the levels themselves. Sonic Rush and its sequel had some nice 3-D gimmicks, but those were mostly for show. And the "bash-'em-up-to-pass-thru" rooms sucked.

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by Wombatwarlord777 »

Oh, damn the edit limit...
Kogen wrote:Well Sonic and Tails, which was a majority of the game, played like you would expect. Stuff like Amy and Big was only a few levels, with Big just there to promote fishing games. Gamma and Knuckles were different, but they were not the whole game, like in Mario 64. Half the game is close enough when that half is just as long as past titles (ignoring the 'adventure stuff').
Okay, the claim that half of Sonic Adventure plays like the 2D platformers is debatable... But let's say your estimate is right. One half is played as what we'd expect from a 3D Sonic platforming game, and the other half has you finding emeralds, fishing, shooting stuff, ect. That still means that for half the game, you're still doing stuff that don't belong in a Sonic game in principle and/or stuff you'd rather not do. And if it takes 20 hours to beat the game (a figure I'm pulling out of my ass, btw) it's gonna take at least 10 hours to slog through all that shit. And if you want to see the last story and play as Super Sonic, not playing through the worse half isn't an option. I definitely see a problem here.

I'll probably burn for saying this, but one of the things I liked about Sonic 2006 is that when you played as a secondary character, it was generally through some short platforming section. That didn't disrupt flow nearly as much as adjusting to 5 vastly different types of gameplay (Although, to be honest, Sonic 2006's flow already had the consistancy of chunky gravy).

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Post by Kogen »

Isuka wrote:
Kogen wrote:I am not sure if you are beign sarcastic or not ('Now, seriously'). I felt that stuff like Sonic Adventure, Pocket Adventure, Advance 1/3, and (pushing it a bit) Rush Adventure were all at least good and stayed true to Sonic's game design.

Like I said earlier, I do not feel 64/Galaxy are anything like the 2D Mario games. Remove the Mario art (keep most of the music even) stuff and it is nothing alike to me.
Didn't mean any sarcasm there. You have an on-screen avatar in an obstacle-course-like stage comprised by a main stratum and several other platforms or floors, you can make it jump, jumping on enemies kills them or kicks them out of their turtle shells, you beat each stage by getting to the goal... most of the Super Mario Bros. 2D platformer's foundational basis is there, only that you move forward/ inwards instead of to the right, most of the time there is no time limit (lol), there are more moves in order to better and more easily interact with and "manage" (ie. keep the fuckers under control) your environment, and instead of 70+ variations of the same elements you get several objectives per stage. Perhaps the innovations do overtake the game mechanics moreso than the primordial foundational basis, but the fact of the matter is that they are all there, without gimmicky/ altogether unrelated game styles/ genres and characters thrown in for the sake of game durability or any such nonsense.

But yeah, they are much slower games than the 2D ones, that's quite true.
My point is Mario 64 is a different game. One can enjoy either or both of the gameplay styles, but one can also dislike one of them. I dislike 3D Mario, so it ruins it for me. I do not feel someone can say 'lol sonic sux' when Mario had two console releases since SNES was over and both were not like how the series established itself. I am certainly not alone in disliking it, many people who are long-time fans dislike 3D Marios. In the last 15 years, everything with Sonic in it easily outweighs these two Mario games as a whole.
Kogen wrote:No, he makes weird noises and is in 15 games or more. Worse than Silver.
As weird and not cute or cool as he may be, he most definitely didn't have such a shockingly bad introduction. For I can ignore any and all annoying noises a character may emit (Hey, listen!!!), but for such stupidity to make up for the entirety of the character's reason for existing in the first place is just untolerable, and ultimately unforgivable.

In other words, I just couldn't give less of a crap for Waluigui, but I can't stand the sight of what may be the single least imaginative, worst timed and purpose-less fan-character-turned-official ever... nor the werehog bullshit, either.

...Among many more to come, probably.
I hate SIlver too, but I still stand by what I said. I think it is just as bad, and it is unfair to defend Nintendo as being flawless while this shite is festering. I bet it would take a lot of effort to find a group of adults who were fans of 2D Mario that love stuff with Waluigi in it.
Neo wrote:
Kogen wrote:I am not sure how Advance 3 is like Sonic Heroes.It is a 2D platformer where you run, spin, and jump on stuff. 3 acts, then a boss. Yes it had a pointless hub and the level design was not the greatest, but it is still like 2D Sonic. Sonic 3/K had co-op moves too. I guess to you co-op = Sonic Heroes suddenly?
...Seriously? So, to you, that thing where you plug in a second controller, grab a hold of it and use Tails to fly Sonic somewhere so he can get an extra five rings and maybe a shield is the exact same thing and had the exact same emphasis as the "partner mechanics" used in Sonic Advance 3?
In Sonic 3/K, Tails can fly Sonic like you described (and no, it gets you good stuff like emeralds). However, in Sonic Advance 3, with Sonic and Tails, they do the same thing.. Only now a single player can do it (for the better). Where is the flaw in this game design? To me it seems obvious that if you play as two characters, they have co-op moves. Tails carrying Sonic is sort of a trait of Sonic games. It is like Mario riding Yoshi.
I'm beginning to think you're a hired troll.
Then shut up and do not reply to me?
Wombatwarlord777 wrote:
Kogen wrote:Well Sonic and Tails, which was a majority of the game, played like you would expect. Stuff like Amy and Big was only a few levels, with Big just there to promote fishing games. Gamma and Knuckles were different, but they were not the whole game, like in Mario 64. Half the game is close enough when that half is just as long as past titles (ignoring the 'adventure stuff').
Okay, the claim that half of Sonic Adventure plays like the 2D platformers is debatable... But let's say your estimate is right. One half is played as what we'd expect from a 3D Sonic platforming game, and the other half has you finding emeralds, fishing, shooting stuff, ect. That still means that for half the game, you're still doing stuff that don't belong in a Sonic game in principle and/or stuff you'd rather not do. And if it takes 20 hours to beat the game (a figure I'm pulling out of my ass, btw) it's gonna take at least 10 hours to slog through all that shit. And if you want to see the last story and play as Super Sonic, not playing through the worse half isn't an option. I definitely see a problem here.
You seem to entirely forget that the Dreamcast was built for this game. It was to present their console to the world. Of course they want to branch out so they can show off what their new hardware can do. Chaos existed because prior to this, transparancy was not possible in 3D. And so on with everything else. In the long run this ends up being a flaw, but at the time it amazed everyone and got 9/10s. The core Sonic game is still just as good as the other stuff in my opinion, and if you removed that other stuff, I think more people would look positively on it.

However, while this is based on what you like, I enjoyed playing as everyone except Big. Lets say they gave Gamma a 20 hour game like that... then yes, I would not like it much after awhile. But guess what? They never. Mario did this, though, and that is the problem and the difference. A variety of concepts can work in opposition to dragging it on forever.
I'll probably burn for saying this, but one of the things I liked about Sonic 2006 is that when you played as a secondary character, it was generally through some short platforming section. That didn't disrupt flow nearly as much as adjusting to 5 vastly different types of gameplay (Although, to be honest, Sonic 2006's flow already had the consistancy of chunky gravy).
I kind of agree. I think this can work in certain situations for games, it is not a bad idea if it plays well. Like if you ever played The Lost Vikings games.

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Re: Re:

Post by Neo »

Kogen wrote:In Sonic 3/K, Tails can fly Sonic like you described (and no, it gets you good stuff like emeralds). However, in Sonic Advance 3, with Sonic and Tails, they do the same thing.. Only now a single player can do it (for the better). Where is the flaw in this game design? To me it seems obvious that if you play as two characters, they have co-op moves. Tails carrying Sonic is sort of a trait of Sonic games. It is like Mario riding Yoshi.
You can get into an otherwise inaccessible special ring in Lava Reef 1. Other than that and Hidden Palace's hidden goodies, tell me one place which is Tails-only and doesn't involve going through an alternate path, usually with spikes pasted all over the walls so Knuckles can't follow, or simply higher above than Sonic can reach, and has nothing of reward except for some few dozen rings, maybe a shield, 1-up, etc. and a quicker route to a place in the stage you'd ultimately have to visit.

On the other hand, however, Advance 3 tried to shove partner gameplay down your throat with barriers only power combinations can break, ledges only fly combinations can get to, etc. One is accessory, the other is a bullet point in the back of the game box.
Kogen wrote:Then shut up and do not reply to me?
wups 2 l8 sry

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Kogen
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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by Kogen »

I suppose next you will say spindash ruined the series because you need to spindash sometimes to get to places in Sonic 2.

This little point is not really related to the general topic, so just stop being weird about it.

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by Zeta »

The Mario DDR game. He was a (quickly-dethroned) villain.
I would count a game about breakdancing a sports spinoff game, yes.
Probably because Nintendo only makes spin-off sports games? Since 64 (1996?) they have made two platformers, to my knowledge. Everything else is sports, party, puzzle games, et cetera. This is why I think the series is over rated and died after SNES.
Since 64, the Nintendo policy has been to generally only release one main edition of each of their main franchises per console. Considering they have at least 30 different major franchises to juggle, I consider this an OK policy. I would worry more about the company trying to do justice to a main series with two major editions within the same five year console development cycle than them only releasing one edition per console. I think, for instance, that Sonic would be much better off if they did this and allowed longer development times. Longer development times = generally greater quality.

Shorter development times would equal more Mario and Zelda games per console, but I doubt they'd be equal to the quality of one five-year developed title. In the NES and SNES era, putting together a quality title with the available hardware was easier and short enough that they could do multiple titles in the lifecycle of a system, which is no longer the case. Thus, you're only going to get one Mario and one Zelda and etc. per console except in extra-ordinary circumstances (IE - The Metroid Prime games and Wind Waker/Twilight Princess). This has worked well for Nintendo aside from the GameCube era, in which a lot of the weirder experimentation (Wind Waker's sailing, Mario's waterhose, Luigi in a vaccum cleaner, and Star Fox becoming a furry soap opera) didn't pan out. But that's precisely why Twilight Princess was made. It wasn't so great itself, but it had a great cast (Midna is the best character the series has had since the original Ganon, Link, Zelda trio and I hope she becomes a mainstay) and some great art. However, the game was explicitly created because people wanted a direct follow-up to Ocarina - but it's becoming clear that the Zelda team wants to take the franchise in a new direction if the steampunk experimentation seen in Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks and the FPS stuff in Link's Crossbow Training is any indication. In this way, I think Twilight Princess was mean to be a temporary "farewell" to the familiar Zelda setting and gameplay style.

On the topic of the Mario Sports spinoffs: I also don't mind the sports spinoffs, because most of them end up being decent to really good titles, I just don't give a shit about any sport in general. I certainly would be less annoyed by Sonic's Shitty Friends if they were created for and regulated to appearing only mostly in the R/Riders series.

Speaking of which, good god does Star Fox need a hard reboot. That is one series that needs to be handled better, needs a clean slate instead of the 20 years of furry relationship drama it has now, and needs new gameplay. They really dropped the ball with that one. Command was OK for what it was, though. Adventures and Assault were pretty bad (though Assault's multiplayer was actually a lot of fun if you felt like playing Halo-Lite on the GameCube). I also desperately want Krystal to die and to bring back Fay and Miyu to the cast, since they seem like much less annoying and more interesting females.

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by FlashTHD »

RocketPunch wrote:
FlashTHD wrote:
RocketPunch wrote:Sonic's future reputation depends on Sega not being so deluded as to think we want every game to have treasure-hunting/team gameplay/guns/swords/werehogs/etc. Once Sega figures out who its fan base is
Oh yeah? Which one?
Yeah, the fan base is irreparably divided, but I think most people who fall under the Sonic fan umbrella would enjoy a well-executed, technically competent Sonic game that resembles the classics. I'd even go as far as to say our frustration with the current games unites us more than the differing continuities ever divided us.
Ah k then, it sounded like you were laying on the specifics a bit thick there or worse, trying to get at some awful fan pandering conclusion.

Anything I say about the danger of all-out pandering probably couldn't top this bit of hilarious brilliance from Peter Parrish at the The Escapist:
It doesn't stop there. There are larger groups in other gaming communities who are so entrenched in the world of their chosen obsession that they dedicate unnatural amounts of time attempting to shape their cherished games as they see fit. Where it is present, this implicit pressure will surely be to the detriment of a given series. Fans are capable of offering valid development suggestions, but game designers must avoid Sega's fate and shun the tyranny of the vociferous. We can all name films which have been all but ruined by audience focus groups. Gaming must be careful if it wishes to avoid similar casualties.
Oh my. Now who might that remind me of?

The whole article is pretty good, one exception being the "nightmarish, huge-eyed infantilism" bit...okay one, only if you believe it yourself dude, and two, if he believes it himself, then you got wonder how much he was twisted by the Deviantart searches he must have done with the safe filter off...
Neo wrote:Incidentally, while Advance 3 did tighten up some of its prequel's flaws (and arguably had some of the best boss fights in a while), the level design in that game is pure epileptic atrocity
I lol'ed and i'm stealing that line in the future, though there's also simulation of electric shocks every 5 seconds via cheap hits (or is that epileptic too) and the worst 2D Sonic controls there ever was and ever will be.

Ngangbius: "The game is made for Sonic himself"? Ok, well, for starters you try getting to some of the special springs with just him and then get back to me. Closer to the point, they're not as pointless as they seem, it's about the same concept as Knuckles in Sonic 2, or Sonic 3 (specifically Sonic 3) without the story emphasis, or hell even Triple Trouble...this became a problem in the sequels alright, but I fail to see the crime in the first one.
Zeta wrote:I also desperately want Krystal to die and to bring back Fay and Miyu to the cast, since they seem like much less annoying and more interesting females.
Ha, and I just happened to start playing Starfox 2 today. Yeah they buried themselves good by giving so much closure in Command, but if anything's going to be done about it, we have a ways yet to wait...whatever it is Takaya Imamura's doing now, I don't know of him saying anything significant about Star Fox or F-Zero in years.

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by Ngangbius »

Flash wrote: "The game is made for Sonic himself"? Ok, well, for starters you try getting to some of the special springs with just him and then get back to me. Closer to the point, they're not as pointless as they seem, it's about the same concept as Knuckles in Sonic 2, or Sonic 3 (specifically Sonic 3) without the story emphasis, or hell even Triple Trouble...this became a problem in the sequels alright, but I fail to see the crime in the first one.
I can't speak on the issue with the Special Stages since I haven't really bothered that much with actively searching the springs with any of the characters. I just discovered one or two of them using Sonic and/or Tails. Maybe some else can counter your point or support it depending on if they acquired all the emeralds with Sonic or not. I have a feeling it is possible to attain all the emeralds as Sonic but it is just more of a challenge.

As for your second point, Knuckles game in Sonic 3&K is much more complex than the stuff in Sonic Advance 1. There are multiple routes that take advantage of Knuckles power that Sonic and Tails can't access to, and in addition, the bosses have a different attack pattern than the latter two's. Knuckles in Sonic 2 is much more simple, almost close SonicAdv1 concept, though you are rewarded with multiple lives for your climbing and gliding and 2 tougher boss battles due to your lower jump. However, I don't really treat Knux in Sonic 2 on the same level as S3&K because it really feels like a cute novelty.

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Re: A thought on Sonics future reputation.

Post by CM August »

Zeta wrote:Adventures and Assault were pretty bad ... I also desperately want Krystal to die and to bring back Fay and Miyu to the cast, since they seem like much less annoying and more interesting females.
It's pretty tragic. Krystal's characterization was virtually purged (along with almost everything else that would have made Dinosaur Planet really interesting) in the conversion from an original title to a Starfox game. Nintendo should never have made such a demand in the first place, since it was pretty much the start of Fox's bad luck. A reboot, or at least a partial one, is definitely in order.

Does Nintendo even acknowledge Miyu and Fay's existence? I've only seen them present in that one cancelled title.

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