Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

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DackAttac
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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by DackAttac »

Kogen wrote: Why is it you run into more tranny cross-dressers in the Final Fantasy fanbase than anywhere else? It is just so random and unexpected considering the franchise's content, right?
I'm not saying it doesn't fall under the umbrella, I'm just saying you don't hear of Bugs Bunny, Felix the Cat or Garfield inspiring gangbang fanfics. Sonic being the worst offender I can understand, but it seems disproportionately so.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by Ngangbius »

Zeta wrote:
Do not even get me started on why people who watch Gundam like robots. So strange.
They don't want to fuck the robots, though. Well, most of them, anyways.
Yeah, the psychotic TransFans are the ones who are robot fuckers.
DackAttac wrote:I'm not saying it doesn't fall under the umbrella, I'm just saying you don't hear of Bugs Bunny, Felix the Cat or Garfield inspiring gangbang fanfics. Sonic being the worst offender I can understand, but it seems disproportionately so.
Thanks to the creation of token character, Lola Bunny, I bet they exist now more than ever. :-(

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CM August
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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by CM August »

Too much furry discussion in this thread.

AoSTH and SatAM were super. The former I go for sheer mindless entertainment, the latter when I want something more substantial and compelling. Lots of enjoyment between the two; easily the two Sonic properties I value most after the classic games.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by Ngangbius »

I watched both cartoons when I was a kid since I was really into Sonic, but looking back on them several years later they pretty much sucked. AoStH had the benefit of not taking itself seriously even though it had some horrible art design and the humor was more or less Loony Tunes for babies.

Now that I think about it, I don't see myself enjoying anything DiC produced now since unlike Warner Bros., Hanna-Barbera, etc. their output specifically catered to children without really attempting to appeal to teens and young adults.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by CM August »

Pretty much the opposite here - my appreciation for the shows has actually increased with time, along with the old games. Maybe that just came from slowly learning what made them effective in the first place, like the momentum and physics of the games for example. The flaws of each became more apparent too, but the good always outweighed the bad.

And they all offered a completely different take on Sonic - if my interest in the games waned (which is pretty much a permanent state now) I'd go enjoy one of the other Sonic series. It's probably what kept me more interested in Sonic than other giants like Mario at the time.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by Ngangbius »

I will always think of Sonic as a video game character first and formost than a cartoon or comic character. It could be because I was first introduced to the whole shebang with the first Sonic game, or mostly because I would rather control a cool and cute mute hedgehog in a great gaming concept and art direction, than to listen to that same character who is now obnoxious due to awful catchphrases, artifical coolness, and that he is gratingly voiced by the same person played a nerdy equivilant to the Fonz. Interestingly enough, I find the current incarnation Sonic's character in the recent games to be annoying by nearly the same reasons, only replace "catchphrase" with "whole lines of dialogue" and "celeb" with "some average voice actor". That is small peanuts, however to the unwanted and rushed game mechanics he and his friends have been thrust upon the first real entry in 3D platforming.

So, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you concerning the games as the are in general. I admit that I smiled when I saw that Night of the Werehog short, but then it quickly left remembering that this is an advert for a game where Sonic suffers lycanthropy while pretending to be a kid-friendly Kratos.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

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Frieza2000 wrote:That said, Sonic does seem to have a supernatural pension for inspiring impressionable minds. Maybe the new art style is just more inclined in that direction than other cartoons, appealing to something subconscious.
Sounds reasonable, but what the hell could that special "something" about the Sonic series critters that gives 12 year olds the hots for them possibly be? The only thing i can think of that separates most Sonic characters (in their post-SA look) from most other Felix the Cat-type cartoon animals is that they tend to be slimmer. Humanoid cartoon animals tends to have a round stomach (think Mickey Mouse or the aforementioned Felix), while Sonic and most of his associates on the other hand are wider around the chest than around the stomach, which makes them look more fit than Felix and the like. But then again, certain Sonic characters, such as Tails and the other children, have the more typical "pot-belly", and yet young (and God knows more than a couple of not so young) Sonic fans seem to find them just as bonerific as the "fit" characters.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by Kogen »

Dr. Watson wrote:
Frieza2000 wrote:That said, Sonic does seem to have a supernatural pension for inspiring impressionable minds. Maybe the new art style is just more inclined in that direction than other cartoons, appealing to something subconscious.
Sounds reasonable, but what the hell could that special "something" about the Sonic series critters that gives 12 year olds the hots for them possibly be? The only thing i can think of that separates most Sonic characters (in their post-SA look) from most other Felix the Cat-type cartoon animals is that they tend to be slimmer. Humanoid cartoon animals tends to have a round stomach (think Mickey Mouse or the aforementioned Felix), while Sonic and most of his associates on the other hand are wider around the chest than around the stomach, which makes them look more fit than Felix and the like. But then again, certain Sonic characters, such as Tails and the other children, have the more typical "pot-belly", and yet young (and God knows more than a couple of not so young) Sonic fans seem to find them just as bonerific as the "fit" characters.
You are thinking too highly of humanity.

Proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paraphilias

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

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Symphorophilia = disasters

Huh. I think we just found a reasonable explanation to why some people actually liked Sonic 06...

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by Crowbar »

It's probably mostly just the time period during which Sonic emerged into popularity.

Furries pretty much just didn't exist before the 70s, at the earliest, at least not in any significant proportion. Things like the internet (allowing people with extreme viewpoints to more easily find people of similar views, thus nurturing them) and general shifts in ways of thinking coincided with the emergence of Sonic the Hedgehog. If Bugs Bunny had been created at that time I'm confident we'd have had just as much erotica associated with him as we do now of Sonic.

There is also, as I think has been mentioned, the simple matter of the target demographic. Older funny animal characters were aimed at younger audiences (though sometimes had enough sophistication to please adults too). Sonic has always been aimed quite specifically at early teens, who are just discovering sexuality. This has become much more pronounced as time has passed, so naturally the furry leanings have intensified.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by Frieza2000 »

Dr. Watson wrote:Sounds reasonable, but what the hell could that special "something" about the Sonic series critters that gives 12 year olds the hots for them possibly be? The only thing i can think of that separates most Sonic characters (in their post-SA look) from most other Felix the Cat-type cartoon animals is that they tend to be slimmer.
I think the in-story romantic suggestions are part of where this designation comes from. Mickey and Minnie's relationship is never really questioned or explored. The fact that the pairings in Sonic are pronounced yet open encourages the audience to ask "what if," and that might be where it all starts. And as Crowbar said, the timing and audience definitely play a part.

But I do see differences in the art. Tails is in his own little category, and Rouge is intentionally provocative, but for the rest it's all in the face. Their bodies may end up becoming objects of sexual interest, but they're so misanthropic that I don't think that can possibly be where the attraction starts. The bright colors might also play a part. That's as specific as I can come up with, though.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by Crazy Penguin »

Challenge time! Which episodes did the robots from Dr Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine appear in? The only one I ever recognised (aside from Scratch, Grounder and Coconuts naturally) was Dragon Breath from the first episode.

Also! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9T3qiVjUxw

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by Kogen »

Frieza2000 wrote:bright colors
I always get erections from that.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by Ngangbius »

Crowbar wrote:Furries pretty much just didn't exist before the 70s, at the earliest, at least not in any significant proportion. Things like the internet (allowing people with extreme viewpoints to more easily find people of similar views, thus nurturing them) and general shifts in ways of thinking coincided with the emergence of Sonic the Hedgehog. If Bugs Bunny had been created at that time I'm confident we'd have had just as much erotica associated with him as we do now of Sonic.

There is also, as I think has been mentioned, the simple matter of the target demographic. Older funny animal characters were aimed at younger audiences (though sometimes had enough sophistication to please adults too). Sonic has always been aimed quite specifically at early teens, who are just discovering sexuality. This has become much more pronounced as time has passed, so naturally the furry leanings have intensified.
Actually, Looney Tunes and I believe Tom and Jerry were originally aimed at adult audiences despite being treated as "kiddie" fare today. And Sonic's main audience spanned younger than early teenagers(think six-year-olds as the starting point).

Though I think you may be on to something with your first point. I mean before Sonic the Hedgehog existed there were probably people sexualizing Tiny Toons--specifically Babs Bunny. I remember reading that Tress MacNeille getting some real creepy letters from older fans of Tiny Toons who were obsessed with Babs, the character she voiced. Before that there were folks who obsessed about Gadget, also voiced by MacNeille from Chip n' Dale Rescue Rangers. While this was before the internet, I assume cons for furries existed back then even though they were probably much smaller than they are now, and I assume fanzines were in vogue amoung the counter-culture.

I can't really comprehend how someone can find Sonic "sexy" even with his make-over, but then these are some of the same people who sexualize Pokemon and Digimon.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by CM August »

Crazy Penguin wrote:Challenge time! Which episodes did the robots from Dr Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine appear in? The only one I ever recognised (aside from Scratch, Grounder and Coconuts naturally) was Dragon Breath from the first episode.
They all appear in that episode too, just with less defined designs and different color schemes.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by Crowbar »

Ngangbius wrote:Actually, Looney Tunes and I believe Tom and Jerry were originally aimed at adult audiences despite being treated as "kiddie" fare today. And Sonic's main audience spanned younger than early teenagers(think six-year-olds as the starting point).
Actually that first point is probably right, on reflection. They were THEATRICAL shorts, after all. However, I would dispute the second: Mario was aimed at that demographic, and Sega specifically decided to go for an older one in order to be able to both compete and to seem "edgier".

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

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Mario wasn't intended specifically for children either(or even just teen & adults). I really don't think Miyamoto originally thought when he created DK and SMB "hmm...maybe I should make these games specifically for children". These games were catered to everybody and the Famicom/NES was originally advertised as the system for everyone just like the Wii is now. I guess over time when Mario became a merchandise phenomenon via toys, cartoons, comics, etc. and the fact that the franchise isn't really that violent he came to be percieved as "kiddie". Funny enough, many current titles in the Mario franchise seem to be very popular with adults such as the Mario Party, Mario Kart, and New Super Mario Bros. I think Mario has become such a big pop culture icon worldwide that he transcended certain age groups again.

I believe Sonic was the same way no matter how SEGA(especially the American branch) advertised Sonic as the cool dude for teens. His first game is just as simple enough to be played by everyone, and his coolness persona would be even more attractive to younger kids(who has this romantic view of adolescence). As soon as SEGA allowed comics and cartoons to be created he started to become "kid's stuff" just like Mario. Not too mention, "funny cartoon animals" at this time were looked as "kiddie" characters. I think Sonic was close to being percieved as being a franchise for everyone again courtesy of his rebirth on the DC. Though afterwords, the franchise went through so growning pains of either being "too juvenille" or "too serious" for many people over 13 to take seriously. It didn't help that the GTA franchise and its clones were the "in" thing last-gen.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by Kogen »

Mario titles seem dependant on what they are. Could you really picture an adult buying Mario Party for himself without feeling like a queer? But something like Galaxy or NSMB seems absolutely fine. I would say Sonic is the same, with something like Unleashed being a bit awkward to purchase, but something like Sonic Adventure or Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection being fine.

I agree with you on the second bit, though. Kiddy cartoons like Sonic X that try to market themselves as 'serious anime' or all that weird stuff since Sonic Adventure 2 that was either absolutely childish (Heroes) or 13 year extreme retardation (Shadow) really hurt Sonic's image.

I think it is as simple as using the classic design to fix Sonic, even if just boxart. Both kids and adults would purchase a Sonic game with the boxart of Sonic Genesis (I know, bad example) if it was a good game; it has the universal appeal that Mario benefits in his platformer games.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by Wombatwarlord777 »

I'm gonna have to go with Ngangbius on this one... The reason why people of all ages buy the main games of the Mario series is because Mario really doesn't try to appeal to a particular audience. The same could be said of the Sonic games, up to about SA2. As usual, the trouble really started with Heroes...

...With a few exceptions, Heroes felt like the first Sonic game to try and appeal to a larger audience. Perhaps, following release of Sonic Adventure 2: Battle for the Gamecube, Sega realized that there was a whole market of younger gamers willing to play Sonic, and decided to cater at least part of Heroes to them. Thus, Team Rose, with its unthreatening characters and easy difficulty, was created. The same could be said for other teams. Team Shadow appealed to teens who wanted characters with a bit of "edge", and Team Chaotix appealed to the nostalgia of pre-Adventure fans (even with their updated looks). Sonic Team was sorta there because... Well, you can't have a proper Sonic game without Sonic, even if he's totally bland, shallow, and completely overshadowed by everyone else.

The problem since then is that Sega has made it a priority to find the "right" demographic for Sonic, which has had a detrimental effect upon atmosphere of the games. ShtH (and arguably Sonic 06) tried to appeal to the older set with weapons, and giant alien monsters, and huge storylines filled with conflict and drama. But eventually, one has to set back from these games and think "How absolutely ridiculous is this? This series is based on a frickin' blue hedgehog. Why does it need all this angst and shit?!?" Thus, the efforts to force Sonic into a "mature" franchise come off as childish and silly.

I personally felt that Unleashed did a better job not trying to appeal to a specific audience, with the exception of Chip. He was clearly designed to appeal to the younger market, with his zany personality and antics and what have you. But it's also interesting to note that people seem to hate him as much as the whole Werehog mechanics. And that's saying something.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by Kogen »

Shadow the Hedgehog was made to appeal to the 14 year old market (they stated it directly). That is not a mature market, everyone older than 14 knows that.

Heroes seemed to follow the Mario model of Sunshine on a purple console and came out just as gay. I do not think Chaotix appealed to retro-fans much as barely anyone knows who they are.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by CM August »

My beef isn't with edgy/cutesy elements in themselves, just that they've almost always been handled in a really stupid and poorly-implemented manner.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by Wombatwarlord777 »

And misdirected. At least in the 16-bit era games, part of Sonic's edgy appeal was that he was (almost explicitly) faster and more graceful than Mario. But what really sold that message is that the mechanics, design and environments of the games authentically backed up that claim.

Sonic is still (or at least, attempts to be) slick and graceful, but 3D games never really captured the right balence of speed, control and maneuverability to properly reflect the character, at least to the extent that the 2D games did.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by Ngangbius »

Kogen wrote:Mario titles seem dependant on what they are. Could you really picture an adult buying Mario Party for himself without feeling like a queer?
Actually, I can, and I'm not talking about purchases from the really die-hard Nintendo fanatics. I'm talking about the people who love the Wii_____. line of titles. These people are more likely to purchase those Mario Party over Galaxy, mainly because the latter seems more intimidating than your 2D Mario or simple mini-game collection.
I agree with you on the second bit, though. Kiddy cartoons like Sonic X that try to market themselves as 'serious anime' or all that weird stuff since Sonic Adventure 2 that was either absolutely childish (Heroes) or 13 year extreme retardation (Shadow) really hurt Sonic's image.
I don't remember Sonic X being marketed as a serious anime seeing that it aired on Sunday mornings in Japan, which is the Saturday morn equivalent there and Naka comparing the show as the Pokemon anime rival. As I said the franchise juvenillization started in the 90's with the advent of toys, comics/manga from kid-friendly publishers, and syndicated/SatAM cartoons. The only reason it didn't seem as bad back then as it did now is that the main-line games didn't feel childish, and that there weren't as many "M"-rated games in the mainstream back then as there are today.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by CM August »

Maybe there's just some mixed messages here, but all this talk of 'juvenillization' irks me. Right from the beginning Sonic was very, very kiddy, and simplistic as can be. What allows older audiences to appreciate that sort of thing (and I think the same principal applies to Mario games and even other children's mediums) is its high production values - whether that's impressive visual design, music, gameplay or story. A simplistic or kid-friendly approach doesn't matter if it still manages to be clever and interesting. Which is where the problem of today's Sonic lies: most of it is far from clever. In fact it's very, very stupid.

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Re: Loud obnoxius critic reviews Sonic cartoons

Post by Delphine »

K2J wrote:I think they don't really know they're acting that way. They think everyone's just chipper with the fact that they claim they've married Sonic.
Image

Hm.

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