Ivo

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Team Mecha
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Re: Ivo

Post by Team Mecha »

Oh wow, that fits pretty well into my SatAM inspired sequel theory. Swatbots, robotization & now a world where Robotnik rules. It'd be pretty obvious for the party to encounter some small band of resistance that's been doing the fighting in their absence.

Well okay, I suppose they could just as well use the Chaotix or other lesser gameverse characters in that role but with the set-up, a western developer on board & the idea of a Sonic/Amy/Sally triangle giving the dialogue trees some purpose, they might as well pull the trigger.









(& have Tails as the "Barret" of the triangle for the lulz)

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Re: Ivo

Post by Crowbar »

Team Mecha wrote:Well maybe if Cream's refresh didn't demand such absolute speed & perfection or maybe if the characters didn't have so little PP to begin with, I'd be able to do something about those high armored pawns. Lord knows I can't avoid them on the overworld if I tried. It took me half the game to get any sort of hang of the bloody EBA controls (no I can not in fact play rhythm games at all. I didn't think that would nessasary in an RPG).
Well I suppose I'm probably a bit better at rythm games in general than most people, but really, it's not that hard to learn just that one game-breaking move, at least. It's not like PP restoring items are all that hard to come by either. Offensively, Sonic+Shadow's Atomic Strike and Knuckles+Shade's Echidna Rush will annihilate pretty much anything (and I'm pretty sure you can get away with imperfect input on them, too). And there are plenty of good armour-piercing solo moves (Uppercut, Beam Cannon, Chaos Spear, these are mostly really easy to execute, too).
Out of curiosity where does "Mario going down the pipe" being the same as "Mario getting hit" rank? I didn't get why they kept it that way well onto NSMB.
Um, that's been that way since Super Mario Bros. So nowhere.

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Dr. Watson
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Re: Ivo

Post by Dr. Watson »

Green Gibbon! wrote: I'm considering Sonic Chronicles non-canon for the time being.
Wait, what? But you consider all Sonic games canon! That one of the things that makes your Sonic litterature so interesting, that from a "continuity" point of view you take into account even the most obscure spin-off games, regardless of how much they contradict the main games, or what company develomped them, or how much they suck. You just either try to overlook the inconsistencies or simply lable them retcons. By God, in your encyclopedia you even managed to avoid making a big deal about the monstrous plothole that is Eggman Nega's origins. And in doing this combining of all games storylines and all instruction manuals character profile tid-bits into one big, uniform continuty, you make the Sonic universe seem so much more complex and interesting than anyone at Sega would ever think of it.

I think it would kinda suck if you start now to pick and choose which games fits into the conitnuty and which games dont. And even if you do, Chronicles is hardly the most valid game to exclude, SWAT-bots and "Ivo's" aside. I mean, the schism between the storylines of the Rush and Rivals series is far, far, far more damaging to the series continuity than anything in Chronicles.

But of course, this is just my ever so humble opinion, which i humbly express to you in my most humble way, my lord.

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FlashTHD
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Re: Ivo

Post by FlashTHD »

A little late. Two encyclopedias ago he was asking us whether or not stuff from Spinball ought to be considered kosher, and in the current one I still don't think he's made a spot for the Veg-O-Fortress.

I wouldn't see much problem in kicking Chronicles to the curb myself since, far as i'm aware, Bioware dug into long established plot points from the old trilogy/SA1 and started doodling in the margins. (And didn't get Green Hill's location even close to correct.) Although...if you still really want to get the questionable stuff in there, it might work to tag said pages with different color links and leave notes where needed.

This begs another question that came to me while flipping through the old layouts on archive.org: the GHZ used to be the Almost Everything Sonic Team site, so...why did you never cover their early works as AM8?

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Re: Ivo

Post by FlashTHD »

And now that we've got this boulder rolling only 3½ days from the one-year anniversary of the current front page update, this might be a good moment to ask why the Other Games, Sonic Team, and Those Responsible pages are turning up blank.

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Dr. Watson
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Re: Ivo

Post by Dr. Watson »

FlashTHD wrote:A little late. Two encyclopedias ago he was asking us whether or not stuff from Spinball ought to be considered kosher, and in the current one I still don't think he's made a spot for the Veg-O-Fortress.
Yeah but come on, that game displayed an entirely different level of canon-shattering than Chronicles. It actually featured Princess Sally, and a whole bunch of other characters taken straight out of Sonic universes that is obviously suposed to be completely separate from Sonic Teams. Of course, Chronicles featured robots called SWAT-bots, but they were probably intended more as homages to the SatAM baddies than to be the very same characters.

And there was actually very little in Chronicles that contradicted previous games, and the contaradictions that it did feature was admitingly minor things that only obsessed Sonic nerds (in other words, most people that frequent this site, including myself) would ever notice. The South Island thing is a good example. It's hardly a widely known fact where the original Sonic games took place. If asked about it, most people would probably just answer "Mobius?". You just cant expect the people at Bioware to know as much about the Sonic series as we fans do. And they obviously did do a whole lot of research on the series, as become evident from reading that... what was it called again? You know, that Poké-dex-like thingy you can read in the game? Whatever, that information database with character profiles and shit. And considering they probably got much of that info from the internet, there is no wonder some "fanon" unknowingly snuck into the game. Cause that's what i think, that most of the stuff with questionable canoninity we saw in Chronicles was actually stuff that the producers thought was canonical. Of course, the inclusion to SWAT-bots was and concious homage to SatAM. But Im talking about things such as calling Eggman "Ivo", refering to Tails as "Tails the Fox" or having Sonic being fond of Chilli dogs, things that is often considered, and believed to be, official/canonical by the fanbase, and hench tends to show up on places like wikipedia and such.

And besides, most of these things actually dont contaradict anything from previous games. I mean sure, Sonic liked chilli dogs in the game, but hey, they never specifically stated in any other games that he does'nt like chilli dogs.

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Esrever
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Re: Ivo

Post by Esrever »

Sonic Unleashed says that Chili dogs are Sonic's favourite food, too! I was really surprised to see that old bit finally work it's way into a Sonic Team-helmed title.

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Re: Ivo

Post by Crazy Penguin »

I think chilli dogs were mentioned in Sonic's profile in one of the Japanese strategy guides. Sonic Advance 3 perhaps?

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Re: Ivo

Post by Frieza2000 »

Hybrid wrote:She admits she made him up to make Sonic jealous. In that same conversation, you can make Sonic tell Amy he loves her, pretty much. I went with that option to see where it would go, but shit hits the fans pretty soon after that and I don't think Sonic and Amy ever say another word to each other the whole game. Not that I was surprised that yet another branching conversation had no effect whatsoever on anything!
There are a few possibilities for that scene, actually. You can read all of them here. Predictably, it's the only part of the game script I can find online.

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Re: Ivo

Post by Team Mecha »

Dr. Watson wrote:
FlashTHD wrote:A little late. Two encyclopedias ago he was asking us whether or not stuff from Spinball ought to be considered kosher, and in the current one I still don't think he's made a spot for the Veg-O-Fortress.
Yeah but come on, that game displayed an entirely different level of canon-shattering than Chronicles. It actually featured Princess Sally, and a whole bunch of other characters taken straight out of Sonic universes that is obviously suposed to be completely separate from Sonic Teams. Of course, Chronicles featured robots called SWAT-bots, but they were probably intended more as homages to the SatAM baddies than to be the very same characters.

And there was actually very little in Chronicles that contradicted previous games, and the contaradictions that it did feature was admitingly minor things that only obsessed Sonic nerds (in other words, most people that frequent this site, including myself) would ever notice. The South Island thing is a good example. It's hardly a widely known fact where the original Sonic games took place. If asked about it, most people would probably just answer "Mobius?". You just cant expect the people at Bioware to know as much about the Sonic series as we fans do. And they obviously did do a whole lot of research on the series, as become evident from reading that... what was it called again? You know, that Poké-dex-like thingy you can read in the game? Whatever, that information database with character profiles and shit. And considering they probably got much of that info from the internet, there is no wonder some "fanon" unknowingly snuck into the game. Cause that's what i think, that most of the stuff with questionable canoninity we saw in Chronicles was actually stuff that the producers thought was canonical. Of course, the inclusion to SWAT-bots was and concious homage to SatAM. But Im talking about things such as calling Eggman "Ivo", refering to Tails as "Tails the Fox" or having Sonic being fond of Chilli dogs, things that is often considered, and believed to be, official/canonical by the fanbase, and hench tends to show up on places like wikipedia and such.

And besides, most of these things actually dont contaradict anything from previous games. I mean sure, Sonic liked chilli dogs in the game, but hey, they never specifically stated in any other games that he does'nt like chilli dogs.
At the same time it's not specifically stated that Sally & company couldn't exist in some area of Earth in the games. Sure their backstories would have to be different but I don't see that as an issue, I'm fine with assuming there's an explanation without needing one given.

IMO Spinball doesn't have anything on the level of Green Hill in SC. Also, robotization is a borderline canon issue with me, since it's generally accepted nowadays that Eggman stuffs animals into the robots, not make them into bots.

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Re: Ivo

Post by Delphine »

[/size][/size]
Green Gibbon! wrote:But I'm considering Sonic Chronicles non-canon for the time being.
Green Gibbon! wrote:Sonic Chronicles non-canon
Green Gibbon! wrote:canon

WHAT.

HAVE.

YOU.

DONE.

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Re: Ivo

Post by Yami CJMErl »

If it involves breaking the internet, I'm getting out of here before dragons start bursting out of any nearby outdated arcade machines.

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Esrever
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Re: Ivo

Post by Esrever »

Sonic has no canon. Sega has a hard enough time writing stories that don't contradict themselves, let alone other games.

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Re: Ivo

Post by Green Gibbon! »

Not that I'm a nerd or anything.

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Re: Ivo

Post by Team Mecha »

What else would people use internet message boards for?

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WW
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Re: Ivo

Post by WW »

There were quite a few things that bugged me about the game..

First of all, the colors of the emeralds are wrong. Not the first time it's happened, but in every Sonic Team-made game and every game since Sonic Adventure (except Battle, where they were all green) the colors have always been green, red, blue, yellow, cyan, magenta and white. Also known as the colors in a standard additive color model. Chronicles replaces the blue on with... a pale pink one. Although on the save screen it seems to be orange. But then again, the save screen showed a yellow emerald long before I had it. Was it so hard to figure out the correct colors? Minor nitpick however.

So many characters wanted Eggman dead in this game. They've had plenty of chances to kill him before, right? But they never have. The fact that they all joined forces to murder him in the intro made me feel rather uncomfortable for some reason.

Knuckles is the guardian of the Chaos Emeralds as well as the Master Emerald in this game. While other continuities have made him guardian of both, the games have made this idea somewhat contradictory, since having the Chaos Emeralds on Angel Island causes it to fall again (as seen in S3K and SA1).

In Chronicles, both the Master Emerald and green Chaos Emerald are the same size. How are we supposed to know which is which? Crazy!

Green Hill Zone is supposed to be on South Island. A small island which moves around in the ocean, according to Sonic 1. Not really a major point, but having it suddenly connected to Central City, the Sonic Earth parallel to San Fransisco/Washington DC is an odd choice.

Mystic Ruins is now a dark, dank and gloomy swamp. Very, very far from the lush rainforest Big and Froggy sang about in Lazy Days ~Livin' in Paradise~.

This was the thing that got at me the most towards the end of the game. Knuckles wants to get to Ix first, because Sonic "only sees the bad in Ix". He's worried that Sonic will kill Ix before Knuckles has a chance to reason with him. WHAT!? Isn't Knuckles the hot-head? Wasn't Sonic the only one willing to see good in Chaos? Wasn't Sonic the one who spent all that time trying to bring out the good in Shadow and Emerl?

In Sonic Adventure, Knuckles was completely ignorant of his history. He didn't know why he was guarding the Master Emerald, he didn't know anything about his past. Every time he was sent to the past, he didn't seem to realize that the other echidnas were his ancestors. And now he suddenly knows about his ancestors, their history, the Nocturnus Clan, its disappearance, and Nestor?

The characters expected Angel Island to float above the Mystic Ruins. I think the codex even mentions that Angel Island stays above the Mystic Ruins. Isn't Angel Island moving? Hence why it fell in the middle of the ocean in Sonic 3&K? And why it fell near the Mystic Ruins (not above) in Sonic Adventure?

While the shrine of the Master Emerald looks similar in Sonic Adventure and Sonic Advance 3, the one in Sonic Chronicles looks completely different.

When Eggman helps the heroes in Metropolis, I think I remember everyone saying how they never thought they would be working with Eggman... like that never happened before.

According to Sonic Adventure's japanese official strategy guide, the events with Chaos and Pachacamac took place 3000 years ago, not 4000 like the events with Emerl and the 4th Great Civilization.

If Emerl and the Gizoids were responsible for the Nocturnus Clan's disappearance, because they were so powerful that the clan got imprisoned in the Twilight Cage, and if Emerl was the most powerful of the Gizoids, then why in the world was he left on Sonic's world?

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Re: Ivo

Post by G.Silver »

Green Hill Zone is supposed to be on South Island.
I was thinking maybe there were other Green Hill Zones.

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Re: Ivo

Post by Frieza2000 »

WW wrote:Knuckles is the guardian of the Chaos Emeralds as well as the Master Emerald in this game. While other continuities have made him guardian of both, the games have made this idea somewhat contradictory, since having the Chaos Emeralds on Angel Island causes it to fall again (as seen in S3K and SA1).
Angel Island originally crashed because the Death Egg fell on it, and it stayed down once it took off because Eggman took the Master Emerald with him. SA1 is the only occasion the emeralds are (inconclusively) blamed for the island falling. The Master emerald may have willed the island back down to make Knuckles face Chaos or something like that. Another thought I had was that with Chaos and Tikal out of the emerald it would no longer raise the island for whatever reason, but we're probably supposed to assume Knuckles was right. There's also some precedence for him guarding Chaos Emeralds since there were a heretofore retconned set of emeralds on the island that "disappeared" when Eggman landed. They could be the super emeralds, though S&K seems to portray those as powered up versions of the Chaos Emeralds.
Sonic 3 manual: Guardian of the Floating Island (trans G.Silver) wrote:That day, as he always seemed to, he was making his patrol around the alter on the island. Protecting the 7 Chaos Emeralds who sleep and control the power of the "Pillar" is the mission he has been charged with.
...
In the blink of an eye, violent shaking occurred within the Chaos Emeralds. Then, as the shaking reached its climax, a "kiiiin" sound was heard along with a brilliant flash. The next thing Knuckles remembered was his own body, seeming to be lightly floating, and at that moment he was interrupted.

When Knuckles regained consciousness, he found his body thrown outside of the altar. He slowly got up, and what entered his eyes as he looked around was the Chaos Emerald altar--partially destroyed. In a flurry, Knuckles flew into the altar. However, in place of the emerald that should have been there, were fragments left of what had disappeared...
...
Some days later, Knuckles was partolling the altar of the island's seven Chaos Emeralds, but all traces of the Emeralds had vanished. While in his relentless investigation of the island, Knuckles encountered an unfamiliar man in the woods.

The man called himself Dr. Eggman, and already knew Knuckles was the guardian of the Chaos Emeralds. He said to Knuckles:

"I am a scientist who came here to stop (?) that egg. Uumu, since you are the Chaos Emeralds' guardian I knew I had to inform you. The truth is, there is an evil hedgehog named Sonic that has been interfering in my research, he is the one who has stolen this island's Chaos Emeralds."


The characters expected Angel Island to float above the Mystic Ruins. I think the codex even mentions that Angel Island stays above the Mystic Ruins. Isn't Angel Island moving? Hence why it fell in the middle of the ocean in Sonic 3&K? And why it fell near the Mystic Ruins (not above) in Sonic Adventure?
Yes, but it should be noted that it's a pretty big coincidence that in SA1 it fell so close to its place of origin. Maybe it doesn't move very far.

The rest of those are pretty discouraging, though. I know they're not targeting the super-nerd demographic, but they could at least get the colors right.

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Re: Ivo

Post by Team Mecha »

*Headdesk* I forgot about the 16 all blue chaos emeralds in Spinball. Okay, maybe that game does continuity issues. -_-

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Re: Ivo

Post by WW »

Oh, right! Thanks Freiza, it had been forever since I had last read that Sonic 3 translation, so it slipped my mind.

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Re: Ivo

Post by Baba O'Riley »

G.Silver wrote:
Green Hill Zone is supposed to be on South Island.
I was thinking maybe there were other Green Hill Zones.
It would make sense. They don't all look identical to one another, and there are bound to be green hills in more than one part of the world.

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Re: Ivo

Post by K2J »

Sonic explicitly treats GHZ in Chronicles like it's familiar territory. Assuming the zones in Battle, G Sonic and Sonic 1 are different, it's likely he's referring to the latter. Perhaps Central City is actually Spring Yard?

Nah, I'm not giving them that benefit of the doubt. At this point, given Unleashed's setting, I think it's better to just say that not all Sonic games take place in the same continuity. It's the same characters, but the Chaos Emeralds always have different powers, things are in different places, and so on and so forth.

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Re: Ivo

Post by Dasher »

Someone needs to draw a map.

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Re: Ivo

Post by Rob-Bert »

K2J wrote:Sonic explicitly treats GHZ in Chronicles like it's familiar territory. Assuming the zones in Battle, G Sonic and Sonic 1 are different, it's likely he's referring to the latter. Perhaps Central City is actually Spring Yard?
If that's the case, then maybe Holy Summit is the current version of Marble Zone?
Nah, I'm not giving them that benefit of the doubt. At this point, given Unleashed's setting, I think it's better to just say that not all Sonic games take place in the same continuity. It's the same characters, but the Chaos Emeralds always have different powers, things are in different places, and so on and so forth.
To have a seperate continuity for every game that comes out is a bit rediculous. A few weeks ago I tried to devise a world map of the entire Sonic world and concluded that his planet is bigger that ours. If remember correctly, it went something like this:

North America
Central City = San Francisco
Station Square = Los Angeles
Westopolis = Chicago
Night Babylon = Las Vegas
Empire City = New York City (obviously)
Prison Island = Alcatraz (unless it's supposed to be Guantanamo Bay)

South America
Mystic Ruins & Holy Summit = the upper half
Angel Island = the lower half that drifted into the sky
Newtrogic High = it's supposed to be near Angel Island, right?

Europe
Soleanna = Venice
Apatos = Greece
Spagonia = The rest of Italy along with Spain, France and England

Asia
Chu-nan = China (obviously)
Pumpkin Hill Zone (consists of the mountain range leading to the desert in SA2) = the mountain range between China and Russia
Abadat = Taiwan
Babylon = Babylon?

Africa
Shamar = Jordan
Sand Ocean = either the Sahara or the Mojave desert
Mazuri = the Savannah

So far we haven't seen Australia, but I would think it consists of South Island, West Side Island, Eggman Island, Flicky Island, and the so-called "Christmas Island" that Sonic was born on. I'd wager the Veg-O-Fortress was located out in the middle of the ocean somewhere, and I'll just go and assume the Little Planet and Never Lake are located on South Island, given how large it is already.

The only one I haven't deducted yet is Holoska, since it could either be Alaska, Antarctica, Greenland, or even Siberia.

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Re: Ivo

Post by big_smile »

The location of Green Hill Zone isn’t really an issue. South Island moves around the sea and could have simply docked itself to Central City. Although the map only shows the Green Hill part of the stage, this could have been done for the sake of convenience (Sonic Adventure 2 does the exact same thing).

Having said that, I did feel a sense of betrayal when playing the Chronicles rendition of the zone. The landscapes are too realistic for my liking and lack the imaginative set pieces of the original. The music is bland and feels severely out of place, as do the humans and the landing strip. Perhaps the biggest disappointment is that the animal friends have been replaced with generic wild animals. Seeing as Green Hill Zone is one of the most iconic aspects of the series, it’s a shame that Bioware were so loose in their interpretation of the stage.

Speaking of the animals friends, did anyone notice the cameos of Pocky, Oocky, Flicky and the new raccoon animal friend in Sonic Rush? I thought it was a neat touch and was disappointed that no one mentioned it on the forum.

^_^

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