Sonic level design, a discussion.

[Isuka]

SM64's camera is far from perfect, but it is in absolutely no way the worst I've seen. It's a little primitive, but still a milestone of the truly free tridimensional camera system.
On the other hand, SMG's lack of anything resembling competent camera control...

[Rob-Bert]

Is there one 3D game was can all collectively agree has the best camera system? A lot of them seem pretty barebones to me.

[Baba O'Riley]

3D cameras tend to make everyone sort of unhappy. I like SM64's camera, personally, and it's probably the only 3D platformer that hasn't betrayed me at one point or another due to wonky camera antics.

That being said, it's probably because I grew up with that game and nostalgia is probably making the C buttons seems like a good system.

[Tsuyoshi-kun]

The original Banjo had an okay camera as well, from what I recall. There are a couple of areas where it was wonky, but otherwise fine.

[Wombatwarlord777]

Thank goodness somebody bumped this topic up! Is it still possible to nominate threads for the Aybss? Because this thread has had some of the most intelligent discussions of the Sonic games that I have seen or heard anywhere.

I personally liked SM64 DS's free camera, solely because it made the linear segments of Rainbow Criuse and Brower's worlds one helluva lot easier if you switched to a near 2D view.

I know it's against popular opinion at these forums, but I personally enjoyed Sonic Advance 2. Besides the best visuals and music of all the Advance games, I felt that the level design and (too a lesser extent) the mechanics were well suited to deliever on the game's obvious priority: To get through the level as fast as possible in an authentically exhilarating experience. In particular, I loved how all the levels had numerous branching paths and how the levels each had extensive and unique gimmicks (Music Plant and Sky Canyon are excellent standouts in this category) to keep the experience unique each time. I'd love to see a new handheld Sonic game that keeps the basic "speedy" level design of Sonic Advance 2, while fixing it's glaring shortcomings (bottomless pits, cheap enemy placement, certain tedious level segments such as avoiding the crushing block in Sky Canyon, and excessively difficult on-the-run boss battles) to an even greater extent than they were fixed in Sonic Rush Adventure. I'd also like more tangible rewards for speeding through the levels (via time limits or racing other characters), like additional levels, characters, costumes, ect., not the shallow graphical enhancements of Southern Island that you recieved for beating the missions of SRA.

While I'd be pleased with such a handheld game, the console Sonic titles have always followed a more balanced approach to speed, platforming, and exploration, and I believe that they should continued to do so. That's why I'm not particularly excited about Sonic Unleashed, but that's another discussion for another thread.

[Rob-Bert]

Have you played any of the Genesis Sonic games? If you have, then I'm surprised you love Sonic Advance 2 for the reasons you do. It's a mere shell of what Sonic 3 was.

[Wombatwarlord777]

Yep, I've played completely through all the Genesis Games, as well as Sonic CD, and enjoyed them all. Come to think of it, part of the personal appeal of Advance 2 for me was how close it came to replicating the graphical and musical richness of the classics. Gameplay-wise though, yes, Sonic Advance 2 is a completely different animal. However, I don't find deviations from the Sonic formula to be deeply troubling as long as they're well developed, properly implemented, and make a game fun.

[DackAttac]

Thank goodness somebody bumped this topic up! Is it still possible to nominate threads for the Aybss? Because this thread has had some of the most intelligent discussions of the Sonic games that I have seen or heard anywhere.

Have you read any of the topics in the Abyss?

[Wombatwarlord777]

Yeh... I clearly misinterpreted it's purpose though...

[Oompa Star]

If anything, this should've been moved to the abyss. That, or Booger Dog.

[Isuka]

I'd go with the one started because of my own incredible retardedness, but Booger Dog was really funny too.
Pop's high time was A·C·E.

[Isuka]

On Sonic Advance 2, it suddenly came to my mind that it could have been a great game if it displayed on a good screen with a decent graphical resolution so you'd be able to actually see what's ahead, like a really fast Jazz Jackrabit 2.



That, and fix some unfair enemy placement. They wouldn't even have to touch the bottomless pits or alter the stages' layout.

[DackAttac]

Jesus. Looking at that screen, I'm realizing how much that would be cropped if it were Sonic Advance. My first complaint about the series was that it felt claustrophobic, but I never considered how much of a role the screen size/resolution played... Sonic Rush's dual screen freed things up vertically, but the X axis remains cramped. I wonder how many of the enemies we've all been claiming are "unfairly placed" just seemed that way because we had about 70% less time to see it coming?

[Baba O'Riley]

That's an interesting argument. But ultimately, can better overall playability compensate for shit design?

[FlashTHD]

That's an interesting argument. But ultimately, can better overall playability compensate for shit design?

Put me down for "no". Yay, we can see more of the level! Yay, we can see more of how eerily empty Leaf Forest is!

(see also: that shitty new Sonic Nexus demo, which evokes some nasty Leaf Forest vibes of its' own)

[Rob-Bert]

Try looking at an offical map of Leaf Forest. It's about 82% flat ground with nothing else on it.

[Xyton]

Sonic Rush's dual screen freed things up vertically, but the X axis remains cramped.

Heh. Obvious control issues aside, I wonder how a Sonic Rush wherein you held the DS sideways would work....

[Isuka]

Jesus. Looking at that screen, I'm realizing how much that would be cropped if it were Sonic Advance.

Taking into account that the GBA's screen resolution is 240 × 160 pixels, well...



It certainly does hamper the gameplay considerably.

[Baba O'Riley]

Jesus. Looking at that screen, I'm realizing how much that would be cropped if it were Sonic Advance.

Taking into account that the GBA's screen resolution is 240 × 160 pixels, well...



It certainly does hamper the gameplay considerably.

Well, to be fair, Jazz Jackrabbit 2 was designed for much larger screens.

[DackAttac]

So was Sonic. That's kind of my point. The Advance series, as noble an attempt to "recapture the 2D magic" as they were, probably wouldn't even work if they had the knack to pull it off just because your field of vision is so much more limited than what you're used to.

[Isuka]

Well, to be fair, Jazz Jackrabbit 2 was designed for much larger screens.

Actually, if I remember correctly, Jazz 2 could run at 320 × 200. It wasn't a nice experience, but it was an option in the game's original design.

[Baba O'Riley]

Well, to be fair, Jazz Jackrabbit 2 was designed for much larger screens.

Actually, if I remember correctly, Jazz 2 could run at 320 × 200. It wasn't a nice experience, but it was an option in the game's original design.

Oh, I wasn't aware of that. I learned something new today.

But still, the gameplay is optimized for larger screens. It's sort of like widescreen vs. fullscreen on DVDs. Once you start fucking with the aspect ratio, the original intent of the artist is lost. Simply copying the stages from Sonic Advance into a larger screen is just going to result in a lot of empty space, because most of the action is clustered together to fit in the small screen.

[DackAttac]

But Sonic moves at a speed that only makes sense on a larger screen. Even if the level designs were done properly, you would still barrel into enemies you couldn't see in time.

[Baba O'Riley]

But Sonic moves at a speed that only makes sense on a larger screen. Even if the level designs were done properly, you would still barrel into enemies you couldn't see in time.

Good thing that 3D games, with their relatively expansive view, prevent cheap deaths.

There are always going to be flaws in the way a game is designed, and while I am definitely not a fan of Sonic Advance, I don't think that it's impossible to do Sonic on the small screen.

[DackAttac]

You're right. It doesn't fix everything; it therefore must not have any bearing on anything.

Maybe it's not impossible, but you'd have to make sure Sonic's momentum was gone before placing an enemy, since you have lower reaction time. I think some of the Game Gear games did an OK job in that department.