What Sonic game is this?

[FlashTHD]

Rocket had it right (initially) in that a very thick, broad line needs to be drawn between what's flat bad and what's tolerable. Sonic 06 is what i'd call bad. Heroes and Shadow don't come close to crossing to that side of the line. I'm not calling them good by any stretch, i'm calling them decent games that can be fun when they're not exerting the weight of their worst flaws upon you all at once. In fact I take no shame in admitting that Shadow possibly plays better than Heroes. As I explained before it takes longer for it to wear out on me in return plays than Heroes.

Meanwhile, please tell me, how in god's name can -anybody- call Sonic R enjoyable, straight-faced? I knew after the 30-45 minutes it took me to beat the whole thing - the first time, in one sitting - that it's a sad excuse for a game period. Nothing you do in this game comes with any sense of satisfaction. None. (edit: well, maybe unlocking the other characters was interesting.) Whatever fun there is, I guess comes from Yasuhara's big open level designs, and the game was supposedly decried for not having them to being with. So I have no sympathy for it.

(Also activating Chaos Control would only lead to you flying past your targets most of the time, great game design.)

How about not using it mindlessly then?

[Crazy Penguin]

The open tracks were an interesting idea but they left them open to one big obvious flaw - there's no reason to use any route other than the shortest in a competitive race.

The hidden tokens and Chaos Emeralds were just a one-time dealy to unlock the hidden characters, once they were out of the way the whole thing became redundant. Speaking of hidden characters, that was another flaw - there was no reason to play as anyone other than the fastest character available. The special abilities offered up no new routes, the only thing that changed was maybe you'd have to glide or fly or jump instead of hovering over water. Amy's boost and Eggman and Egg Robo's missiles were almost completely ineffective. It's not even like the faster characters were harder to handle than the slower ones, or that characters had different weights.

The whole game was unbalanced from top to bottom.

[Esrever]

Yeah... collecting all the tokens/emeralds was kind of fun. I mean, I liked that part enough to... you know... actually DO it.

But still, who can defend this game? The collecting provides an hour or two of enjoyment, but the actual RACING is totally broken... poor-controlling and totally unbalanced characters, atrocious computer AI and a massive track library of, er, five.

[RocketPunch]

If there's one thing to take from Sonic R it's the open tracks. No, they didn't really work in practice, but if Sega expanded on that concept for the subsequent games, it could've avoided some of the linearity problems we got in SA, SA2, and so on.

[Isuka]

I'm not sure about how that would work, the courses were designed as really big flat squares filled with terrain accidents of variable degree, as a platformer it probably wouldn't have worked the way anyone expects (that is, without the bottomless pits but still large and fun as any Sonic Adventure). Though a multi-layered design based on that premise may have resulted in an interesting game... as probably would have been X-treme.

It still boggles me, the similarities between Sonic X-treme's and Super Mario Galaxy's concepts, it's almost mystifying. It could have resulted in either a brilliant game crippled because of the Saturn's limitations, or just a forgettable experiment, but it did look neat.

[G.Silver]

I really liked it, and it was entirely due to the stage design. After finding all the emeralds and coins, I'd also challenge myself to getting all the coins and emeralds in one run, which took a few tries to get down (actually I don't remember if I was really able to do it all, at least with still getting first place). With that sort of added personal challenge I had a really good time with it. Also, I paid $20 for it.

[P.P.A.]

Most of the fun I had with Sonic R was when I started TAing the game and exploring the open levels for the quickest route. It was very satisfying to keep finding new shortcuts and mastering the controls. I admit that once the "perfect" route was known, the game became a bit tedious to play. (Especially Radical City, which was totally broken in the end due to the glitch that allows you tobreak out of bounds and get insane lap times like 2 seconds something, but I have to blame that on myself.)

(Also activating Chaos Control would only lead to you flying past your targets most of the time, great game design.)

How about not using it mindlessly then?

Of course I didn't use it under those circumstances (except for a few levels where it can be used to quickly cover long distances without any goals). I just say that implementing a feature into a game and then making it totally useless for most of the time is stupid.

[Shadow Hog]

What out-of-bounds glitch is this? I only know of two; one in Resort Island that I can consistently abuse, and one in that ruins level that only happened to me once by chance.

[P.P.A.]

What out-of-bounds glitch is this? I only know of two; one in Resort Island that I can consistently abuse, and one in that ruins level that only happened to me once by chance.

Here is a video of it: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=XSGZUlfB8Es (Also works the normal way round.)
You mean the Regal Ruin glitches where you hit the slope behind the goal at a certain angle that's only useful in Reverse, right?
And wait, the Resort Island one can be used for fast times? :O

[Hybrid]

The thing that always bothered me about Sonic R is that every character you're not playing as is horribly nerfed in terms of abilities. If you play as Super Sonic, for example, you hold up at the start of the race, immediately accelerate ahead of everyone, and then your incredible top speed means you probably wont see them again for the rest of the race (shortcuts are overkill). Play as Egg Robo, and Super Sonic will probably bump into you right at the start, but that bump probably knocks you ever-so-slightly ahead (it did with me every time I tried it this morning) and the super-powered hedgehog just never catches up, in fact he usually stays bunched with Metal Sonic and Knuckles for half the race before pulling into clear second for the latter half. The same goes for the "basic" characters. I selected Eggman and held nothing but "up" at the start of the race, and without even taking a single shortcut, I ended up finishing an easy first. Its like every other character slows to a crawl when you're competing against them. Your characters abilities and overall stats rarely seem to matter in the end.

Also, most tracks are broken in some way. Radical City, has two shortcuts that the AI simply doesn't take (the lower road near the start, and the pinball area) that slash the time it takes to complete a lap and makes actually racing on that track redundant unless you self-impose some limitations on which route you take. Regal Ruin has so much shit going on, but still has a lot of shortcuts that make the regular route a chore. Not to mention it has that one part that's like an S bend except each "bend" is a sharp 180 degree turn that, as far as I know, can't be taken smoothly. The alternative is a 20 Ring door which leads to a Chaos Emerald and a double loop; I ran out of momentum on said loop and got stuck in the running animation with no real way to pick up speed. I eventually got out and still ended up coming second. Reactive Factory has that skip near the spring which cuts off a lot of the track (although if memory serves, the AI sometimes uses that one!) but has plenty of other shortcuts which put you a good deal ahead. The only real stage that offers any competitive value against the AI is Radiant Emerald, simply because the camera sucks so you're often bumping into walls, and there's no shortcuts you can take that the AI doesn't take as well (with better turning). Speaking of which, has anyone else ever noticed that little bit of track that juts off from the main path and goes absolutely nowhere? Its just a dead end, and you have to actually turn around to get to it. I don't know what the hell its for.

Still, Sonic R is fun when you're younger and collecting Coin/Emeralds is actually a bit of a challenge. Unlocking characters, especially before getting Super Sonic, is a lot of fun because it really is the only time you're at a complete disadvantage. Still, the game needed more tracks and more interesting character diversity to be really entertaining after that initial collect-a-thon.

[Esrever]

I think what we're really getting at here is that Sonic R would have been better without that "R" part.

[Arcade]

Sonic the Fighters was a good idea in a bad hardware...

[Shadow Hog]

Speaking of 3D fangames, I'd say this little baby blows Sonic GL out of the water - and it's only an engine test with the basic physics programmed in, no rings, springs or enemies.

Download it and spread the word, I say. Maybe this making a big enough splash will be enough to convince people that the entire 3D Sonic formula needs reworking - and this is more like what it should be.

[Black Rook]

Sonic the Fighters was a good idea in a bad hardware...

Sonic the Fighters was a novelty game that should never be taken seriously. Honestly, if you're going to consider Sonic the Fighters among your "five worst" games, you should in all seriousness put Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car on there, too.

[Mep]

Speaking of 3D fangames, I'd say this little baby blows Sonic GL out of the water - and it's only an engine test with the basic physics programmed in, no rings, springs or enemies.

Download it and spread the word, I say. Maybe this making a big enough splash will be enough to convince people that the entire 3D Sonic formula needs reworking - and this is more like what it should be.

Oh my god! Damizean is starting to scare me with his fancy physics programming. There was already a strong force when he released his 2D 360 engine, but its practically unstoppable with the community pitching in. How much longer until its not even worth it for Sonic Team to try anymore?

[Arcade]

Sonic the Fighters was a good idea in a bad hardware...

Sonic the Fighters was a novelty game that should never be taken seriously. Honestly, if you're going to consider Sonic the Fighters among your "five worst" games, you should in all seriousness put Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car on there, too.

I never said Sonic the Fighters should be in the worst 5 Sonic games list, I liked it, but no one knew how to make 3D look cool in the Saturn until Nights, and back then the console was almost death.

[Isuka]

... Uh, okay... that just left me without a word.
I may blather about foreseeing how the stages would probably be too open-ended, without much progression and pretty much as I thought a Sonic R-based platformer would be, but the fact that all that amazing shit came from a fan-made physics test, is just mesmerizing.

I just though that context-sensitive actions would fix almost any problems in physics and controls in a Sonic game like this one. Like, you see you'll fly off the ramp and end up falling to your doom, just press a button to make Sonic hold ground and stand atop the ramp. And that's just one plausible use for it.

[Shadow Hog]

Hey, if you liked it, Digg it!

Actually, on a less spammy note, something here's bothered me... namely, the comments there. Somehow some prick declares that Sonic should remain 2D and ONLY 2D, despite this 3D test being effing amazing, and my retort has consistently remained 1 Digg below his, implying that the general public agrees... Honestly, the only reason people think he only belongs in 2D is because the 3D games have been stinkers, and they weren't stinkers inherently because of their being 3D - they were stinkers for a wider variety of flaws, like horrid controls, awful dialogue, ridiculous premises (Shadow with guns, SonicXElise), glitches galore, and just being flat-out unplayable. I still think that Sonic games CAN be done in 3D and live up to the classics, and I think this engine comes the closest I've ever seen anything to pulling it off, even without anything other than the basic physics of running around.

All things considered, where did this retarded sentiment begin? Right now I'm thinking of 1Up and a certain Jeremy "THE SERIES IS NOT FAST ENOUGH, SHOULD ONLY BE 2D AND JUMPED THE SHARK WITH SONIC 3" Parish...

[Mep]

They might just not be digging how you said the 3D games are flat-out crap, otherwise they would have upped the other guy.

Anyways, I'm going to have to say its people like Jeremy Parrish who came in and loved Sonic 2 and were disappointed because Sonic 3 didn't have enough speed segments, or because they sucked at it. I know a friend who just can't seem to grasp the momentum-based gameplay and just never really gains speed in S3K, so he finds it "slower" and "clunkier" somehow. I have no idea why anybody could hate Sonic Adventure besides the fishing and shooting segments, or because they suck at it too.

[Isuka]

What's more, who cares about what people diggs or diggs not?
I liked those shooting segments with E-102 "Gamma", though Amy's whopping 3 stages were a piece of sluggish 3D crap.

[Locit]

It's not much to look at, but that demo is pretty fun! Sonic sort of has a good weight to him, and when he rockets into the air while still running it feels the tiniest bit reminiscent of the old Genesis titles. I like the spin dash mechanic as well- making it totally halt Sonic's movement is a good way to keep it from acting as it did in SA, and using it for long jumps is pretty fun! The loops could use a little work, as it's pretty easy to run right out of them partway through.

If they get the level design right (long shot for any Sonic game) and tighten up the animations and camera it could make for a really enjoyable game!

[P.P.A.]

That is quite amazing. Now if the camera stays fixed behind Sonic and they switch the Sonic 2 spindash for the Sonic CD one and the peelout, I'm really looking forward to a final release of this. The physics really do feel like the old games. :o

[cjmcray]

In fact I take no shame in admitting that Shadow possibly plays better than Heroes.

heh.

ha ha.

hehe.

ahahaha

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

AHAHA

AHAHA

haaaaa...

oh wait, youre serious.

[Forza Johnman]

In fact I take no shame in admitting that Shadow possibly plays better than Heroes.

*Possible attempt at sarcasm.*

I agree with Flash here. At least, when comparing the Gamecube versions of the two games together, Shadow did play better. They at least fixed the Light Dash with Shadow, which was, looking back, possibly through very rose tinted spectacles, the one thing that really ruined Heroes for me.

[DackAttac]

Agreed. I was actually happy with Shadow when I got through Westopolis, before I realized the level design was going to get worse, not improve. The only flaw the controls introduced was that Shadow handled like he was on ice skates (and to some extent, he was), but that actually worked with the speedy segments. In fact, there are really only two places where that pissed me off, both in one of the indistinguishable "cyberspace is tangible!!1" levels. One where you had to position yourself under a ground-parallel pole and jump to grab hold of it and ride it up (getting myself directly under it was the bitch) and one where you had to shoot out blocks from a small moving platform.

Truth be told, I'm remembering that one mission where you have to gun down Air Force One, and even though I never completed it (I chickenshitted out with the neutral mission after a few failures and then went evil on my last chance to get the last ending), I look back on that one level as fun, and there were probably a few more that got me to suffer through getting to the final ending. Shadow had some complete failures as a game, yes, but Heroes never peaked that high.