What Sonic game is this?

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Rolken
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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by Rolken »

Dasher wrote:And Sonic was "Slow" in Labyrinth because Eggman swithched his shoes with Heavy Shoes, man! people never care about Sonic's story.
This is the worst kind of justification for poor gameplay mechanics, and one that comes up a lot. If a new Sonic game was called "Robotnik's Glitchy Mess Fest" and involved Eggman periodically turning 'up' on the controller into 'down', spinning the camera around and pushing Sonic through solid floors, it wouldn't be excusable as 'story', it'd just be stupid. The same applies to Labyrinth.

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by Frieza2000 »

Sounds like a good thread for the poll board to me.

Strictly in terms of gameplay, ignoring story, atmosphere, and all that good stuff that really define a Sonic game:

Worst:
1) Sonic's Schoolhouse
2) Sonic Drift
3) Chaotix
4) Tails and the Music Maker
5) Sonic the Hedgehog Gameworld
6) Sonic Riders
7) G Sonic
8) Sonic Pinball Party

Chaotix might be a controversial choice, but without the funky settings it's really just several hours of the most tedious platforming I've ever seen. The special stages are nowhere near good enough to make up for it.

But in terms of which ones I hate the most overall:

1) Sonic 2k6
2) Shadow
3) Sonic Riders
4) Sonic Battle
5) Sonic Heroes
6) Sonic Pinball Party
7) Sonic Advance 2

I was going to put Riders in first place because its whole attitude makes me ill in a way even Shadow didn't, but it was a small little spinoff with mildly enjoyable mission challanges and quirky fanservice levels. Shadow fares better than 2k6 despite it's far more atrocious story (or lack thereof) both because the almost parodic absurdity is still amusing and because the gameplay was strangely enjoyable. Shredding through hundreds of enemies is more fun with a minigun than the homing attack. Rivals would probably appear on this list too, but that's where I drew the line in my completist quest.

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Isuka
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Post by Isuka »

So, no one was exposed to Shuffle? Or maybe it actually was somehow enjoyable?

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by Ritz »

Honestly, what's the deal with Shuffle? It's no Mario Party killer, to be sure, but I felt it was a solid party game on it's own merits- story, music and art direction weren't all that bad, either. I had fun with it. I might even replay it one of these days.

Also, no joke: Onion-head Void's jaundiced eyes gave me nightmares. Am I a cake boy, or what?

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Mep
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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by Mep »

I honestly enjoyed Shuffle as a kid, but going back to replay it was a horrible idea. I think back then I was too busy jumping around the couch watching Sonic do an overly long attack sequence to care how boring it was. It doesn't kill the mood as much when you have friends to talk to, especially during loading times, but its a very unsatisfying experience.

Anyways, I'm glad you guys started talking about your favorite Genesis games and all. I haven't seen them discussed here in a long while, and I was honestly thinking about digging up an old topic. Hopefully I'll have some comments to add later on. Maybe...

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by DackAttac »

Sonic Drift 1? I mean, it was just pretty flat-out lazy. Its sequel was a fine GG racing game, though.

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by P.P.A. »

Wow, this list is so wrong. The only thing I really agree with is Sonic CD on rank 1. The moves, stylish graphics and excellent music only add to the perfect controls, the huge and complex (some would say confusing), yet still completable fast levels and the very unique time-travel feature.
Sonic R on the last place however I cannot understand at all. The game was fun, the music was great and the courses, albeit few, were very well designed with a lot of shortcuts and routes. Also I find it both amusing and depressing how many people complain about the game's music, yet fail to realize that they can turn the vocals off in the options menu if they don't like it.There would be a lot of better (or worse) choices for the last place - Shuffle, Heroes, Shadow, Blast, 3D: Flickies' Island...
Sonic Adventure I was never too fond of. While it's not really a bad game, it neither is such a great one - Sonic's, Tails' and Gamma's stages, even though not optimal, are often fun but Knuckles, Amy and Big (lolfishing) really pull it down. The jerky camera, somewhat unnecessary Adventure Fields and often problematic controls aren't a stroke of genius either. Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic R, and Sonic 06 (if finished) could easily do better than it.

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by BlazeHedgehog »

Shadow Hog wrote:Sonic GL. Fangame that ultimately wound up cancelled, but inspired awe in the minds of the many, many idiots in the fandom who didn't realize how it encapsulated everything that was wrong with the 3D Sonic games.

Honestly, if I had to pick a fangame to toss in there, there were far, far better picks to make. Retro Sonic. Sonic XG. Sonic Robo Blast 2. Blaze's 2K6 spinoff. I could go on.

And Sonic R was actually pretty damn fun. Shadow should've been #1. Once again, Screw Attack's "Top 10" list and I don't get along...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s3Up4_2PBk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCM3zife3Yw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8SuCZqu6zY

I don't really see what's wrong with Sonic GL. The only problems I really see are the fact that it never moved beyond the one tech demo level and that... I guess maybe if you're a Classic Sonic purist you'd be a little miffed it seems to take after the "New Sonic" gameplay style.

Maybe I should feel honored you'd pick my game over Sonic GL. I really should get around to seeing if my HDD is dead or not so I can finish the final version of that I was planning.

And since everybody else uses these threads to post their lists:

Best
#1 - Sonic 3 & Knuckles
#2 - Sonic the Hedgehog 2
#3 - Sonic Rush Adventure
#4 - Sonic Adventure
#5 - Sonic the Hedgehog (1991)

Worst
#1 - Sonic Labyrinth
#2 - Sonic the Hedgehog (2006)
#3 - Sonic Drift
#4 - Sonic 3D Blast
#5 - Sonic Spinball

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Bo
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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by Bo »

Labyrinth was entertaining in a limited sense, but it was definitely not "Sonic game."

I also enjoyed G Sonic quite a bit, but I can see why it inspires animosity.

Shuffle, however, I hated very thoroughly. It was the first Sonic game I didn't finish and the next to last one I bought.

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by Omni Hunter »

The way I see it is pretty much as using a game as a template, in this case I'd say the Genesis Sonic the Hedgehog would be the most simple, bog-standard template while verything that follows is adapted in some way to either fit in with changes to times, gameplay, technology (moving to "true" 3d) or whatever else. Whether the changes are gimmicky, ill concieved or useful, they still define the game that they are in, if I play Sonic 1 I don't expect a "rush guage" in the same way that I don't expect spinning, physics and momentum to define most of the gameplay in Sonic Rush.

I guess in the gameplay respect, I'd have to have Sonic 1 as my definitive game though, sometimes the most simple forula is the most addictive, it's easier to pick up for the first time and after a game over you can easilly pick it back up.

As for styles, they change with every single game, but I'm more comfortable with Sonic 2, it's got that cartoony feeling like the original had but it's not overly simple.

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by Mep »

P.P.A. wrote:Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic R, and Sonic 06 (if finished) could easily do better than it.
Prepare to be disagreed with a lot. Maybe.

And am I the only one who though the controls for Sonic Adventure were absolutely perfect? I mean they were hard to learn, but just so incredibly slick and natural. Though you may have trouble traveling down the winding roads of WIndy Valley, it was still fun. It was also a great way to implement those steering segments where you collect rings on walls/ceilings, which they mostly replaced with those automated segments in SA2 and to a lesser extent in Next-gen Sonic.

In regards to art style I really love Sonic CD, but I have not yet come to terms with my "Top 5" list.
BlazeHedgehog wrote:I don't really see what's wrong with Sonic GL. The only problems I really see are the fact that it never moved beyond the one tech demo level and that... I guess maybe if you're a Classic Sonic purist you'd be a little miffed it seems to take after the "New Sonic" gameplay style.
If anything, I was surprised as to how many people hailed it as "Sonic's Ultimate Comeback." I don't see why they decide to highly praise whats just a slightly less broken reincarnation of those high-speed segments in Sonic Next-gen. I guess the 3D graphics were real pretty though, but just because it actually came from a fangame developer doesn't mean it'll cure cancer.

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by Jack Bz »

Mep wrote:And am I the only one who though the controls for Sonic Adventure were absolutely perfect?
Ditto (well, for Sonic's segments at least). I wish they'd make the spin dash like Sonic Adventure again, it was perfect. Also, things like his running animation were also perfect I'd say.

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by Ritz »

The funny thing about Sonic GL is that it was cancelled because the creator "Didn't want to compete with the PC version of Sonic the Hedgehog", or something to that effect. Not only is the PC version of StH essentially nonexistant at this point, but if he truly perceived it as being a threat to his game, then it probably wasn't worth playing in the first place, don't you think?

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by Shadow Hog »

Basically, what struck me about Sonic GL was that it essentially strived to be Adventure's platforming at the speeds of 2K6's mach-speed segments, all the while taking every page out of Sonic Team's "how to make levels crappy" book with sharp turns to mess up the pace and bottomless pits galore, all the while never doing anything USEFUL with all that speed he was getting (remember when Sonic games were momentum-based? Why doesn't anyone else?). In other words, it took every flaw that the latest Sonic games have and ran with them. Didn't even try to fix them any. And this is supposed to be the best Sonic fangame ever? Don't make me laugh.

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by BlazeHedgehog »

But the only flaws I had with the new Sonic games were the fact that they were so scripted. All the fastest and coolest moments in them were moments you had no control over. Sonic GL had an opportunity to avoid that. Even the test level looked like it was doing more with the gameplay flow than the other 3D Sonics were.

And, above all, it looked like the controls were a lot more solid, too. What bugged me about Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic 2k6 is how twitchy the analog stick sensitivity was. Sonicteam seemed to think that either too sensitive (SA2, Sonic 2k6) or not sensitive enough (Sonic Heroes, Shadow) were the way to go. They never really seemed to find that comfortable middleground (even SA1 was kind of twitchy, though less than SA2).

But that could just be because the Sonic GL guy made his game and knew the controls better than we did. Who knows.

But I was mainly excited about it because I was hoping it'd be like a 3D Sonic game like SA or SA2, but more in line with what I wanted from those games. After all, it's easier to contact the Sonic GL guy than it is to talk to say, Takashi Iizuka. It's easier to walk up and go "No, this is what the 3D Sonic games did wrong, don't do that." with a better chance he'll listen.

tldr: I wasn't so much excited for what Sonic GL was, as much as I was excited for what it could have eventually been.

As for momentum, I like to think games like Sonic Adventure 2 still work off the momentum concept - just implemented differently. The bonus scoring system seems to be about keeping a momentum of cool/flashy moves. The Sonic Rush games (especially SRA) continue this - the more tricks and enemies you can destroy in rapid succession, the more boost you are rewarded, and as a result, the faster you can run.

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by P.P.A. »

Jack Bz wrote: I wish they'd make the spin dash like Sonic Adventure again, it was perfect. Also, things like his running animation were also perfect I'd say.
I didn't like SA's spindash at all - you could just use it while running and gain great speed simply by tapping the action button all the time. My favourite 3D spindash would be Shadow the Hedgehog's (the only good thing about the game). You had to stand still to use it, and how fast it went was dependant on how long you charge it. Makes sense.
Yet I fully agree on the running animation thing.

Not making my own top list because I'd just get "best" and "personal favourite" mixed up. :(
Except Sonic CD, which is really the best, even from an objective view of mine.

As for worst, my rankings would be:
1.- Sonic Shuffle
2.- Sonic Heroes
3.- G Sonic/Sonic Blast
4.- Sonic Spinball
5.- Sonic 3D Flickies' Island/Blast

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by Jack Bz »

The spin dash in Shadow was pretty useless, though. It may be more along the classic games route (standing still and charging) but you never needed to use it as Shadow could accelerate fast enough by skating. The SA spin dash was brilliant, it provided the ability to do awesome things like run up walls and just instantly accelerate. So basically it gave a great sense of speed.

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by Mep »

While you can spam spindash over and over, you'll only reach top speed by charging it. You probably already knew this, but its the only way to take certain shortcuts. So charging still has its uses, its much faster to just charge once even if though you can gain speed easy if you just tap it. Even when just running on the ground, tapping spindash really only has its uses for me when I'm killing enemies.

I also loved the things you could do with it. I just discovered today that if you spindash off the blue ramp on the roof of Twinkle Park, you can hit the opposite wall at such an angle that you'll be able to run on it. You can even run upside-down on the bottom of the pathway above you! You'd think that most 360 segments would be automated, or at least have a slope for you to run up. I found that amazing for some reason...

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by RocketPunch »

I can't quite put my finger on why that is, but I think it has something to do with the mood conveyed in the stage visuals and music. There was a raw edge, a quite bizarre one, that hasn't quite been recaptured since.
Never truer words spoken about the original. But I have to disagree with what you said about its Special Stages having more longevity than any of the others. For me, nothing tops 3&K's "Get Blue Spheres."

I can't quite describe the raw edge you referred to either, but I know exactly what you mean. The vibrant colors, the surreal Art Deco-inspired visuals, and the random design elements (totem poles in the Green Hill Zone for instance) all came together to truly capture the essence of Sonic's world. It's as if the artists who created them literally sat down and sought to answer the question "Well, where would a blue supersonic hedgehog and an egg-shaped mad scientist hang out?"

Come Sonic 2 we'd be working with nearly twice as many levels as the first, which would eventually lead to the introduction of new design schemes that were significantly less unique and more shallow (see Hill Top Zone). Meanwhile, Sonic 3 & Knuckles had its own style going for it, basically creating a unique hybrid of real world settings and Sonic-isms. And lastly, Sonic CD, in my experience, was like Sonic 1 on acid.

It's kind of upsetting that nearly all the zones in recent Sonic games have become watered down parodies of the originals, but level design schemes are typically the least of my worries nowadays.

And back on topic...

How are we judging games for these Best and Worst lists? I mean, comparing Shuffle to 3D Blast is like comparing apples to oranges. Perhaps we should judge them by how good they should have been for what they were as opposed to personal preferences? As boring as Sonic Shuffle was, it's still a mediocre party game, which isn't as bad as a god-awful platforming game like G Sonic. And then you've got Sonic 360 which was unfinished. As ludicrous as Sonic Labyrinth was, it was still a complete game, which puts it above 360 in my book.

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by Tsuyoshi-kun »

I'm surprised how few people here have mentioned the 8-bit version of Sonic 2 among their least favorite games. I've only managed to beat that thing for real once in my life, and never again after that. Bad level design, bad music, and bad controls. The hang glide sequence in the second zone ranks among my least favorite things in Sonic history. It's also the only Sonic game I've ever played where I couldn't get the level select to work. The only three Sonic games to me remotely as bad as it were Sonic '06, Sonic Shuffle, and G Sonic. Everything else is at least playable, if not still bad (Sonic Drift).

My top 5, obviously, are the core Mega Drive games (1, 2, 3 and Knuckles), Sonic CD, and Sonic Adventure, with CD being my personal favorite, with Sonic 3 & Knuckles second, the original in third, 2 in fourth, and Adventure in fifth. I also like Sonic Rush and both Sonic and Tails games, and I'm one of the very few people here who actually enjoyed Heroes. I never played Shadow the Hedgehog, and I think I dodged a bullet for doing so. I also don't like Sonic Adventure 2 much, mainly for its "go this way or else" pathways, the god-awful Tails levels, and for introducing the shitty grade system seen in nearly every 3-D Sonic game since then.

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by P.P.A. »

RocketPunch wrote: Never truer words spoken about the original. But I have to disagree with what you said about its Special Stages having more longevity than any of the others. For me, nothing tops 3&K's "Get Blue Spheres."
Ugh, those make me sick. To quote Tails, "MY HEAD'S SPINNING". Special Stages I'd say are best in Sonic CD: Not only because I like Mode-7-like effects, but also because you can pick the order of the UFOs you want to take out which not only makes them interesting for TAing but also adds some freedom. Sonic 1 would be second - they win simply because of how totally surreal they are.
Come Sonic 2 we'd be working with nearly twice as many levels as the first, which would eventually lead to the introduction of new design schemes that were significantly less unique and more shallow (see Hill Top Zone). Meanwhile, Sonic 3 & Knuckles had its own style going for it, basically creating a unique hybrid of real world settings and Sonic-isms. And lastly, Sonic CD, in my experience, was like Sonic 1 on acid.
Quoted for truth.

Also I am a bit undecided which one is worse, Shadow or Heroes. Visually, the latter is infinitely superior - the colours are vibrant and all the levels look Sonic-ish. As opposed to Shadow's grey, green, black and red boredom. However while Shadow's level design is still bad, I find it overall a bit less annoying than Heroes. Controls are utterly horrible in both, yet Shadow is a bit more predictable. And oh god they killed the homing attack. D:
But the main problem Heroes has would be the simply stupid teamwork crap, and the fact the game forces you to switch characters and stuff which slows down the game a lot. And why is there no spindash?! The leve-up system was also stupid and even more so the fact that enemies need to be hit multiple times before they die.
Shadow had the guns - but while the game also encourages the usage of them but depending on what goal you aimed for you often could also beat the level without them (although it'd often take longer). And blowing up your surroundings with a fat cannon really is fun at times. A far worse flaw I consider the mission design. Racing to the goal ring is fun in some levels, but having to destroy over 9000 enemies on the go, activating switches, finding hidden shit and whatnotever is just stupid. (Also activating Chaos Control would only lead to you flying past your targets most of the time, great game design.)
So I guess they're about equally bad.
Tsuyoshi-kun wrote:I never played Shadow the Hedgehog, and I think I dodged a bullet for doing so.
I see what you did there.

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by RocketPunch »

Also I am a bit undecided which one is worse, Shadow or Heroes. Visually, the latter is infinitely superior - the colours are vibrant and all the levels look Sonic-ish. As opposed to Shadow's grey, green, black and red boredom. However while Shadow's level design is still bad, I find it overall a bit less annoying than Heroes. Controls are utterly horrible in both, yet Shadow is a bit more predictable. And oh god they killed the homing attack. D:
Four years later I can comfortably admit that Heroes wasn't that bad. I'll just always be embittered toward the relentless hype that preceded its release (OMG the Chaotix! OMG classic levels! OMG Shadow's story!...) and its total failure to deliver. Having to slow down and hit enemies more than once was frustrating, in addition to the voices, pits, and boss battles, but the real killer for me was having to replay the entire game THREE MORE TIMES in order to properly complete it. And since the gameplay for all four teams was identical, it was essentially forced replay value.

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by Shadow Hog »

Yeah, while it was admittedly the beginning of the end, it wasn't until Shadow came out that it was wildly apparent that they'd finally jumped the shark. Heroes actually had quite a few redeeming values to it... good level concepts, honest-to-God attempts to recapture the spirit of the series, excellent music (barring some of the songs), an awesome(-ly underused) Metal Sonic redesign, and a concept that, had it been implemented considerably differently, probably would have worked wonderfully. The problem was that the list of flaws was almost twice as long, if not longer... Awful dialogue, floaty controls that lack any semblance of the required accuracy, far too much emphasis on combat, levels whose length make War and Peace look short by comparison, the requirement to beat the game as all four teams despite them going through literally the same levels, special stages that were borderline broken and were ridiculously difficult to get into, some of the most tedious boss fights in history, and a team mechanic that should have been implemented considerably differently from how it actually was for it to actually work. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I'll openly admit that I kind of liked Heroes when it first came out... I didn't buy it until many years later, when I got the PC version for a fiver, but still! It was an okay, but horrendously flawed, title.

Nothing excuses Shadow and 2K6, though. The idea is for games to get better with time; instead, they just got worse and worse...

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by Omni Hunter »

Heroes was essentially a ballpool hyped up to be something much better. It was fun but definitely one for the young'uns, despite the things like Shadow's story, Metal Sonic's revival and the return of Chaotix, the game just came out too immature to take those elements overly seriously.

One game that also crops to mind is Sonic R, I'm not sure how people rated it, but it was somewhat enjoyable. The formula could work these days, I think, my brother is playing that Olympics game and one mode features a very Sonic R style race and pulls it off in a non-too-shabby kind of way.

Anyway, back to "forced replay value", I think Shadow The Hedgehog came off far worse in those terms. Fair play that you take different routes for different levels, but I'd rather just go over all the levels and bosses than be reminded of "just how many routes I can take" in some menu telling me that I still have over thirty stories to try out. I think it was way more overzealous in that respect than Heroes, though the target demographics were most probably poles apart.

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Re: What Sonic game is this?

Post by RocketPunch »

Shadow Hog wrote:Yeah, while it was admittedly the beginning of the end, it wasn't until Shadow came out that it was wildly apparent that they'd finally jumped the shark.
Amen. The Sonic franchise ended for me as soon as Shadow started packing heat. Since then I've pretty much ignored every aspect of the series post-SA.

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