If Nintendo owned Sonic and Co.

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Soul
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Post by Soul »

Ngangbius wrote:^Dude, 1994 is over.

Sega lost.
Yet would I still be willing to hand myself over to the enemy after the end of the war? Judges say: hells to the NO!

Okay, so what we're debating about really comes down to a personal taste, but still, why can't I have both? Why don't we derserve a game not only is well-crafted and coded to perfection, being the easiest to control and most fun to play, but also has the main hero/heroine who actually their own picks with people?

I'll give props to you: Nintendo is capiable of making serious titles like Zelda and Metroid, both worthy of any gamer's collection to keep. But the thing about Link and Samus is the fact that they play out as the 'nobel hero who'll always do the right thing'.

I don't see Sonic as that nobel hero - more like a guy who plays a hero only because it's just fun pissing off a fat man with an IQ of Albert Einstine, a.k.a 'just because'. Mario doesn't get shown in that light, neither does Samus, Link, Fox or any other 'hero' of any franchise Nintendo's been involved in (maybe except for Donkey Kong).

Point being, this would be the reason why most people wouldn't agree on letting Nintendo take the franchise off Sega's hands: because no lead character has the same unique quality that Sonic has since the day he was created from the 16 pixels Sega drew him from: he's an impatient, cocky, smart-assed kid who you could relate him to the same underdog you use to know or still knew from high school. If Nintendo's willing keep that same quality with him when they do make a platformer for him, then sure I'd buy it like $1 hotcakes!

But my gut tells me that won't fly with Nintendo. So I wouldn't risk it.

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Owen Axel
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Post by Owen Axel »

Remember back when Sonic games had no dialogue, cutscenes or character development?

Wasn't that great?

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Isuka
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Post by Isuka »

Soul wrote:I don't see Sonic as that nobel hero - more like a guy who plays a hero only because it's just fun pissing off a fat man with an IQ of Albert Einstine, a.k.a 'just because'.
Now that I think about that...

Also, I sure was thrilled at the idea of Sonic and co. talking (in a game!) when I first knew about Adventure, but it somehow limited the character and it's "mentality" to just whatever the designers thought that would be cool or heroic or lazy or whatever that fitted Sonic's pop-culture profile. Now I'd like to see just the opposite; a next-generation 3D Sonic mute rendition, just like Link.

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Ngangbius
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Post by Ngangbius »

Hey Owen! Did you hear? Bioware is making a Sonic RPG! A Sonic RPG!
Soul wrote:*snip*
You do know that Nintendo also has a whole franchise based on a crass and deceitful character who ultimate goal in life is to get rich any which way possible. So it's not like Nintendo is any stranger to having anti-heroes in leading roles for games. Although Sonic isn't as immoral as the afformed mentioned character.

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Post by gr4yJ4Y »

You can't really compare Sonic with Wario though. Wario is immoral, like you said, but also based around a certain wackiness that includes fart jokes. Do you really want Sonic doing fart jokes?

But still it's a completely different personality. Sonic isn't entirely an anti-hero (nothing close), but still not really a straight-up typical hero either.

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One Classy Bloke
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Post by One Classy Bloke »

But I still think the only utterly incompetent guys at the current Sonic Team are the programmers and testers,
The true problem with most Sonic games is the fact they give them cripplingly little time to develop and fix any bugs. Back when I was at Sega, they had four weeks to fully test the game before release. When it first came in, the framerate was pathetic, the game crashed every other level, some characters weren't fully implemented and Rouge's eyelashes tended to detach and fly around during cutscenes. The game needed at least 6 months.

Yea, Sega's not very good at planning it seems.

Also, i should mention that Shadow the Hedgehog had only 6 weeks to be tested before release.
Last edited by One Classy Bloke on Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Owen Axel
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Post by Owen Axel »

Ngangbius wrote:Hey Owen! Did you hear? Bioware is making a Sonic RPG! A Sonic RPG!
I dun wanna!

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Post by gr4yJ4Y »

One Classy Bloke wrote:
But I still think the only utterly incompetent guys at the current Sonic Team are the programmers and testers,
The true problem with most Sonic games is the fact they give them cripplingly little time to develop and fix any bugs. Back when I was at Sega, they had four weeks to fully test the game before release. When it first came in, the framerate was pathetic, the game crashed every other level, some characters weren't fully implemented and Rouge's eyelashes tended to detach fly around during cutscenes. The game needed at least 6 months.

Yea, Sega's not very good at planning it seems.

Also, i should mention that Shadow the Hedgehog had only 6 weeks to be tested before release.
I suppose they do a fantastic job in 4 weeks if that's the case. It must be Sega's management.

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Kogen
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Post by Kogen »

I really can't see why they're not given any time to test it, another Sega game I play(Medieval 2) gets like 3 weeks just to test a patch and this is Sega testing it after the developer tested it themselves for awhile, they're apparently forced to do this. Sega staff even post at the forums several times a week and talk to everyone about it and actually discuss things. This game also got forced out at Christmas and turned out like Sonic Next yet they were able to patch everything up eventually to make it a great game, I can't understand why they treat such a smaller franchise with so much care yet ignore their main series, I can only assume SoE has more logical policies concerning games they develop themselves.

Oh yeah, about Nintendo. I think it's almost a fact that the games would turn out average with absolutely no charm left in them at all, effectively killing it due to lack of any creativity, like Mario platformers.

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Forza Johnman
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Post by Forza Johnman »

If Nintendo were to make Sonic games, I have no doubt the quality of the main series of titles would improve. I don't think they would harm Sonic's character any more then Sega already have.

But, my ideal outside developer would probably be Ubisoft. I think they'll inject some humour and quality into the series. Plus they made a game with Rastafarian rhinoceroses. Genius.

Not really sure on Capcom and Konami really.

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Kogen
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Post by Kogen »

Capcom and Konami would be too afraid to make any risks or spend any reasonable amount of money on a classic franchise. An interview with the Megaman creator had him talking about how a console Megaman game isn't worth the money to even do, prefering to only do games like Lost Planet and something which includes zombies. The latest Megaman games were really no better or worse than what handheld Sonic games we've been getting, so the only difference would be no more console Sonic games. As for Konami, they seem to prefer low budget games with no creativity either from what I've seen of the Castlevania and Contra series lately.

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Crazy Penguin
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Post by Crazy Penguin »

Owen Axel wrote:Remember back when Sonic games had no dialogue, cutscenes or character development?

Wasn't that great?
The very first Sonic game had at least one cut scene - the end of Scrap Brain Zone Act 2. Sonic 2 had cut scenes in Wind Fortress Zone. Sonic CD had cut scenes with Amy and Metal Sonic. Sonic 3 & Knuckles had numerous cut scenes between and during the levels.

I'd love to see a return - nay, a REFINEMENT - of the way cut scenes were handled in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, there was a certain thrill of anything being able to happen that wasn't there in the previous games. Angel Island Zone getting set on fire, earthquakes in Marble Garden Zone, the lights getting switched off in Carnival Night Zone, ghosts released in Sandopolis. The more stuff happening and changing - the more ACTION - the better. The key to improving these little transition scenes is in making them as interactive as possible, there should always be useful stuff to do.

That is good. Bunnies talking about friendship and princesses kissing hedgehogs... that's not so good.

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Isuka
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Post by Isuka »

Oops, so that's the real problem; testers almost have their hands tied in this aspect. So the real point'd be that SEGA is essentially screwing the games for... no reason at all, am I wrong?
What's the point of getting the thing 6 months earlier than what's needed for it to work properly? They aren't even expansion packs or half-assed annual sequels like EA's, they're completely disjointed products. It's nonsense.

Back on topic, there's a big problem with all the "returning to the roots/ keep it the way it was" thing; it's going nowhere, particularly on home consoles. For a 3D Sonic game, from a gameplay perspective, it needs to be severely altered and transformed into an action game, so you have the freedom of defeating the enemies by rolling into them, jumping, kicking, homing, blasting and so on with multiple attacks and several buttons assigned to that effect instead of just two; also the kind of cutscenes described by CP are totally welcomed (remember that one of SotR's first stage, with a chunk of wall crumbling and falling below Sonic's feet? that's weak, where are my massive crumbling Angel Towers that lead to a gigantic fortress taking off to outer space in fucking High Definition?), and of course some actual platforming instead of just going through your scripted path with minimal, glitchy interactivity.

... OK, I'm done, sorry for saying all this crap again for the thousandth time.

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Post by Opa-Opa »

Crazy Penguin wrote:The very first Sonic game had at least one cut scene - the end of Scrap Brain Zone Act 2. Sonic 2 had cut scenes in Wind Fortress Zone. Sonic CD had cut scenes with Amy and Metal Sonic. Sonic 3 & Knuckles had numerous cut scenes between and during the levels.

I'd love to see a return - nay, a REFINEMENT - of the way cut scenes were handled in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, there was a certain thrill of anything being able to happen that wasn't there in the previous games. Angel Island Zone getting set on fire, earthquakes in Marble Garden Zone, the lights getting switched off in Carnival Night Zone, ghosts released in Sandopolis. The more stuff happening and changing - the more ACTION - the better. The key to improving these little transition scenes is in making them as interactive as possible, there should always be useful stuff to do.

That is good. Bunnies talking about friendship and princesses kissing hedgehogs... that's not so good.
Would you sign me an autograph, please?

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Soul
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Post by Soul »

*sniffles* Make that two...that was beautiful. T-T

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Post by Wooduck51 »

The problem of the quality of programming has been steadily growing since Sonic 1 was released, but it was kept under control just enough that it didn't bother you too much. Numerous times in Sonic 1,2 and 3&knuckles I have gotten stuck in walls, frozen in transport, gotten stuck off screen and then been able to throw myself halfway across a level, and various other occurrences. And God forbid you go super, because then the problems get worse, I am sure that others have accidentally jumped after passing the goal in sonic 2 and frozen the game solid as a rock, which has brought mighty lamentations from me. And if you need more evidence about the state of erly games Cult has some.

SO, it seems that 3-D just magnifies a problem that has been around for awhile. But other than the horrible bugs in the recent games, they all had the potential to be very enjoyable.

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Arcade
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Re: If Nintendo owned Sonic and Co.

Post by Arcade »

Sega doesn’t have creative integrity since Sonic Adventure 2, a game that just relied in a lot of "popular" things. A girl with big boobs, an angst character who is a "clone" of Sonic named Shadow, a possible origin of sonic, giving Robotnik relatives, and make the government or a part of it the bad guy that started all(G.U.N). And they also turned Amy to her “before Sonic Adventure” personality, as a way to make fun of crazy fan girls…

Sega doesn’t exists anymore, is just a panchinko company using Sega face as a mask. Sonic and the Secret Rings was cool, and technically made by Sega, but they didn’t use their own engine, and how hard is to make a game if you already have someone else engine?.

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Soul
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Post by Soul »

^Alot hard...because you have no idea how that engine works, compared to building the game engine yourself and just improving on said engine.

Example: It's like when Windows dropped Vista on us and force it to be the main OS on pratcially every PC brand out there: you know HOW it works...but does it work the same way and how much can you do to it? Better yet, can you make Vista use the same programs you've been using over the past few years and customize it to how you want it to go?

*looks around* Well...somebody wanna give him an answer?

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Hybrid
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Post by Hybrid »

Kogen wrote:Oh yeah, about Nintendo. I think it's almost a fact that the games would turn out average with absolutely no charm left in them at all, effectively killing it due to lack of any creativity, like Mario platformers.
That's absolutely rubbish. I don't know where this sudden perception of Nintendo being completely incapable of capturing the "feel" of a character has come from, but I don't see any logic behind it at all. It simply isn't true.

They proved they could do a more spontaneous, less-than-hero sort of character with Wario. They proved they can write witty dialogue with every game in the Paper Mario series. I don't see why anyone would just flat out assume that they wouldn't be able to adapt to suit Sonic.

It's not like Sonic has any soul left at Sega, anyway. Throwing out lines like "SUPER POWER OF TEAMWORK" might be somewhat cliche and predictable, but its a perfect example of Sonic Team themselves no longer realising what made the character great to begin with. Nintendo certainly can't do any worse in that regard, and I think we'd all agree they'd do a better job of actually making the game, so... Where, exactly, is the problem?

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Zeta
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Post by Zeta »

I think everyone has temporarily regressed into the Sega vs Nintendo battle somehow.

Mario is liek, a total fag. Lolz. Sonic is one bad mutherfucker who would totally fuck him over. lol

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Ngangbius
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Post by Ngangbius »

I think many are stuck in the city of Nostalgia-ville.

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Soul
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Post by Soul »

That...and I rather not see something that has the chance to redeem itself greately get screwed over...period. Tomb Raider got that advantage, DMC got that advantage, hell Crash-flippin'-Bandicoot might get that redemption if he's done right.

And let's not forget - if Sonic goes 'bye-bye' from Sega, Sega goes bye-bye for good. Unless they can start focusing on other classics like Burning Rangers & Streets of Rage again, they're gone. Go ahead and fight me on this, but it's a guarrenteed fact - they'll be gone in the same fiscal year when the hedgehog & plumber become roommates. Again, another thing that can get redeemed to greatness.

But...if it means anything to settle my side of the debate, I am instrested in seeing the end result of what Nintendo would do the blue fuzzball. Because let's face facts: only Nintendo can get Sonic back into the right shoes, and I can guarrentee that Mayamoto was probably hungry to get his hands on this goldmine since the Genessis days. It's the only option Sonic has...it's the only option to take.

...but I still rather die out in a whimper than live and know I was pretty much in denial since '94. It's just my kind of thing. *smug grin*

Edit: Actually, fuck Nintendo. Anyone who's good at coding & programing and wants to use a few good ideas, join me in creating Zen City Labs! We'll be some broke bums for a few years, but the 1st original peice we drop'll outshine us!

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Ngangbius
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Post by Ngangbius »

Well, I never said that Sega should sell Sonic to Nintendo. I don't think anybody did really. I just wouldn't mind seeing a Sonic platformer to a group of competant developers.

As for Sega...well, I'm nearly at that point where I wouldn't shed a tear if Sega suddenly dies. But that's probably because the game series I used to love from them are either dead or dying. =\

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Psxphile
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Post by Psxphile »

Miyamoto says he could of made Sonic, but chose not to.

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Ngangbius
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Post by Ngangbius »

Okay, that got a chuckle out of me.

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