An interesting article on Sega's downward trend

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Shadow Hog
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An interesting article on Sega's downward trend

Post by Shadow Hog »

A cliché topic, I guess, but I found <a href="http://wii.advancedmn.com/article.php?a ... iew=">this article</a> to be rather interesting. At least, it's an interesting conversation starter.

So, yeah. Is SonicTeam really sucking because of itself, or is upper management what's bogging them down? Could it be Sammy's fault treatment of QA workers like OCB were treated like utter trash? Really, what IS with Sega and its insistence of quantity over quality?

Honestly, though, I have to agree an awful lot with the article. I'm not entirely convinced that Sammy's completely being the badguy here (I wasn't even aware that Sega backed out of the deal at any point), and it wouldn't surprise me if half the stuff there was overly generalized, but seriously, what happened to the Sega who'd listen to its fans? Better yet, is that Sega ever going to return, or is the new, business-minded, "screw quality, just get it out" Sega going to remain for good (or, perhaps worse, drive the entire company into the ground?)

Also, speaking of Sammy, <a href="http://gonintendo.com/?p=16820"><i>Guilty Gear</i> for Wii</a>. Soon. I never played ANY <i>Guilty Gear</i> game, and don't really know what to expect (other than Bridget), so maybe, just maybe, this would be worth looking into (seeing as it supports the VC controller and all).

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Post by cjmcray »

Bring back Peter Moore.

..Well, i'm not so sure Moore had anything to do with quality SEGA games, but when he was President of SEGA, that's when there were quality titles out..

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Post by BlazeHedgehog »

But Peter Moore is the retard who spent like, 18 million dollars on an advertising campaign for NFL2k3 or 2k2 that was a colossal failure. He made a vow that year that NFL 2kx would beat Madden, so he spent this huge sum of money on an advertising campaign and, that year, the NFL 2kx series sold barely 350,000 copies total.

Unsurprisingly, it was shortly after that debacle he left Sega and eventually ended up at Microsoft.

Moore was also only around primarily during the Dreamcast era of Sega, and was, apparently, one of the driving forces behind Sega abandoning hardware and becoming software-exclusive.

You really sure you wanna bring him back?

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Post by Shadow Hog »

Well, he IS doing pretty well for Microsoft right about now... but then, there's really no way he'd be going back. Anything Sega can offer, Microsoft can offer twice over - and they wouldn't care as much about losing the money.

That said, I don't think he alone would be able to bring Sega out of its rut right now, anyway.

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Post by Ngangbius »

article wrote:Not too long ago, Yuzo Koshiro approached Sega with a proposition to develop a new entry in the once beloved Streets of Rage series. Though he was a lead designer for the original three games (and produced the soundtrack for all three), Sega owns the rights to the property. He wanted his company to develop the sequel at his expense, and Sega to publish the title. Sega refused the project. It’s even rumored that the title was to be developed for one of the download services offered by the current three consoles, thus eliminating distribution costs to near zero, but Sega still refused the project outright, even though it was a golden opportunity that their fans have been screaming for since the late 90’s, yet Sega turned a blind eye to them.
=( Oh god...

I'm willing to bet the similar thing happened to Reiko Kodama and her desire to make a Skies of Arcadia sequel.

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Post by cjmcray »

BlazeHedgehog wrote:Moore was, apparently, one of the driving forces behind Sega abandoning hardware and becoming software-exclusive.
SEGA pretty much had no choice. It was either be software exclusive, or go bankrupt. So Moore made a good move in supporting going multi-platform.

Even in the first few years of being multi-platform, (Which was 2001) SEGA put out good titles. It wasn't until sometime in 2003 that Moore left for Microsoft. Which was about the same time Heroes was in development, which was also, right when Sonic was making his transition from decent to shit. (Heroes itself wasn't BAD, just medicore, but it was the beginning of some truly bad Sonic titles to come)

Now all of SEGA's games are racers, sports games, crappy Sonic titles, a updated PSO every year, and Monkey Ball. No innovation anymore. Nothing new and groundbreaking like Shenmue, JSR and Space Channel 5 were.

I'm pretty sure Moore's absence has something to do with the decline of quality.

Remember the Saturn? Complete failure. SEGA was pretty much down and out as a company. 32X, Pico, Game Gear, no SEGA console sold that well aside from the Genesis. Then comes along Peter Moore, and the Dreamcast follows. Sonic Adventure. Shenmue. Space Channel 5. Crazy Taxi. PSO. Skies of Arcadia. It's Thinking. The huge sales at launch.

SEGA was for a time, "cool again"

But then Sony ruined everything with the Ps2, but that's another topic..

Point is: If Moore was back, I think SEGA would put out better games. Just my opinon. Of course, there's no way he'd come back now, being in charge of the top-selling game console at the moment..
Last edited by cjmcray on Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:21 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by Zeta »

Nintendo should've snatched up the company and it's licenses before Sammy could. It would've been the ultimate irony and their quality control could probably keep all the franchises afloat while putting out decent titles - and probably only one title for each franchise per every 2 years.

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Post by Segaholic2 »

Ngangbius wrote:
article wrote:Not too long ago, Yuzo Koshiro approached Sega with a proposition to develop a new entry in the once beloved Streets of Rage series. Though he was a lead designer for the original three games (and produced the soundtrack for all three), Sega owns the rights to the property. He wanted his company to develop the sequel at his expense, and Sega to publish the title. Sega refused the project. It’s even rumored that the title was to be developed for one of the download services offered by the current three consoles, thus eliminating distribution costs to near zero, but Sega still refused the project outright, even though it was a golden opportunity that their fans have been screaming for since the late 90’s, yet Sega turned a blind eye to them.
=( Oh god...

I'm willing to bet the similar thing happened to Reiko Kodama and her desire to make a Skies of Arcadia sequel.
What kind of proof does this guy have that this even happened? He doesn't cite any sources whatsoever for the entire article and apparently just lists a bunch of admittedly interesting anecdotes without anything to back them up.

On the other hand, there is hard evidence that there was a Streets of Rage 4 planned at some point, as the early alpha demo videos have been available online for quite a while.

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Post by smiths32 »

Remember the Saturn? Complete failure. SEGA was pretty much down and out as a company. 32X, Pico, Game Gear, no SEGA console sold that well aside from the Genesis. Then comes along Peter Moore, and the Dreamcast follows. Sonic Adventure. Shenmue. Space Channel 5. Crazy Taxi. PSO. Skies of Arcadia. It's Thinking. The huge sales at launch.
Saturn was a success in Japan, moreso than the Mega Drive was there, outselling Nintendo 64 and possibly the Playstation for a while. The Master System also did well in certain regions such as UK, Australia and Brazil. And while the Gameboy sold much more than it, I'm quite sure that the Game Gear did decently.

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Post by Kogen »

Peter Moore is the idiot that didn't let them make another Streets of Rage title, why would anyone want him back? I always thought it was his fault(moderately) that the Dreamcast failed in America since he was in charge at the time. When I read that part about him mentioning Yuzo wanting to do that as a downloadable game, the only thing I think think of was "bullshite" as SoR 4 footage is of a DC game. If you'd want to bring anyone back, I'd say go for Tom Kalinske who was president of SoA from 1991-1996 since he was obviously the most successful. Simon Jeffery is the previous president of Lucas Arts, it makes me wonder how he even managed to get to where he is now.

Also since when has XBox/XBox 360 made a profit? Microsoft apparently put over 20 billion into their game department yet even now they're losing money on it. Just seems like dumb brute force any company could do without money worries.

The saddest part is when they basically killed everything besides Sonic Team and AM2, then keeping AM2's leader grounded from doing anything creative. It really helped explain why everything sucks since 2003.

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Post by Radrappy »

It is my belief that the world is now paying for the death of the dreamcast. With superior games and ideals, Sega was pulverized by a console launch as hollow and over hyped as there has ever been in this industry. Even to this day, the Ps2 in all its longevity, never had an identity or personality akin to the dreamcast. Blech.[/b]

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Post by Tsuyoshi-kun »

My problem with the Dreamcast as there aren't a lot of exclusive titles, and a lot of them were ports of PlayStation games with SLIGHTLY better graphics. Everything that was big on Dreamcast moved to either Gamecube or PS2: REZ, Skies of Arcadia, Sonic (except Shuffle, which blows), Phantasy Star Online, arcade perfect 2-D fighters from Capcom and SNK, Grandia II (well, not here, but the rest of the Internet adores this game)...I honestly do not know why I still own a Dreamcast aside from Marvel vs. Capcom 2. Is there some sort of magical, Japan-only games that make it still worth owning?

Sega's death had nothing to do with the Dreamcast not being popular enough to the masses who were stritten with Sony and the same damn Pokemon games over and over again. Sega fucked up on their own. They had a second chance, still screwed up, gave certain people too much power (Yu Suzuki, Yuji Naka, Takashi Iizuka), and instead of trying as a third-party developer, decided to, almost purposely, produce the same shit that made them fail in the DC era onto PlayStation 2 and Gamecube, whose players seem to have lower standards for what qualifies as good than Dreamcast owners did. Satisfied with mediocrity, Sega continued to appeal to the masses with their watered-down games. Occassionally there was a bright spot (Virtua Fighter 4, Sonic Rush, Panzer Dragoon Orta), but essentially Sega, like Square, think people like pretty pictures and gimmicks instead of good gameplay. For shame.

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Post by Radrappy »

All of those games you mentioned were dreamcast exclusives (sans Grandia 2 I think) until the console's demise. I don't think its a fair argument to be claiming that the dreamcast didn't have enough exclusives seeing as they were only ported afterwards.

Sure your argument stands for why anyone would play a dreamcast now. The fact of the matter is that even when all of these great titles were exclusives, only a small few of the gaming public were willing to give the dreamcast a chance.

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Post by Tsuyoshi-kun »

Radrappy wrote:All of those games you mentioned were dreamcast exclusives (sans Grandia 2 I think) until the console's demise. I don't think its a fair argument to be claiming that the dreamcast didn't have enough exclusives seeing as they were only ported afterwards.
You know how I mentioned there were a lot of ports on Dreamcast? What system were the games also on, and with a fanbase much, much bigger than it for being on the market 4 years before Sega came out with the Dreamcast? PlayStation. By 2000 PlayStation was one of the highest-selling systems in the world. Did you buy a Dreamcast because you wanted fun, endearing titles, or to play South Park: Chef's Luv Shack?

What Sega of America AND Japan should have done was make more exclusives, less 128-bit revivlas, and less arcade ports. There's tons and tons of original series only made for the PlayStation line, but Sega didn't attempt this. When I brought a Dreamcast while it was still alive, very few games struck out at me (most still don't). When I looked at Ecco, I didn't think "Cool, Ecco". I thought "Why on Earth did they make a fourth title to such a boring, overhyped Genesis franchise?". Virtua Fighter 3 looked like a snzzier Virtua Fighter 2. Soul Calibur was fun, but I lik the sequel more. The Evolution games were very mediocre dungeon RPGs with very little innovation and an incredibly annoying inability to save in dungeons except for the final floor with leaving. Everyone already played Sakura Taisen back in 1997 on the Sega Saturn, and its follow ups, remakes, and spinoff (Columns) weren't needed. The original, Dreamcast Phantasy Star Online was clumsy and hard to get into when you were not online. The Sonic Adventure games were fun but flawed and buggy. Chu Chu Rocket was cute but didn't really need Dreamcast power to harvest it. Sega Swirl was fun but felt like an online Flash game. I haven't played Shenmue, so I can' much about it. Typing of the Dead is just another typing game and a quick cash cow. Samba de Amigo is fun, but even in 2000 I saw stores quickly run out of the maracas, which is like using the Wiimote to type online. Resident Evil Code Veronica is yet another of the 700 Resident Evil games out there, as part of Capcom's policy of running all its franchises to the ground.

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Post by Segaholic2 »

Your opinion is basically retarded.

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Post by Tsuyoshi-kun »

Sorry if I didn't see Dreamcast in shiny "SEGA ROCKS" glasses like everyone else. I've bought less games for that system than any other in my life. Even X-BOX.

Enligthen me, O wise one. Why do I not see that you do?

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Post by Segaholic2 »

The Dreamcast era is the time period during which Sega's development teams had the most creative freedom and autonomy, which resulted in arguably some of the best output they've had ever. Games that were not just technically impressive, but truly innovative as well. Radrappy already pointed out that most of the games you mentioned being ports were only ported after the Dreamcast's death, so your point there doesn't count.

Your entire post can pretty much be summed in this sentence: "I don't like good games."
If you never liked any Ecco game you either suck at games or your opinion just plain sucks.
Soul Calibur 1 is widely regarded as the pinnacle of the series; check any major gaming website.
Oh no Chu Chu Rocket doesn't really need Dreamcast power to harvest it. Never mind the fact that it was essentially the first online console game ever, or did you forget that. Not to mention it's still an excellent multiplayer game by today's standards.
Typing of the Dead is "just another typing game"? Kindly direct me to this vast genre of untapped entertainment, because TotD proved that typing games can be awesome and I don't know of any other typing tutor applications that can be classified as games like TotD.
Resident Evil Code Veronica was generally considered to be one of the best RE games before RE4 came along. But you probably don't like RE4 either, because according to you any game in a whored-out franchise should have its own merits immediately disqualified.
And you haven't even played Shenmue, so...

Yeah, you're still an idiot.

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Post by Shadow Hog »

Don't forget <i>Jet Set Radio</i>.

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Post by Tsuyoshi-kun »

Now that I did play. Didn't care for it.

Maybe it was because I was 10 when I last played both games, but Ecco doesn't strike me as fun (guess I "suck at games"). Sure, it looks grogeous, but the puzzles were always confusing and not very interesting to me to tinker with it for long. Guess I got to replay it some day.

My opinion on Soul Calibur rests on the arcade version that ran on PlayStation hardware. Can't judge the DC version as I've never, ever seen it available for buy outside the Internet my whole life. No joke.

What's so great about online play? I don't remember people needing to be connected to a $30 a month network to play NES, Genesis, or SNES games with other people to have fun. Also, the Saturn had online play long before Dreamcast. Remember Saturn Bomberman?

I've seen plenty of typing games on other systems. The only thing that makes Typing of the Dead stand out is that it's based on a shooting game, whereas the others are based on music simulators or dating sims or something else.

I also don't own a Saturn. Bitch me up for that, too.

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Post by Arcade »

Does the article mention that the Sonic team that made Sonic Adventure is gone, minus for one guy?.

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Post by Locit »

Tsuyoshi-kun wrote:Now that I did play. Didn't care for it.
You hate fun.
My opinion on Soul Calibur rests on the arcade version that ran on PlayStation hardware. Can't judge the DC version as I've never, ever seen it available for buy outside the Internet my whole life. No joke.
So buy it on the internet. And the arcade version was in still an incredible game even without the amazing console-specific mission mode, so I'm not sure what there is to complain about.
What's so great about online play? I don't remember people needing to be connected to a $30 a month network to play NES, Genesis, or SNES games with other people to have fun.
Because none of those games had online play... except for the rudimentary (but ahead of its time) SegaNet, so while I could argue that online specific features/multiplayer and the ability to have an entire tv screen to oneself is argument enough for online play I'll just point out the fact that you're wrong. It really sounds like you've never played anthing online, in which case you're coming at this from a pretty sheltered perspective.
I've seen plenty of typing games on other systems. The only thing that makes Typing of the Dead stand out is that it's based on a shooting game, whereas the others are based on music simulators or dating sims or something else.
Name a good one, then. TotD stands out because of its ridiculous premise and the fact that the sentences you had to type were supremely hilarious. I laughed so hard during a couple of boss battles that I died.
I also don't own a Saturn. Bitch me up for that, too.
Bitch bitch bitch. But seriously, nobody brought that up.

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Post by FlashTHD »

Tsuyoshi-kun wrote:Maybe it was because I was 10 when I last played both games, but Ecco doesn't strike me as fun (guess I "suck at games"). Sure, it looks grogeous, but the puzzles were always confusing and not very interesting to me to tinker with it for long. Guess I got to replay it some day.
If that's what you thought when you were 10, then leave them be; nothing's going to change. From what I understand, to be able to appreciate any of the Ecco games, you need a degree of patience that's borderline inhuman.

(Not agreeing with anything else he said, mind)

I'd like to throw Vectorman into the fire here. Literally, I want to throw that piece of shit cart I wasted $3 on into an incinerator. The two Vectorman games have got to be Sega's worst ever and I balk whenever I read anything portraying them in a positive light. There's nothing positive at all about them, just frustration, tedium, and misery from start to finish. And somehow, those freaks at Blue Sky managed to make a sequel that was worse.

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Post by Locit »

Wasn't there supposed to be a 3d Vectorman sequel at some point? I seem to remember videos or screens of it popping up somewhere, but I can't be sure. I do remember IGN getting really excited about it, but IGN gets excited when they hear there's another Madden coming out each year so I might be thinking of something else.

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Post by FlashTHD »

The guys who later made Full Auto for the 360 launch were behind that. It wasn't exactly looking spectacular, even to the critics. A few screenshots and a private demo got out, then it was very quickly buried. The only thing thing left of the game is one of Vec's guns, which they slapped onto a car in Full Auto.

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Post by Shadow Hog »

I fail to see how anyone can outright HATE <i>Vectorman</i>. Dislike, maybe, most likely be relatively apathetic about, but I find them to be relatively competent platformers.

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