Next gen realism killing the charm?

Dasher · Post by **Dasher** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:00 pm

I think Sonic Team is heading the wrong direction, as seen in the new Sonic...realism doesnt fit a cartoony character. Right now some game developers are going nuts because of the new hardware, they want to create the most realistic shit ever, I mean this works for stuff like gears of war and Motor Storm, but not for Cartoon/Anime characters. I would concentrate on cell-shading or nice smooth cartoony graphics like those Of Mario Galaxy for cartoony characters. Ive heard Iizuka wanted to make Sonic "3D" ever since he first joined in Sonic 3, so here we have someone who doesnt even know what Sonic is...a cartoon character! Although Nights ingame graphics look somewhat cartoony, the CG model scares me...after all! Iizuka wanted nights on the PS3.

What do you guys think?

Adamis · Post by **Adamis** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:21 pm

Same here.
I'm not fond of the idea of "Sonic in the real world". Most of us knew him in some kind of fantasy worlds with checkered patterns, loopings and other things.
The humans in Sonic next gen are too realistic to match Sonic's style. They were acceptable in Sonic X but here, it lookd like Sonic in Final Fantasy.

I liked the way Sonic Heroes got back to these fantasy levels (Seaside Hill, Hang Castle...). They should have continued that way.

Dasher · Post by **Dasher** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:27 pm

One thing they teach me at Game school is that a character's setting must match the characters design, well Sonic has lost his setting.

its weird because in the flagship titles we are getting realistic crap while on handhelds we get the classical feel. I cant wait to see what the heck is Sonic rush adventure if it even exists <_<.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:27 pm

. . . NiGHTs was always in t3D.

I like Sonic in the real world. It makes more sense and seems like a better idea than "Sonic in generic fantasy world populated by cartoon animals". I do agree that the NPC humans shouldn't be photorealistic, but the old Sonic style in 3D, as seen in Sonic Heroes, looks like shit.

Dasher · Post by **Dasher** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:33 pm

No no no! Sonic has always been with humans since Sonic 1 for the genesis, they first showed up in SA1. Its the Final Fantasy realism I dont want to see. Sonic Heroes sucked because the models were crap and the story sucked, and some people hated the gameplay.

But Sonic in old style levels can work as seen in SA1, SA1 was seen as realistic by some, but it really wasnt! that game was a classic as S&K! think about the level design for a bit. It was a more detailed Sonic world! but it was still the same world~! That is why SA1 and SA2 were so appealing, they still had the charm! not to mention the good of everything else! but somehow the quality deteorated since heroes, My guess? Iizuka.

And Nights was always in 3D yes, but anime stylized! you know, Eliot and Claris with anime eyes, Nights eyes were also anime eyes and his eye lashes were stylized, which gave him appeal! But Nights 2 isnt stylized, its realistic and thus some things look unapealing, like the realistic eyelashes for Nights.

Sonic Team was at first about creativity, now they new Sonic Team (Iizuka and friends) is about showing off FF grafix.

Ngangbius · Post by **Ngangbius** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:40 pm

I like Sonic in the real world. It makes more sense and seems like a better idea than "Sonic in generic fantasy world populated by cartoon animals".

As opposed to Sonic in a generic real world like it was in Sonic 2K6?

Also, is this topic soley about Sega's problem in handling Sonic's atmosphere with the HD, next-gen hardware or in general companies failure to utilize cartoony-fantasy-like settings with said hardware? If it is the later, then Insomiac would like a word with you.

Dasher · Post by **Dasher** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:44 pm

Wow! now that is a good example of what a cartoony next gen game should look like, you see its all in the mind. It can be done, but the current Sonic Team have a struggle with something...and they keep saying reinvent, it must be Iizuka! because he said he reivented Some characters in heroes...and we all saw how he reinvented Shadow...this cant be good.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:59 pm

Too bad Insomniac makes the flattest characters and plots on earth. Except Spyro himself. And I think he was more of a fluke than anything.

Ngangbius · Post by **Ngangbius** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:40 pm

I'll take the goofy, simplistic non-serious plot in R&C over the shitty, over-the-top plots that plague the recent Sonic games.

ChaosAngelZero · Post by **ChaosAngelZero** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:53 pm

... Maybe it's not someone's fault, but actually nobody's fault at all. I guess there's almost no one caring about general landscape and environment design in the last string of home consoles' Sonic games. Sonic Adventure was somewhat of a spin-off in style, an actual reinvention without going so far. SA2 took it farther by darkening the plot, but still had level design that fit Sonic's style and gameplay. Then, both Sonic Heroes and the entire Advance series (and Sonic Rivals) tried to get all retro; the idea itself kind of worked, but the levels felt... old, already used, with some exceptions like Hang Castle and Mystic Mansion, but it didn't make much sense combining Seaside Hill's checkered hills and Egg Fleet's realistic weapons. And there was the gameplay.

I don't really like the FF-esque humans of Sonic Next-gen, but I also see it as a spin-off, in the same way as Sonic Adventure only definitely not as fresh anymore, while Shadow the Hedgehog was a extreme leap out of Sonic's style just to try and set Shadow's character farther of Sonic's, and general 'hip' take for Sonic Riders and 'exotic arabian' for Secret Rings. It also kind of fits with Takashi Murakami's take on why things/ characters like Sonic the Hedgehog are universally popular; with constant, sometimes subtle, sometimes not as subtle, reinvention.
Even Mario has undergone some little reinvention with Super Mario Sunshine and Strikers, as well as constantly sticking with it's identity with titles such as New Super Mario Bros., and trying to go into a little spin-off with Galaxy.

And Zeta's right, Ratchet's awfully flat. For plot, right this moment I would prefer a mute Sonic the Hedgehog remake (AKA run while saving little critters along the way, defeat egg-shaped mad scientist), I can't make a direct comparison between Ratchet's and Sonic's because of their currently opposed takes on the genre.

Light Speed · Post by **Light Speed** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:53 pm

My biggest problem with Sonic nowadays is that his games aren't fun to play. They could be if they ironed out the bugs and what not, but Heroes was plagued with bottomless pits and that pretty stupid multi character gimmick, and 2K6, well you know. I think I could live with the graphical style and dumb story if they at least got the game play right.

Dasher · Post by **Dasher** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:56 pm

Hmm, you got a point Light Speed and ChaosAngelZero.

Owen Axel · Post by **Owen Axel** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:58 pm

I rather like the realistic style. The charm of the old games was the delightfully fluid gameplay, not the graphics. I could like a bit more cartoony than what they got in the next-gen game, though, as long as they don't go back to the balloon-headed style of Sonic Heroes.

Doing away with the overly complex Final Fantasy style plots is something I'm in favour of, though. An anthropomorphic hedgehog fighting a criminal mastermind with an army of robots is exactly the right amount of surrealism. Don't need to go beyond that.

ChaosAngelZero · Post by **ChaosAngelZero** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:01 pm

... Of course, you can always take all what I wrote, shove it up your ass, and make a game that plays like shit. Those are only details that give the finishing touch to the product, not it's core.

Oh, and JoD NiGHTS still looks good for me. There's something about the in-game model's face that kind of creeps me out, but it's still right.

Soul · Post by **Soul** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:24 pm

Hmm...yeah, I knew there was a reason I came to this forum. You guys actually bring up well-worth subjects about the franchise. Which is more than I can say for any forum I've ever been involved in.

But back on subject, I would have to agree. Though I think it's Ngangbius who puts the nail on the head. Sure, I wouldn't mind something set in a real-life setting as much as Sonic2k6 was, but it would also help if that setting wasn't overly-realistic, and just had a rich, live quality that the likes of us have yet to see...well, until Ratchet & Clank Future: Tools of Destruction blows us away. I've seen the screens, and hell is it ever amazing!

This would be the direction that Izuka should take heed to if he's really looking to reinvent the franchise as a whole when it comes to console games. I don't know about you, but I haven't seen a Sonic game which adds onto more of the same formula instead of 'just making it prettier/realistic'. And what I mean by 'adding more' is, as a sheer-fire example, blowing out your levels to where you could actually go anywhere you wanted. Sonic 2k6 did this to a point, but it still had that 'just follow the course' feeling you get everytime you played a level. And if you feel off that course, you were severly punished. No second way out, no chance to redeem yourself.

Maybe this 'break' that the team is taking from producing a console title for the blue speed freak would give them that chance to put that in thought, but I wouldn't get too hopefull.

And yeah, Insomniac has toned down on character development. They've changed up Ratchet from the 1st game so much to the point where he wasn't as instresting as he was before after Up Your Arsenal.

gr4yJ4Y · Post by **gr4yJ4Y** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:39 pm

I don't think anyone watched the trailer of Sonic 2k6 and thought, "Yeah, Sonic in Final Fantasy! This will work!" At the same time I thought that Sonic Heroes was too cartoony. I rather like the middle-ground that Sonic and the Secret Rings brings. But at the same time I felt like Sonic didn't blend into the world, even less so than SA.

The humans, other than Eggman in SA2 were akwardly realist looking. I never felt too comfortable about how Sonic looks next to the humans in Sonic X either. I think that if they feel the need to put in human characters other than Eggman they need to make them the same level of cartooniness as Sonic.

Although, I personally would like to see humans other than Eggman completely removed. There's enough animals in the universe that we don't human characters.

Black Rook · Post by **Black Rook** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:51 pm

gr4yJ4Y wrote:Although, I personally would like to see humans other than Eggman completely removed. There's enough animals in the universe that we don't human characters.

I don't mind their existence, but I do think they should be kept in the background. I'd like GUN and President Generic to stop existing altogether. The only humans we should be seeing (aside from Robotnik) are maybe random bystanders in city areas, none of which have names or are involved in the story in any way aside from sometimes giving comments when prompted.

So... basically, the way they were in SA. Except with more exaggerated proportions.

ChaosAngelZero · Post by **ChaosAngelZero** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:25 pm

... Mmhh... it needed to be brought into the topic anyways; what about the Sonic's OVA concept? Now that I quickly remember it, that one was pretty good, at least for two 30-minute cartoons. Three humans counting Eggman, all Sonic and friends (and enemies) action including two "bosses", just one or two anthropomorphic guys and that's it.

Translate to next generation gaming reality, multiply per 10 or so, keep the genre fixed at 3D action platformer, and you have it.

Ngangbius · Post by **Ngangbius** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:40 pm

gr4yJ4Y wrote: I think that if they feel the need to put in human characters other than Eggman they need to make them the same level of cartooniness as Sonic.

You mean human designs that are inspired by this fellow here:

FlashTHD · Post by **FlashTHD** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:22 pm

I had my .02 all thought up for this, then I realized: fuck, no wonder the dude's points are crap, it's Segasonic on another account who started this.

But for the sake of intelligent discussion and not his parroting, Light Speed has said basically everything for me, and if you want "cartoony" humans, SA1 has what you're looking for.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:28 pm

Arcade's worse these days.

Light Speed · Post by **Light Speed** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:33 pm

20 cents!?

cjmcray · Post by **cjmcray** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:02 pm

I agree that Sonic's world shouldn't be "too" real, but it should still have the level of realism SA1 did, it makes it feel more epic and large in scale.

I don't see a problem with utilizing next-gen graphics. (That's about the only thing in Sonic2k6 that makes me want to play, despite the bad reviews) The only thing that hurts next-gen Sonic games is the gameplay, voices, and storylines.

Arcade · Post by **Arcade** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:09 pm

No matter what we do or say, Sonic in 3D will keep getting stuck with bad ideas and rushed programming.

firemario1001 · Post by **firemario1001** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:31 pm

Dasher wrote:One thing they teach me at Game school is that a character's setting must match the characters design, well Sonic has lost his setting.

its weird because in the flagship titles we are getting realistic crap while on handhelds we get the classical feel. I cant wait to see what the heck is Sonic rush adventure if it even exists <_<.

*snickers* game school...