Steaming Wii

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M.C.Dillinger
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Post by M.C.Dillinger »

Green Gibbon! wrote:Is there any video of Mario floating around yet? All I've seen are a scant handfull of screenshots and it looks decent to me, but everyone I talk to says it looks like ass.
http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php? ... ov&pl=game

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Ngangbius
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Post by Ngangbius »

^That looks TERRIBLE?!

Well, maybe if you are not a fan of 3D Mario, I can understand. For me though, the game looks insane--in a good way. Best looking Wii game(other than SPM) so far also.

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Post by Zeta »

Mario Galaxy looks great, but I'm worried I'll get nauseuous from all the running upside down around small areas, and I'm not entirely sure if I want to play a game that's essentially 8 levels of Mad Space from Sonic Adventure 2 when that level sucked so very much.

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Post by Frieza2000 »

Segaholic2 wrote:Show me something on the Wii that couldn't be done using a traditional controller
If we're going to define a gaming revolution as being able to do something you've never done before, then Popcorn is right in that it's the games and not the controller that will always be revolutionary. As Es said, there's nothing that you can conceive of doing in a game that you can't already do. Even if we had full immersion VR we'd still be playing Baseball, slaying monsters, and shooting terrorists, we'd just be doing it with a more immersive, or at least a more accurate, controller.

But there's definitely great potential to make games more immersive and I'd like to see some more peripherals specific to the advantages the motion sensor brings. Obviously a gun you can click the remote into so you'd have a real light gun, but also a glove with a pouch to hold the remote so it won't go flying when you throw a punch or make quick hand movements, and maybe even a sword. Then you'd have some actual counterbalance and momentum when you swing it!

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Zeta
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Post by Zeta »

I believe that there is going to be a small sword attatchment packaged with Dragon Quest, but I'm not certain I'm remembering that right.

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Popcorn
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Post by Popcorn »

James McGeachie wrote:
And Mario Galaxy is just going to be Mario 64 with a mouse cursor.
And a space setting, gravity based gameplay, the ability to completely run around objects upside down (I'd have worded this better but I can't recall how you'd describe running around a sphere in degrees), entirely different level types focusing on smaller more refined areas connected through warp points instead or large open areas... and then yes, a pointer, the use of which we really don't know about yet but I assume you can imagine the possibilities of being able to directly interact with the environment in a 3d game in that manner.

I can't take someone's opinion seriously if they either think this looks "terrible" or that it's "just going to be Mario 64" again, I hate to sound like a ridiculous fanboy but this game seems incredibly "innovative" to me and like nothing I've seen before. As of right now I don't know for sure if it needs motion controls, that much is true but I'm pretty confident the cursor will be used for some features that are genuinely fresh and exciting.
I actually think that Mario Galaxy looks pretty good. But I don't see-- and cannot imagine any possible reason-- why it couldn't have been done on Xbox 360 or PS3 instead. It still looks like a fairly traditional 3D platformer cast from the Mario 64 mold, just one with some superfluous extra controller-waving activity bolted onto it. What the Wii really needs to do, and what I personally suspect it can't, is deliver a 'real' game-- not a mini-game, but a long and involving 'experience' with a beginning, middle and end-- whose existence is completely unthinkable without the Wii controller. As far as I can see, I think this is a hollow revolution, and as an evolution it's not even a particularly preferable one.

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Post by Popcorn »

Esrever wrote:
All any controller can do is allow you to manipulate images on your TV screen. So yes, all an "innovative" controller can do is make a particular kind of manipulation easier for you to do. Does it really surprise you that all the Wii controller lets you do is... control some things better? I mean... what ELSE would it do?
I agree that it lets you 'control some things better', but it's only some things. Even your suggestions seem weak-- so the Wii remote can act as a cursor (it's still not as good as a mouse, of course); that's not exactly what I'd call a profound paradigm shift. What you're going to say here is, "Oh, but it's just another step in the evolution of the controller; how can you say that the fact that this controller can do more things than other controllers is a bad thing?" Part of my criticism is that the Wii was first revealed, then marketed and then finally celebrated with apparently universal adoration as a revolution, a total rethink of how we interact with games. It is, to my eyes, plainly not. Okay, in many cases the controller is going to make once-irritating activities a lot easier and more intuitive, I'll grant you that, but forgive me for being disappointed in discovering that the Wii seems to be a very old wolf in sheep's clothing. This isn't some fundamental alteration of how we interact with games, it's utterly superfluous; I would, in fact, argue that the jump made between, say, the GC pad and the Wii remote is a lesser one than that made between the SNES and N64 pads.

But that's not even my main criticism. The fact of the matter is that in many of the cases purported by Nintendo and their supporters to be improvements-- like shaking the controller to attack in Zelda-- isn't an improvement at all. It's utterly illusory. It is, in fact, like Gibbon said, hard work. I shudder at the thought of the coming generation of action/adventure games that are going to ask me to wave my arms around like a fitting epileptic to-- well, cut grass.
The Wiimote makes some activities easier and more intuitive to do, so games that are structured around those activities will be better on the system than they would be elsewhere. And yar, I think it does show a bit of a lack of imagination if you can't think of any deep concepts that it opens up.
Well, what's the best you can think up? Your best suggestion seems to be the console world's first fully-functioning port of Sim City.
Delphine wrote:I like the Wii because it's fun. That's the whole point of gaming. I'm not going to go into a long debate about it, because there's no need. I like it. If you don't, that's okay. Don't bother with it.
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Post by Double-S- »

I don't think the Wii even needs to have games that are "completely unthinkable" without its controller. It just needs fully-fleshed games, not mini game collections, that are developed specifically to take full advantage of the Wii controller in ways that would be better than a standard controller. So far, there have been no games that do this without making other mechanics, ones that would be much better with a regular stick, much more contrived.

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Post by Esrever »

Popcorn wrote: Well, what's the best you can think up? Your best suggestion seems to be the console world's first fully-functioning port of Sim City.
Bahaha! If that wasn't a lead in to a gigantic post no one will read, I don't know what is.

I've always had this idea in the back of my head for a platformer/rhythm-game hybrid... one where you run and jump as you would in a normal platformer, but all your special moves and combos are executed by performing drum solos in time to the level music.

No, seriously.

Originally I thought of mapping it to a dual shock in a way similar to Frequency or Amplitude. The L and R buttons were your buttons for rhythm-based attacks (one being the snare and one being the kick, of course) while the face buttons were used for non-rhythm based functions like jumping and basic attacks. But that just made the game too confusing. It was using too many buttons for a game where you're already keeping track of both the music and the level itself. And when only some of the buttons were used in time with the music, while others weren't.... blah. Also, there's only so many drum fills you can make with two on-off buttons, which made the whole combo-attack aspect really limited.

But then I played Rayman Raving Rabbids. I don't know if you have, but if you had you'd know there is this rhythm mini-game that involves "shaking" the remote and nunchuk in a manner very similar to drum sticks. When the rhythms started getting complicated, the game became very similar to drumming and it reminded me of my old game idea.

It'd be perfect. It's much easier to keep a beat consistently with this sort of tapping gesture than it is with a button push. It also helps seperate the rhythm functions from the platforming functions, which makes the controls less confusing. But best of all, the motion controls record a lot more information than a button push. They don't just see whether you hit snare or kick... they also see how hard you hit it and how fast you moved to hit it. In other words, it could register volume! This would allow for larger variety of combos without relying soley on making them longer and longer. It also would help make the sensation a bit more like real drumming.

Anyhow, that's the idea I had for the basic control system... running around with the joystick, jumping with the A button and performing rhythm moves with drumming gestures. The gameplay itself stems from throwing your platformer character into different environments, where each is a visual embodiment of a particular kind of background music. The base "beat" of this music is the beat you have to time your rhythm moves to. You'd use your fills to perform attack combos and special moves, but also to interact with the environment. To use one example, grinding might be done along "soundwaves," where you have to keep your kick drum steady on the beat to stay grinding on it, and when you stop you fall off.

Other challenges would stem from using your rhythm moves with whatever kind of music was present. For example, a level with fast music would be challenging because you have to input the moves quickly. A level with really, really slow music would be challenging because you'd have to input them slowly and more accurately. A level with music where the beat is not always audible would be challenging because you'd have to keep track of the beat yourself. (Or maybe there are switches in the level that bring back the audible beat for temporary periods.) Maybe one level is jazz, and you have to swing all your moves! (I think that would probably be too hard for a non-musician, though!)

Anyhow, er, that's one idea I had. :S

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Post by Ngangbius »

I'm probably incorrect in thinking this, but I thought Wii Sports isn't made up of mini-game collection like WarioWare. It seems to be the media darling(see Time, Conan, Cobert, etc.), and so far the showcase of the system. I'm assuming most of the Wii's popularity comes from people who really get into the game such as Wii sports, moving around the room instead of stationary manner like in the usual consoles.

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Post by Zeta »

Wii Sports seems like a minigame collection to me. The games within aren't full enough to stand on their own, but they're a bit more meaty than most minigames. But stilll . . . wouldn've been nice if Wii Sports and Wii Play were packaged together as the same game.

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Post by Esrever »

Another style of game that the Wii would be fantastic for is shooter-platformers. All the games in this genre, from the better ones (Ratchet and Clank) to the worst (Shadow the Hedgehog) basically tie your aiming direction to your moving direction, with a ton of auto aim to give your imprecise attacks a reasonable range. Imagine how neat it would be if you could make your avatar run around any which way while aiming and shooting freely anywhere on screen.

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Post by Delphine »

Popcorn wrote:Grow a spine, wench.
See? More yelling. :(

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Post by Segaholic2 »

Yes, I think Mario Galaxy looks terrible. It looks like a Mario game from a more overhead perspective that takes place on a bunch of round objects instead of flat planes, and relies on some gimmicky physics/stretching mechanisms to provide "innovation." Some spider boss encounter looked incredibly tedious as well.

It essentially looks like another Mario Sunshine - a step up from Mario 64 in some respects, but also a step down in others by relying too much on superfluous gimmicks.

That's the impression I got from whatever video I watched months ago. I have no idea if the game looks any better now because I lost all interest in it.

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Post by Zeta »

Mario in space = good idea. Mario in space on planets the size of large beachballs = bad idea.

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Post by Ngangbius »

The new video shows Mario in a larger "normal size" areas as well as the small planets. It's possible that the some of the small planets are part of a larger area or "level" or that they are like smaller levels within the main hub area--like those secret paintings in within the castle Mario 64, or even a combo of both.

I never got the SMS impression from the videos, though it helps that the scope seems larger than Sunshine--you traveling from planet to planet than cleaning up junk on some island and that you are not strapped to a water backpack. It feels more like Mario 64 and I hope the Galaxy is as non-linear as 64.

The people behind Jungle Beat are also behind Galaxy so I have faith that it will be decent.

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Post by Baba O'Reily »

There is virtually no game that would be impossible without the Wiimote, but it certainly helps you get a bit closer to the experience.

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Post by Hybrid »

Green Gibbon! wrote:No, the sword swinging in Zelda was really the lamest use of the wand I've seen yet. Plus it hurt my wrist.
I've seen you complain about this before and the only conclusions I have come to are either that you have extremely weak wrists or that you're simply doing it wrong. You don't have to literally wave the wiimote to get Link to attack, you know. A slight jiggle will suffice. The only times my wrists ever hurt were after a couple of the boss battles that I really got into and started swinging my arm much harder than I needed to just because I was so engrossed with the experience. If cutting grass and attacking simple enemies is giving you pain, then something is seriously wrong.

I agree with Popcorn that the Wii probably will never be the revolution that Nintendo promised, but I disagree in all other regards. Once developers nail the controls for certain types of games, then the Wii is going to excel above the other consoles. The FPS genre is an obvious example of this, because I can't see any 360 or PS3 shooter controlling better than what could potentially be offered on the Wii. One thing Nintendo always said is that the Wii will be a new way to play games, and the way I see it, they can quite easily deliver on that promise regardless of whether or not the games themselves are radically different.

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Post by Light Speed »

I haven't played much Wii at all, about a half hour on Wii sports and my wrist was starting to get aggravated after playing tennis for part of that time. It was a blast though.

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Post by Double-S- »

Hybrid wrote:The FPS genre is an obvious example of this, because I can't see any 360 or PS3 shooter controlling better than what could potentially be offered on the Wii. One thing Nintendo always said is that the Wii will be a new way to play games, and the way I see it, they can quite easily deliver on that promise regardless of whether or not the games themselves are radically different.
I really DON'T think the FPS genre is that well adapted to the Wii. Why? Because there's only one analog stick. That pretty much has to control movement. What about aiming? Pointing the Wiimote to the edge of the screen in order to rotate feels about as precise as using a trackpad instead of a mouse. If there was a joystick to move, a joystick on the Wiimote to rotate your screen, and finally pointing the Wiimote to aim, then I could see it being a very fun experience.

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Post by FlashTHD »

There's supposed to be an aiming mode for Metroid Prime 3 called "expert" where the amount of space you have to move the remote to look around is shrunk to the smallest size possible, so it closely emulates a regular two-stick setup. Basically, you move the remote at all and the view moves with it.

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Post by Esrever »

What it really needs, I think, is the ability to switch on the fly between a viewpoint-moves-with-the-crosshairs-stationary mode (like using a mouse) and a crosshairs-move-with-the-viewpoint-stationary mode (like a lightgun game). You could have one mode the default, and the other activated by holding down the B trigger or Z trigger.

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Post by Frieza2000 »

Have there been any games yet where, rather than using a cursor to interact with your character, your character IS the cursor? The DBZ fighting games would benefit from it; fans have been wishing for free-flight battles for ages but the controls never turn out too good. Zipping around the screen with the speed and precision of a pointer sounds like fun. The new NiGHTS could work the same way.

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Post by Esrever »

There have not been! It could be neat, though.

On the subject of Mario Galaxy... I've been incredibly impressed by what I've seen so far, and I think the whole planet/gravity based design has a ton of potential. But I basically agree with Pop... it seems like none of the really cool innovative aspects of this title have anything to do with the Wii's unique features.

Which is fine. It's not like every title needs to use them, just like not every DS title needs to use the stylus. But I'm worried that they'll feel obligated to basically tack on lame uses of the controller's features (like using the touch screen to select items in New Mario Bros.), rather than ones that are complimentary (like the bow aiming in Zelda).

I'm kind of surprised that, in a game that's going to be using physics and gravity so heavily, they aren't using the controller's tilt functions to manipulate the environments at all.

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Post by Green Gibbon! »

You don't have to literally wave the wiimote to get Link to attack, you know. A slight jiggle will suffice.
I know, that's why it's stupid. If Link's actions on screen actually corresponded to the way you physically wave the wand, it would've made more sense, but as it is it's just a cumbersome alternative to pressing "A". (Not that I think having Link's actions correspond to the physical position of the controller is a good idea either.)

I love the game, mind, but the slashing interface is stupid.

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