Sonic the Hedgehog 360 defecation station
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Shadow Hog
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PLAY excluded, the fact that no one has anything to nice to say about this game really bums me out in a way no other Sonic game's failing has before, mainly because I loved the feel of it. I don't have a PS3 or 360 nor do I plan to in the near future. But my dream Sonic game would probably take place in an environment just like that one, and the fact that they managed to bungle the controls, of all things, just really wrecks all of it. And of course, they'll see the critical failings as a need to make a Sonic Heroes 2 ("Look, checkerboard hills! That's what you want, right? Alright, a 9 from IGN, we're back!").
If Heroes was just a business-as-usual title that happened to misfire, Shadow was a "what-the-hell" shot in the dark, and Riders was a harmless spinoff, then this was really the first game that Sonic Team wanted to be good; all the comeback calling cards are present. And for good reason; with so many botched entries, they needed it to be good. And therefore, one could hypothesize this was the first time they really had motivation to try and try hard. But it just didn't happen. And can you really call it rushed if they had a finished product for 360, when the only thing to rush for—the PS3 launch—was pulled back?
This really looked like a game they cared about. The mood was tight, (as opposed to Shadow's dark cliché smoothie, and Heroes' devil-may-care-what-we-include-as-levels mix,) complete with music and scenery that captured a perfect Sonic vibe while letting dark elements thrive where they couldn't on Shadow because they just weren't anchored. If Sonic Team ever crafts a good or a truly great game again, I'll have a hard time getting excited for it just because it probably won't look/feel this good.
And although I do feel that it's possible for Sonic Team to get their act together yet (like I said earlier, the desire is at least present), like most of the minority still holding their breath for that big comeback, I've let out a huge exhale on this title. And it tasted awful.
If Heroes was just a business-as-usual title that happened to misfire, Shadow was a "what-the-hell" shot in the dark, and Riders was a harmless spinoff, then this was really the first game that Sonic Team wanted to be good; all the comeback calling cards are present. And for good reason; with so many botched entries, they needed it to be good. And therefore, one could hypothesize this was the first time they really had motivation to try and try hard. But it just didn't happen. And can you really call it rushed if they had a finished product for 360, when the only thing to rush for—the PS3 launch—was pulled back?
This really looked like a game they cared about. The mood was tight, (as opposed to Shadow's dark cliché smoothie, and Heroes' devil-may-care-what-we-include-as-levels mix,) complete with music and scenery that captured a perfect Sonic vibe while letting dark elements thrive where they couldn't on Shadow because they just weren't anchored. If Sonic Team ever crafts a good or a truly great game again, I'll have a hard time getting excited for it just because it probably won't look/feel this good.
And although I do feel that it's possible for Sonic Team to get their act together yet (like I said earlier, the desire is at least present), like most of the minority still holding their breath for that big comeback, I've let out a huge exhale on this title. And it tasted awful.
that was well written. And I agree with your sentiments completely. They really gave us all the illusion that they were on the right track with this one didn't they. Although I'm not sure I'd call Sonic Heroes business as usual. While it's true they seemed to not have much focus with that game, it was still about getting back to sonic's "roots," a phrase that has been thrown around way too much. The problem with this game I believe is that ST started to think really big. They wanted something epic, something huge, something cinematic. However no matter how much gloss they put over this game, it's gameplay faults could never be covered. They need to spend time soley on a gaming experience as much as it pains me to say it. Because after all, who cares how lavishly your story is told if no one wants to even play your game. In order for things to fall back into place, I feel that they need to create a very simple, gameplay driven experience. Sonic Wii might just do the trick.
Yes, but there wasn't an inherent need to get back to the roots. It did follow an epic world-at-stake game that threw the classic feel on the back burner at times, but I think Heroes was trying to serve more as SA2's counterpoint than its remedy.Radrappy wrote:[...] I'm not sure I'd call Sonic Heroes business as usual. While it's true they seemed to not have much focus with that game, it was still about getting back to sonic's "roots," a phrase that has been thrown around way too much.
And they always have. Every game parades new characters, and an ending that comes out of left field, and yet, is totally predictable. Everything is on the line, the enemy will quadruple in size, and you will be super. The problem is they've hit a wall, and they just can't pour it on any thicker at the climax. It's like watching Spinal Tap; they all think their amps really go to eleven.The problem with this game I believe is that ST started to think really big. They wanted something epic, something huge, something cinematic.
Agreed, but once again, it's control that maimed this entry, too. Whether it's an epic gaming event like this one was hyped to be, or a humble fun little number; bad level design and poor control don't go well with either. It's like saying pinching a turd on top of a Thanksgiving turkey is disgusting; but at the same time, it really adds that finishing touch to a good tuna on rye.In order for things to fall back into place, I feel that they need to create a very simple, gameplay driven experience. Sonic Wii might just do the trick.
But if they do shape up for the Wii, then I will have that tuna fish sandwich. Hold the poo.
Oh, and what's with all the hatred of Snake? Come on. Really. Come on.
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MegaKitsune
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chriscaffee
- Posts: 2021
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I'll be honest. This title never had me fooled. After Heroes and Shadow, I really didn't see the series recovering any time soon, if at all. The original screenshots had good graphics but that wasn't anything special. Once the whole princess stuff and realistic-Eggman white-Shadow and Fire-Chaos were revealed I pretty much lost interest.
Sonic was never a character-driven epic back in the day, it was an action-driven epic. Crazy shit was happening and that is why it was epic. It had nothing to do with Princesses and magical demons and time dimensions. It had to do with ripping off Star Wars and DBZ, good art direction, solid platforming, a charismatic main character who could pull off cute and badass at the same time.
I still can't decide whether Sonic Adventure or Sonic Adventure 2 was the last good Sonic game. SA2 started the downhill trend the way I see it, but I think it still stands on its own.
Sonic was never a character-driven epic back in the day, it was an action-driven epic. Crazy shit was happening and that is why it was epic. It had nothing to do with Princesses and magical demons and time dimensions. It had to do with ripping off Star Wars and DBZ, good art direction, solid platforming, a charismatic main character who could pull off cute and badass at the same time.
I still can't decide whether Sonic Adventure or Sonic Adventure 2 was the last good Sonic game. SA2 started the downhill trend the way I see it, but I think it still stands on its own.
I’m sure the PS3 version will have 80% of the bugs fixedJames McGeachie wrote:Haha, yeah just like Sonic Adventure DX fixed all the problems of Sonic Adventure! Sega are great at using extra time to iron out flaws and glitches, wouldn't doubt them for a second.Arcade wrote:I’m sure the PS3 version will have 80% of the bugs fixed.
I always forget to use "italic" when doing ironic comments…
PS: Thinking about it better, a lame game with good CGI almost always gets better sales tan a CGI movie...
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Brazillian Cara
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I really, really hope this is the last time you mention Sonic's height in this game.SegaSonic wrote: Sonic's size is normal, he is still 3 feet because he still looks directly into peoples crotches.
I can't say I'm surprised by the end result- in a way, we all knew this was going to happen (small particles of hope aside). But I'll still probably try it when I get the chance (and make a trip to Juiz de Fora).
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BlazeHedgehog
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MiraiTails
- Posts: 250
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Wow. That sure is a lot of complainng.
Has anyone bothered to play the game long enough to beat Silver's story?
Iblis keeps knocking out my foothold and killing me. I'm at the point where he's got about 1/3 of his life left and there's only one section of foothold. He keeps taking it out with either the giant rock or the smash attack.
I must be missing something. Can someone help me out?
By the way, Here's what I think of the game:
First the bad: (not really in any sort of order)
-There are too many loading screens and the wait time is unacceptably long. (20 sec. each)
-Tails' game play has issues (first person view) This may be because I have been accidentally holding down the attack button, which switches to first-person for Tails/Rouge. I'm not sure.
-There is a very occasional pit death or glitch death. Much less than Sonic Adventure 1/2/Sonic Heroes.
-There is a moderate amount of slowdown when lots of things are happening/exploding at once. This happens maybe 40% of the time that the screen is busy with enemies. There are also occassional "hicups" when you're running around the towns.
-The towns are too big, and the map too small, so finding where to go next is often a huge pain.
-Lip syncing is sometimes off during cut scenes and one or two grammar/translation errors when talking to the people in town.
Now the good:
Everything else about the game is solid at worst, excellent at best. That's right. Everything. The game doesn't deserve such harsh treatment.
Also note: Sonic controls fine, nothing like the demo. The high speed areas are great fun, once you get used to them. They seem to me like the perfect way to make a 3D Sonic game.
Has anyone bothered to play the game long enough to beat Silver's story?
Iblis keeps knocking out my foothold and killing me. I'm at the point where he's got about 1/3 of his life left and there's only one section of foothold. He keeps taking it out with either the giant rock or the smash attack.
I must be missing something. Can someone help me out?
By the way, Here's what I think of the game:
First the bad: (not really in any sort of order)
-There are too many loading screens and the wait time is unacceptably long. (20 sec. each)
-Tails' game play has issues (first person view) This may be because I have been accidentally holding down the attack button, which switches to first-person for Tails/Rouge. I'm not sure.
-There is a very occasional pit death or glitch death. Much less than Sonic Adventure 1/2/Sonic Heroes.
-There is a moderate amount of slowdown when lots of things are happening/exploding at once. This happens maybe 40% of the time that the screen is busy with enemies. There are also occassional "hicups" when you're running around the towns.
-The towns are too big, and the map too small, so finding where to go next is often a huge pain.
-Lip syncing is sometimes off during cut scenes and one or two grammar/translation errors when talking to the people in town.
Now the good:
Everything else about the game is solid at worst, excellent at best. That's right. Everything. The game doesn't deserve such harsh treatment.
Also note: Sonic controls fine, nothing like the demo. The high speed areas are great fun, once you get used to them. They seem to me like the perfect way to make a 3D Sonic game.
Last edited by MiraiTails on Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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MiraiTails
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MiraiTails
- Posts: 250
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BlazeHedgehog wrote:I am more unhappy with your product than I have been with any videogame in my entire lifetime.
That's pretty serious.I guess I can't honestly say that the complaints in your letter are unfounded. When it comes down to it, I suppose I've just stopped expecting a polished Sonic game. Since SA, I've gotten used to various problems and come to accept them as normal. The fact of the matter is, I am enjoying playing this game about as much as I enjoyed Sonic Adventure when I first got it. The only thing anyone can do is play the game and judge it for themselves.
Last edited by MiraiTails on Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
I mostly agree with MT, however, there are some other complaints:
1) Sonic's chase scene stages suck. Really bad. Maybe we shouldn't have asked them to take the automation out of the loops n' stuff, because we die without that. Imagine SA2's bosses in 3D and thrice as hard and frustrating.
2) People complaining about Sonic having too much momentum can rejoice, kind of. Sonic handles MUCH heavier on the ground. This means it takes a lot more time to work up on speed, and unfortunately a lot more time to slow down. It actually does feel like original S1 in 3D, unfortunately - it doesn't work as well in practice as it does in paper.
3) The new version of the somersault sucks. Now you can hardly control where you're going.
4) Silver's game, playstyle, and story are ironically the best things about the game. While Sonic controls like a slightly crappier and slower version of SA2 Sonic, Silver actually works quite well on several levels. The more puzzle oriented sections of his game are satisfying without being cheap, and his moves compliment the bottomless pit design of the 3-D Sonic games perfectly. It's like playing a really good platformer that has nothing to do with Sonic, but is still awesome. The targeting system, hovering system, and event manipulation system all work perfectly for Silver. I'd be all for a Silver the Hedgehog spinoff.
If anything, it feels like they spent most of their time making Silver's game and then threw the rest together in a half-assed way using the Shadow engine. If they tweaked Sonic's controls, reduced loadtimes, and smoothed out some things, this would've been THE game. You get the feeling they actually TRIED this time, which is more than you can say for Heroes. However, this game also reeks of "We need to have this shipped out in time for Christmas, so toss everything together".
Oh, and the Amigo section works best with Blaze and Silver, too. Playing through Sonic and switching feels like "Here's a half-decent platformer, now play as a shitty shooting character that we threw together." Silver's game on the other hand is like "Enjoy the puzzles and the fun thrill of flinging enemies around? Here, have this small decent high-speed section as a treat."
So yeah, Sonic's game handles like something between Heroes and SA2. Silver's game handles like something that arguably is too good to be associated with the rest of this game.
Oh, and I'm not fond of Silver's character. It's like the whiny Luke Skywalker before he becomes a Jedi. At least he's not Shadow Jr like it looked like.
Anyone understand if Silver and Blaze are in a parallel world like in Rush or the future or what? Or is Rush now less canon than StH 360? Just curious, because Blaze is the only character I've really liked since Knuckles was introduced.
Oh yes, some other points:
1) The Load times really are ridiculous. To give you an idea of how:
20 second load for adventure field
20 second load initiated before each cutscene in adventure field.
20 second load AFTER each cutscene in adventure field.
20 second load after accepting mini quest.
20 second load after INSTRUCTIONS for miniquest, before the actual loading begins for the quest.
That's right, they make you sit through a loading screen to get instructions before miniquests. The instruction sequences consist of a bland human model gesturing slightly and a bit of text, after which another loading screen appears.
Level design is slightly better than any of the previous Sonics with more places to explore and branch off of, although with Sonic's crappier handling, you'll hardly notice it.
1) Sonic's chase scene stages suck. Really bad. Maybe we shouldn't have asked them to take the automation out of the loops n' stuff, because we die without that. Imagine SA2's bosses in 3D and thrice as hard and frustrating.
2) People complaining about Sonic having too much momentum can rejoice, kind of. Sonic handles MUCH heavier on the ground. This means it takes a lot more time to work up on speed, and unfortunately a lot more time to slow down. It actually does feel like original S1 in 3D, unfortunately - it doesn't work as well in practice as it does in paper.
3) The new version of the somersault sucks. Now you can hardly control where you're going.
4) Silver's game, playstyle, and story are ironically the best things about the game. While Sonic controls like a slightly crappier and slower version of SA2 Sonic, Silver actually works quite well on several levels. The more puzzle oriented sections of his game are satisfying without being cheap, and his moves compliment the bottomless pit design of the 3-D Sonic games perfectly. It's like playing a really good platformer that has nothing to do with Sonic, but is still awesome. The targeting system, hovering system, and event manipulation system all work perfectly for Silver. I'd be all for a Silver the Hedgehog spinoff.
If anything, it feels like they spent most of their time making Silver's game and then threw the rest together in a half-assed way using the Shadow engine. If they tweaked Sonic's controls, reduced loadtimes, and smoothed out some things, this would've been THE game. You get the feeling they actually TRIED this time, which is more than you can say for Heroes. However, this game also reeks of "We need to have this shipped out in time for Christmas, so toss everything together".
Oh, and the Amigo section works best with Blaze and Silver, too. Playing through Sonic and switching feels like "Here's a half-decent platformer, now play as a shitty shooting character that we threw together." Silver's game on the other hand is like "Enjoy the puzzles and the fun thrill of flinging enemies around? Here, have this small decent high-speed section as a treat."
So yeah, Sonic's game handles like something between Heroes and SA2. Silver's game handles like something that arguably is too good to be associated with the rest of this game.
Oh, and I'm not fond of Silver's character. It's like the whiny Luke Skywalker before he becomes a Jedi. At least he's not Shadow Jr like it looked like.
Anyone understand if Silver and Blaze are in a parallel world like in Rush or the future or what? Or is Rush now less canon than StH 360? Just curious, because Blaze is the only character I've really liked since Knuckles was introduced.
Oh yes, some other points:
1) The Load times really are ridiculous. To give you an idea of how:
20 second load for adventure field
20 second load initiated before each cutscene in adventure field.
20 second load AFTER each cutscene in adventure field.
20 second load after accepting mini quest.
20 second load after INSTRUCTIONS for miniquest, before the actual loading begins for the quest.
That's right, they make you sit through a loading screen to get instructions before miniquests. The instruction sequences consist of a bland human model gesturing slightly and a bit of text, after which another loading screen appears.
Level design is slightly better than any of the previous Sonics with more places to explore and branch off of, although with Sonic's crappier handling, you'll hardly notice it.
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BlazeHedgehog
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It's absolutely true, though. No game I've ever bought has dissapointed me as much as this game has. Not even Sonic Heroes, or hell, even Sonic Shuffle.MiraiTails wrote::lol: That's pretty serious.BlazeHedgehog wrote:I am more unhappy with your product than I have been with any videogame in my entire lifetime.
What, you like that you mysteriously have no air control during mach speed sections? It pleases you to see an amigo character respawn next to you, only to suddenly lay down and die (where their dead body remains, forever)? You actually like playing as Knuckles, where you have to stop moving every few of feet, hold a button for a couple seconds, and then release just to make anything resembling a successful attack? You enjoyed hunting for 3 keys as Rouge, without any radar or hints? What about yet another town mission where they make you run through an arbitrary number of rings in a limited amount of time (bringing forth bad memories of Superman 64)?
Because I, quite simply, did not.
You do and you don't. It's very obvious this game was probably rushed out the door for christmas, when it needed another 3-9 months of development. As I mentioned, you do see faint glimmers of "Hey, that's cool", but so much bullshit ends up piled on top of it, more than any Sonic game I've ever played, it's almost impossible to see at times.Zeta wrote:You get the feeling they actually TRIED this time, which is more than you can say for Heroes.
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MegaKitsune
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- Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 3:17 pm
Ever consider that it might have been a money hungry SEGA that released it too early, and not a lazy Sonic Team? I think the general consensus is the last good 3D sonic game was SA2, correct? Well that was when they had the Dreamcast still and had a little more money to toss around. Nowdays, if SEGA spends too much on a high-profile title and doesn't get it out the door when they say it will be, they lose money and their ass is in hot water with the console makers (because console makers get a certain percentage of cash off of the game sales, so naturally, DNF-style delaying games don't fly).
So I wouldn't get too hard on Sonic Team and send them angry letters and shit, because you are most likely preaching to the choir.
So I wouldn't get too hard on Sonic Team and send them angry letters and shit, because you are most likely preaching to the choir.
