Let's have an argument about game design

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Popcorn
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Let's have an argument about game design

Post by Popcorn »

There's a game I suspect a lot of people here haven't played, and it's called Deus Ex. Even though it sold bucketloads and is a lot of people's favourite game ever, it only really found any footing on its home territory, the PC, and I know a lot of GHZers don't have much truck with that side of the industry. Deus Ex was one of only about three PC games I enjoyed (or even played) in the past four or five years, and recently I came across this interview with its creator, Warren Spector. You can read it in its entirety here, although much of it won't be of relevance to anyone unfamilair with his work.

Spector is a fierce advocate of including multiple solutions to any given problem in his games, and I think he puts forward a fascinating case:
Earlier this month, we talked to Valve Software about Half-Life 2: Episode One and all manner of things to do with game development. At one stage, Gabe Newell said that Valve wanted to "get people through as much entertainment as possible".

"This is an argument I have with Warren Spector," he said. "He builds a game that you can play through six different times. So that means that people pay for the game, but don't get to play five sixths of the game, which I feel is a mistake."
Eurogamer: There's a certain irony that you're working with Valve when it's clear that Gabe Newell has an almost polar opposite design philosophy to yours. As you know, he firmly believes that gamers should get to experience "as much entertainment as possible", but that making something where players may miss five sixths of the game is a "mistake". He says, "You spend all this time to build stuff most players will never ever see." That's a pretty wholesale rejection of your company's mantra of allowing players to craft their own unique experiences through in-game choices, don't you think? Who's right here?

Warren Spector: Well, I'M right, of course! No, seriously, there's clearly room for a variety of approaches to game design - god, it'd be boring if we all believed the same stuff and made the same kind of game! Fact is, I've been having this argument with Gabe for, oh, let's see... how long have I known him? Nine years? Yeah, all that time. And before that, I used to argue with Richard Garriott and others at Origin about the same damn thing. I'll go to my grave believing I'm right.

But, really, I find the idea that one design philosophy is "right" and another "wrong" (or even that one is better than another) incredibly odd. I mean, is Star Wars better than The Godfather? Is Lord of the Rings better than Goodfellas? Should Stephen Spielberg make nothing but action-adventure movies because they make more money than his more "serious" efforts? Should we elevate Tom Clancy or Dan Brown to the top of the writing heap and stop reading Shakespeare? Does anyone think all music should be aimed at the top of the Billboard charts? I sure don't want to live in a world where everyone sounds like Britney Spears... oh, wait, I already do... Anyway, you get my point...
Eurogamer: Is it really a waste of development time to give player choice, and how do you persuade the player to come back and play things a different way? Rather than miss out on five sixths of the content, tempt them to play the game six times...

Warren Spector: Wow, lots of points to address here - this is going to take some words...

First, and most trivial, I've never said that players should see one-sixth of your content. My "rule" has always been that every player should see about 75 per cent of your content, with another 25 per cent reserved for unique player experience. That's kind of a dopey measure, in a sense, because it implies that the best way to differentiate player experience is to handcraft a lot of paths through a map and a bunch of branching dialogue for NPCs to spout.

There are other ways to get at unique experience that don't require massive amounts of hand-crafted content. But I do believe that generating some content, knowing everyone won't see it, has huge value.

For players, a multipath/multisolution game offers the knowledge that if they're clever they will see and do things no one else has ever seen or done. How can you not want to play a game like that? A year after we shipped Deus Ex, I saw someone solve a particular game problem in a way I'd never seen anyone try before, and I was sitting there with him wondering if his solution would work. I mean, I helped make the game, and I'd played through that part of the game a hundred times and watched probably a thousand playthroughs and I was seeing something I'd never seen before. No game-on-rails or rollercoaster ride can possibly touch that for a thrill!

And check out the forums where people talk about how they solved a particular problem and others respond in amazement that they'd never thought to try that approach. Listen to people debate what one endgame choice said about you as a person, as opposed to what another endgame would have said...

That is so much cooler than listening to people agree how cool it was when they all killed some monster in exactly the same way, or got across some chasm in exactly the same way, or solved some goofy puzzle in exactly the same way.

Beyond that, multipath/multisolution games offer players who aren't great at combat, say, another option (stealth, dialogue, hacking - whatever).

They can keep playing your game instead of throwing a controller or mouse across the room in frustration. I mean, not to pick on Half-Life 2 (which I happen to enjoy immensely), but if I'm not good enough to get past an enemy or a carefully crafted puzzle my only option is to stop playing, and maybe never buy another Half-Life game. In Deus Ex (for another example I enjoy immensely!) if you can't fight your way past a problem, try something else.

Something else will work. (There were no puzzles in DX, so I can't address that - we only had problems, and problems, by their very nature, are open to solution in a variety of ways.) Anyway, giving players ways to keep playing your game seems like a good idea to me. How is that a waste of time and money?

So, to try to wrap this up in something less than book length, I don't believe it's ever a waste of time to give players real choices, rather than fake ones. If all you're doing is putting players on rails and rocketing them through your story, why not just build a roller coaster or make a movie? If the only choice a player gets to make is which weapon to use to kill a bad guy, you've completely wasted that player's time. Roller coaster rides are immense amounts of fun, but really, all they do is provide an adrenalin rush and a moment's distraction from the workaday world. Games can be more. Movies are terrific storytelling devices - I love movies - but movies already exist. I don't need to make them. (Well, I kinda want to produce a movie someday, but that's another matter entirely...) If all you're doing is telling yourstory to players (with the added attraction of getting to pick a gun once in a while), why bother?

If you're not "wasting" development time by allowing players to explore your world, advance the plot their way, test behaviours and see the consequences, I believe you're wasting players' time - and that's a far, far worse sin than wasting some time and dollars on stuff some players might not see.
It's interesting that Valve's Half-Life series (of which I am a huge fan) is referenced in drawing an almost direct inversion to Spector's design philosophy. For those heathens who never played Half-Life 2, the game is profoundly scripted; you're pushed through scenarios that unfold identically every time. The player's only responsibility is to tick the boxes given to him: step 1, step 2, step 3, all the way to step 50,000 in the finale. There's very rarely more than one or two approaches to any given problem. Interestingly, the recently-released HL2: Episode One expansion features a new commentary mode where someone explained that, in one particular case, where Valve had deliberately included an alternative solution to a problem, those playtesters who exploited it didn't grasp that it was an intentional facet of the game; they thought it was an 'exploit', a piece of lazy game design. The guy said, more or less, that "where we wanted to make the player feel smart for finding an alternative route to success, they just thought we hadn't done our job properly".

So what's everyone's take on this? I've got a few half-baked opinions myself-- as I inevitably do-- but I'm going to wait until they reach total fruition before I deploy them. My initial reaction is that the two design approaches, linear and non-linear, offer altogether separate advantages and that neither one can be deemed necessarily 'better' outside of personal preference. But I see Spector's argument. I'm still at war with myself over the use of cut scenes in games; is it not the video game's duty to fulfil the potential unique to its medium-- that is, player interactivity-- rather than echo the techniques that can be found in superior capacities in film? It strikes me that this is a similar argument, because Spector seems to be suggesting that in offering the player a myriad of possibilities, rather than to take Valve's strictly linear approach, the developer can more efficiently capitalise on their medium's unique talents.

Where I think Newell kind of trips up is his fear of the player missing out on a sizeable portion of the game. It occurs to me that if the player's ability to miss portions of the experience-- to make decisions at the cost of other possibilities-- ultimately improves their experience, it may well be worthwhile. But HL2's scripted progression offers its own undeniable benefits; I've never played a game whose balletic precision offers such a breathtaking sense of purpose, direction and, perhaps most of all, place. Such things are perhaps lost with a more open-ended design. Deus Ex's much-derided sequel, Invisible War, for example, took that philosophy too far; its design accommodated player choice to such an extent that no significant decision, in terms of (for example) whether or not to ally with one organisation or another, ultimately impacted anything at all, since in order to meaningfully expand on that decision would effectively necessitate the production of ten different games. If you allow the player's journey to be too open, then there simply aren't enough boundaries to contain him and you end up having to make their 'decisions' completely illusory.

Well?

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Post by Segaholic2 »

What's there to argue about? Your observation that both methods have advantages and disadvantages is pretty much the only real conclusion here.

Deus Ex and its sequel were developed right here in Austin. Too bad the sequel was awful and Warren left soon after, and Ion Storm itself was shut down shortly following.

If you want to get down to it, maybe Newell actually is right, seeing how his company's still around. *teehee*

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Post by Popcorn »

Segaholic2 wrote:What's there to argue about? Your observation that both methods have advantages and disadvantages is pretty much the only real conclusion here.
Not if you disagree.

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Post by Light Speed »

I kind of lean more to the Newell approach. I pretty much never play through video games a second time nowadays. I don't know why, games that I absolutely love, I'll beat and never touch again (which makes you wonder why I insist on buying them). My point is that I would be one of those people that would never get to play 5/6ths of the game. Also I think just because games have cut-scenes and are linear doesn't mean they aren't a seperate medium from movies. After playing as a character for 20 or so hours you have far more of a connection to a character rather than just watch him dance around onscreen for awhile. That is just a personal preference obviously, though I see the appeal of having multiple outcomes.

Have any of you guys ever played any games that have multiple endings/story branches? I can't think of any I've played, but I know every console has a handful of them. What did you think and did you bother playing through more than once?

Didn't Shadow have multiple paths? I guess that one doesn't count though seeing as the crowd I'm addressing is far more interested in the Sonic universe even if the story sucks.

By the way, I have never played Deus Ex or Half Life 2 since I'm not a huge fan of playing games on the PC. I just don't like sitting at my desk with a mouse an keyboard, I'd much rather play sitting on a couch with a controller. I'll play RTS games on the PC cause they suck with keyboards, but I don't even like RTS games anymore. I played WoW for 11 months, but that game also couldn't really be played with a controller. Anyway, the point of this paragraph was to ask, would you recommend playing HL2 without playing 1? I have access to my friends Steam account meaning I can play Half Life 1 and 2 for free, in fact I have HL1:Source and HL2 installed on this very comptuer. I tried playing HL1 and got an hour in or so and stopped, not really sure why. I think 2 would suck me in more, but I'm one of those guys that have to do things right and play all the previous games first. Also if HL2 comes out on the 360 like I've heard, I might just prefer to play it on that since it'll most likely be very close to the PC version.

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Post by Dache »

Light Speed wrote:Anyway, the point of this paragraph was to ask, would you recommend playing HL2 without playing 1?
You can, but a decent amount of HL1-related stuff ingame will go way over your head. Stick with 1, it's still well worth playing through.

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Post by Popcorn »

Light Speed wrote:
Have any of you guys ever played any games that have multiple endings/story branches? I can't think of any I've played, but I know every console has a handful of them. What did you think and did you bother playing through more than once?
I don't think they're that uncommon, are they? Deus Ex is one of those games, and as it happens I'm currently playing it through for a second time. I don't know how differently I'm doing things-- I'm taking the choices I like the look of, and I don't know if they're very different from the first time I played it. To be honest, despite the variety of approaches to any given DX problem, some of them are more efficient than others; even though you can run around guns blazing HL-style, it usually pays to take a stealth option, for example.

I don't think I've ever really replayed a game or even part of a game just because it has branching paths, though. I only ever do it 'cause it was fun. I've played Half-Life 2 several times now, and even though it's pretty much the same every time, it doesn't seem to be getting that old. I do replay games from time to time anyway... now that I think about it, I don't think branching paths or multiple endings really have much effect on that.
Anyway, the point of this paragraph was to ask, would you recommend playing HL2 without playing 1?
I guess you'll have a bit more of a grasp of the HL2 plot if you've played HL1, but it's definitely not a big deal, and I certainly still recommend HL2 even if you've not touched the first one. Either way, you can read a synopsis of HL1's plot here (but beware of HL2 spoilers too): http://members.shaw.ca/halflifestory/
I have access to my friends Steam account meaning I can play Half Life 1 and 2 for free, in fact I have HL1:Source and HL2 installed on this very comptuer. I tried playing HL1 and got an hour in or so and stopped, not really sure why. I think 2 would suck me in more, but I'm one of those guys that have to do things right and play all the previous games first.
HL2 is definitely much better than HL1 (although many people disagree, much to my bewilderment). Either way, HL1's dated quite a bit now, and HL2 is much more palatable to modern standards.
Also if HL2 comes out on the 360 like I've heard, I might just prefer to play it on that since it'll most likely be very close to the PC version.
A 360 version hasn't been announced. There is an Xbox version available, though.

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Post by Light Speed »

The 360 version that I was referring to was because of this. I guess it is just a rumor/speculation as of now.

Maybe I'll just force myself to play through HL1. With the Source engine remake I don't remember it being that difficult. The graphics of course sucked, but it wasn't unbearable.

Were you planning on commenting on my Shadow remark, Popcorn, because you pasted it in your reply without actually quoting it? Or was that just at typo?

Someone else say something so this discussion doesn' just devolve into people telling me if I should play HL1 or not.

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Post by Popcorn »

Light Speed wrote:
Were you planning on commenting on my Shadow remark, Popcorn, because you pasted it in your reply without actually quoting it? Or was that just at typo?
It was just further evidence of my increasingly awful capacity to use internet forums.

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Post by FlashTHD »

Didn't Shadow have multiple paths? I guess that one doesn't count though seeing as the crowd I'm addressing is far more interested in the Sonic universe even if the story sucks.
It was far less Deus Ex and more Outrun. The path through the story is determined by missions cleared only, not story choices. The events in the cutscenes don't change to compensate, so even if you try to carefully weave your way through so that the endings make sense, there will still be a couple that are either nearly identical or still don't work out right, and it's impossible to play through it with that object in mind and still have played every stage once (I tried).

In the case of the Shadow game, it's not worth a place in this debate. It may be open-ended, but it's a defective brand of open-ended. Thank Iizuka for that (or kick him in the shin); his name comes up in all related categories in the credits.

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Post by Senbei »

Being a child of the Playstation-Dreamcast generation, my opinions can't include anything much more current than Shenmue. That said, the genre that seems to have the most games with multiple endings or player choices would be RPGs. I mean, the original concept of role-playing games revolved around player choice. So games like Chrono Cross and Final Fantasy VII (neither of which I've played all the way through, but enough so that I have experience with them) spring immediately to mind and I realize that, even upon completing them, I really wouldn't want to play through again if the essential adventure is still the same.

Remember those "choose your own adventure" books where you were given a list of choices on every page and had to turn to page N depending on the choice you made? The idea was cool, but the end result was poor because if you made the wrong choice you'd end up in an unsatisfactory death, or worse, a boring ending and then have to start FROM THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE STORY, meaning that you'd have to read through all the same stuff you did the first time and go through a bunch of dead ends (and consequently start over) in order to get the “goodâ€￾ ending. The “goodâ€￾ ending was a satisfactory completion of the story in which your character is the hero and the antagonistic element is quelled.

RPGs with multiple endings or bonus material are like the choose-your-own-adventure books: if you want the full experience and/or the good ending, you have to play through the boring stuff to get there and probably do a lot of backtracking. In Final Fantasy VII, for example, there’s a heap of subquests you can take part in that will reward you with new characters, stories, weaponry, you name it. But it’s very easy to overlook these extras and continue through the main story without knowing you’ve missed anything, and once you’ve gone past the point of no return, the only option you have in order to get that ultimate weapon is to reboot the game and play through the same old shit ‘til you get to where you wanted to be.

It could be argued that an RPG like FFVII is technically a game on rails since there’s a main story, but I think my point is relevant. Open-ended games often involve a lot of mediocrity and a certain amount of passive-aggressiveness in trying to balance player choice and a basic story that has to be followed. Like, “sure, you can go anywhere in the city you want, but if you want something interesting to happen, you have to go HERE.â€￾ In the end, it’s not worth it to play through the game again, unless the game is really good. Like, Metal Gear Solid good. On the other hand, if a game had the ability to produce a completely unique and entertaining experience each time the “new gameâ€￾ option was hit, that’d be something to be worked up about. I hear The Elder Scrolls is the closest thing to getting to that point so far.

Well, that’s my opinion and I feel like a sap for sharing it.

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Post by Segaholic2 »

I don't think that that's necessarily true and Chrono Trigger is one of the better examples of it.

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Post by Frieza2000 »

I've become like Light Speed. I have neither the time nor, in most cases, the will to replay a game. That makes me a little biased against replay value, but I still think Senbei made a good point. Split paths that can't be back-tracked without replaying the entire game shouldn't be used in long games. Tales of Symphonia is the worst example I've experienced. If you want to unlock everything, you have to play through the 50-70 hour game 3 times. And if you want to see every scene variation, you either need to set yourself up so all of the characters' affection ratings are even enough that you can save a state before the branch and just play through the last 3 hours or you have to play through the game 8 times. That's insane.

I'm a completist, but I'm also busy. So when a game requires me to sit through the same stuff again to see a major part of it, it frustrates me.

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Post by BlazeHedgehog »

I think the primary problem with Half-Life 2, speaking specifically about putting in an "alternate solution" to a problem, is the rest of Half-Life 2 isn't terribly open - it's very straight forward, and it guides you pretty directly to your goal. Having one or two odd encounters where you can choose a different method for solving a puzzle obviously feels a bit cheap - because it's shoe-horned into this very linear experience. You expect the game to continue to be linear as everything else before it has been.

Deus Ex, in comparison, is very open-feeling. I've only played the demo, mind you, but even in the demo, the area you're given to explore is just that - it's an area. It's not really a "level" in the sense that it's always pointing you in a single direction. Thus, non-linear solutions to problems feel more natural, because you're in a non-linear environment. If Half-Life 2 was like this, mulitple solutions to a single problem wouldn't feel like such a "hack".

And it's not really so much that you're playing through games twice. Spector's description is that, if you come to a situation you cannot get past, you can try a different approach. It's like GTA: You play the game the way you want, and you maximize your fun by playing your way, rather than the game forcing you to play it's way.

But honestly? I don't care. Like Warren said, there is no "right" way. You could even say Half-Life 2 makes up for being so linear with the inclusion of the gravity gun, which expands puzzle solving and combat creativity a great deal. Nor does Half-Life 2 really pause for cutscenes, which I think is something every game should take note of - videogames currently can be some of the most engrossing entertainment, and I think the "no cutscenes" thing really helps drive home player immersion.

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Post by Light Speed »

I don't think cut-scenes are that bad. If the game is telling you a story, but you can still control the main character I could see the reason to further the plot without giving you control. The only thing that bugs me is when the cut-scene is done in beautiful CG, but the rest of the game doesn't look nearly as good. I'd rather the cut scenes be rendered in real time just so there isn't such a drastic difference.

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Post by Popcorn »

Light Speed wrote:I don't think cut-scenes are that bad. If the game is telling you a story, but you can still control the main character I could see the reason to further the plot without giving you control. The only thing that bugs me is when the cut-scene is done in beautiful CG, but the rest of the game doesn't look nearly as good. I'd rather the cut scenes be rendered in real time just so there isn't such a drastic difference.
Thing that still bothers me about cut scenes is that I think the emotinal impact and immersion is lessened when you're not controlling the game yourself. Or, rather: when the story happens to you (through your character) and you react to it through the game, then the impact is greater than if you're watching an uninteractive and scripted cut scene. But there are many things you can only achieve through the use of cut scenes, and that's my problem.

I just can't reconcile it in my head, I can't come to a conclusion. It just seems to me that if your game is driven by-- or even just includes to a significant degree-- non-interactive cut scenes then you end up with a kind of 'worst of both worlds' effect. The interactive and non-interactive sequences end up interrupting each other rather than having the whole thing flow as a cohesive experience. It's not even just a matter of it being stop/start/stop/start: you know, the actual inconvenience of having to stop and start playing, the jarring transition between interactivity and non-interactivity. It runs deeper than that... the issue has everything to do with how games manipulate and guide players, how they evoke responses. It's tricky. I can't form a solid opinion on it, and nothing scares me more than that.

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Post by firemario1001 »

Games were better when they where programmer-driven.

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Post by Frieza2000 »

I don't think cut-scenes are inherently good or bad. First of all, not all games are meant to be immersive. There are some that put you in the role of your avatar and others that just present a story that you have to earn the next chapter to. Both can use scenes in a way that further the experience they intend to create. Their use in the later is pretty obvious so for an example of the former consider Gitaroo man. The only really interesting thing U-1 does is play; controlling him when he's not playing would've been more jarring than not. I think using the scenes as transitions worked really well. It's the most immersive game I've played in a while. The only thing that might've disillusioned me would be if I didn't like U-1, which is really about playing as a character with a personality, not cut scenes.

I like immersive games more than plutonic ones, but they're just different styles. It's not a requirement. Scenes are a tool that, while arguably prone to the degradation of certain styles or even of games in general, can be employed effectively and artistically (by the single digit number of companies where games are designed by artists with souls).

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Post by Light Speed »

Popcorn wrote:Thing that still bothers me about cut scenes is that I think the emotinal impact and immersion is lessened when you're not controlling the game yourself. Or, rather: when the story happens to you (through your character) and you react to it through the game, then the impact is greater than if you're watching an uninteractive and scripted cut scene. But there are many things you can only achieve through the use of cut scenes, and that's my problem.

I just can't reconcile it in my head, I can't come to a conclusion. It just seems to me that if your game is driven by-- or even just includes to a significant degree-- non-interactive cut scenes then you end up with a kind of 'worst of both worlds' effect. The interactive and non-interactive sequences end up interrupting each other rather than having the whole thing flow as a cohesive experience. It's not even just a matter of it being stop/start/stop/start: you know, the actual inconvenience of having to stop and start playing, the jarring transition between interactivity and non-interactivity. It runs deeper than that... the issue has everything to do with how games manipulate and guide players, how they evoke responses. It's tricky. I can't form a solid opinion on it, and nothing scares me more than that.
There are a couple currently used solutions to the cut-scene problem, but I don't know if I like either. You could have cut-scenes like in Oblivion (and I think Half-Life 2, but not sure since I didn't play it) where you the game doesn't jar you from the gameplay, but just freezes your character in place while you watch the characters interact. I don't know how much I liked this, because in Oblvion you couldn't move, but you could still rotate, and I think in HL2 you could just move freely the whole time, so you could potentially miss the plot unfolding. I guess in Oblivion even though you could rotate away from the scene, it was obvious what to watch and you could always hear what was going on. However you still for the most part lose control. It does however fix the huge difference in graphics since everything is in real time. Then again, games like Halo have cut-scenes and they always render them in real time.

The second cut-scene solution would be a QTE style thing like Shenmue first implemented. I liked how it worked out in Resident Evil 4, however I found myself not really watching the story unfold as closely as normal because I was focused on getting ready to mash buttons. Also not ever scene requires a knife fight, if the scene just consists of conversation or something, why would buttons be required to be hit at all. Although if that is all the scene consists of you could just do that in game.

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Post by Shadow Hog »

Personally, I think the action-packed games work best with a Half-Life approach to cutscenes - they're there, but generally you have complete control over your character. They're actually getting pretty good at bringing the player's attention to important plot points, which Episode 1's commentary mode pointed out. Exampli grata, at one point in the run-down Citadel, you get to see one of the Synths try to fly off, but instead crash and burn really fast. Although Alyx makes a comment ("Did you SEE that?") afterwards, what they'd did to ensure the player might actually look in that direction was put a Combine soldier up in that vicinity and have them shoot at the player, drawing their attention to the Synth's actions once that soldier either was apprehended or ran off. It was a pretty inventive method, and none too bad, considering the game is pretty linear anyway.

Still, for other games, cutscenes are just fine and dandy. Like, say, LucasArts' SCUMM-based games (Day of the Tentacle, Sam and Max, Monkey Island). A lot of those games' humor just wouldn't have worked as well without the cutscenes (although a lot of the humor still comes from trying to do wacky things with your inventory or the objects around the world). Plus, thinking about it, some games you really can't implement a Half-Life approach - 2D games wouldn't pull it off so convincingly, for instance...

Anyway, as for open-endedness, having replay value is nice, especially since I find myself moving on to new games on a regular basis instead of replaying the old ones. As much as I laud them, I hardly touch the original Genny Sonic titles anymore, despite playing them regularly in my childhood... not enough new to see or do (although I still discover a new area occasionally) to keep me that interested. Time or score attacks never really were my thing (incidentally, I don't replay NiGHTS much, as awesome as it was...). Seeing new things is more up my alley. Hence, to actually give this paragraph a point (God forbid), an open-ended campaign would probably be quite good if it always gave me some new thing to do every now and then, and thus the extra time spent would likely be worth it, if it can maintain a high quality.

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Locit
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Post by Locit »

I think Shenmue did a great job of cut scene QTE's by making it somewhat obvious before you might have to react to something. Not always, but you probably weren't going to get attacked while you sat on a bench with Nozomi. I think the problem with RE4's button push scenes is that you're never really in the clear for the exposition, you're always in some sort of danger. RE by its nature sort of gets you paranoid about zombies, etc. coming out of nowhere, so it's somewhat natural you would pay more attention to that than the story sometimes.

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Post by Popcorn »

Frieza2000 wrote:...consider Gitaroo man. The only really interesting thing U-1 does is play; controlling him when he's not playing would've been more jarring than not.
Shadow Hog wrote:
Still, for other games, cutscenes are just fine and dandy. Like, say, LucasArts' SCUMM-based games (Day of the Tentacle, Sam and Max, Monkey Island). A lot of those games' humor just wouldn't have worked as well without the cutscenes (although a lot of the humor still comes from trying to do wacky things with your inventory or the objects around the world).
I think both of these games are examples where the use of cut scenes is entirely appropriate. I'm not sure how I can justify feeling that way, though, which is part of my confusion and conflicted feeling about the whole deal...

I guess my feeling, though, is that with Gitaroo Man and LucasArts' classic adventure games-- both examples of some fucking great games, I might add-- you're not so much controlling or inhabiting the character as you are guiding them. This is particularly true with the case of the LucasArts games, where instead of controlling anything you're instead making suggestions to the characters. In many of such games, the characters will actively talk to the player-- there's no illusion of control involved, and so the inclusion of cut scenes doesn't damage anything.

With Gitaroo Man, your experience is entirely impersonal-- story elements aside, it's inherently an arcade game: in mechanical terms, it's purely abstract. It's a 'game' in the traditional sense of the word-- a toy, an amusement-- whereas something like Shenmue or Half-Life somehow isn't. Where do you draw the line? I don't know.
Plus, thinking about it, some games you really can't implement a Half-Life approach - 2D games wouldn't pull it off so convincingly, for instance...
I don't see why you think that. The 2D LucasArts adventure games you mention wouldn't work with the Half-Life approach because their very design would reject them, but I don't see what it is inherent to two-dimensional planes that means you can't grant the player control at all times.

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Post by Shadow Hog »

Well, I try to think of an action game in a 2D plane, then block you off while you have somebody talking to you in a Half-Life-esque fashion. And frankly, all I can think is that it's pretty dull. Certainly, 2D could offer the emotive motions and interactivity to keep you interested while a cutscene is happening, but often they don't, and you're just left feeling "let's get on with it!" because not much gameplay-wise is happening.

Then again, I don't think it makes much sense either. There are some instances where it could work - like things crashing and blowing up in the background - but for the most part, for stuff to happen, you'd have to actually stop the gameplay for some exposition.

Alternatively, we could turn an entire game into nothing but a giant QTE. I mean, Dragon's Quest was popular for a time, wasn't it?

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Post by Popcorn »

Shadow Hog wrote:Well, I try to think of an action game in a 2D plane, then block you off while you have somebody talking to you in a Half-Life-esque fashion. And frankly, all I can think is that it's pretty dull.
I think you just lack imagination. There's nothing to say that you'd even have to be 'blocked-off while someone talks to you' at all; the game might not call for that. Even Sonic 2 had an element of an 'interactive cut-scene' (which is an uncomfortably oxymoronic and vague term) where you chased Eggman down that long corridor on the Death Egg. It was a means of showing some kind of scripted plot event, however primitive, that kept control in the hands of the player.

Eggman shouldn't be able to run as fast as Sonic, though.

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Post by Esrever »

Honestly, I think a lot of it boils down more to viewing perspective than control.

"Cut scenes" are often jarring becuase they, well... cut. They interupt the game to do something completely different. There's nothing "game-like" about them at all... they are really just tiny films that follow the conventions of regular film-making. They don't reflect the perspective or movement of the gameplay, and often, they don't reflect the LOOK of the game either. They are a completely seperate entity, and the more frequently they interupt the gameplay, the more jarring it is.

But in Sam and Max, or Monkey Island, or Half Life 2, or even Sonic 3 & Knuckles, the narrative scenes are not jarring because they don't cut. They are integrated directly into the presentation of the game, and that makes them feel more cohesive and less intrusive.

In all those examples, control is temporarily removed from the player during narrative scenes. Sometimes it is done directly, like in Sonic 3, when you lose control of Sonic completely during the between-level transition cut scenes.. And sometimes it is done indirectly, like in Half Life 2, when you maintain control during narrative scenes but are unable to affect how they unfold, and are restricted from simply abandonning them by natural environmental barriers. But both still feel "right" because they play within the rules of the game. Cut scene Sonic still runs and jumps and looks like the Sonic you control. Gordon Freeman's face isn't suddenly visible in cut scenes even though we would never see it in the rest of the game.

In my mind, the most successful game with "cinematic" cut scenes is Beyond Good and Evil. The scenes are less intrusive than other games for because the look, sound and movement of the characters and environments feels completely consistent with how they behave in the interactive portions; and because the interactive portions themselves adopt many of the conventions of cinema, such as camera pans, angle switches, focus effects and slow motion. The gameplay feels a lot like a movie, and the movies feel a lot like the game, so it's never too jarring when it jumps from one to the other.

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Post by Popcorn »

Esrever wrote: But both still feel "right" because they play within the rules of the game.
I don't think that's true. Removing control from the player is an immediate violation of 'the rules of the game'. Yes, minimising the differences between interactive and non-interactive sequences has an influence on how jarring the transition is, but I don't think that will ever be eliminated as long as there is a transition. When you think about it, there is no greater shock to the system than spontaneously wrenching control away from the player, with or without damage control. I mean, think about it, why am I suddenly not able to control Sonic? It doesn't really make any sense beyond the real reason which is "the developers wanted to show you something and couldn't work out any other way to do it". Basically, it's a betrayal of transparent game design: you shouldn't be reminded that you're playing a game. I think that cut scenes are a very easy way to break that illusion.

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