From the way it's been described so far it doesn't sound like it's criticizing the games. It sounds more like a Christian ESRB to aid whatever minority that wants to play games but doesn't want the word God in them.Popcorn wrote:I think religious belief is ridiculous, but if people wanna go with it, fine; what I take offence to here is people using their crazy-ass delusion as a foundation to criticise something (in this case video games), because it is, I feel, a plainly useless basis upon which to criticise something.
This is why Christianity is made fun of
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There is an implicit criticism of games with supposedly 'anti-Christian' features in them. Whether or not they're criticising the medium as a whole (I don't think they are) isn't even my point: the site talks bollocks, and no amount of 'well that's their belief' pussyfooting can forgive that. If someone's talking shit they're talking shit.From the way it's been described so far it doesn't sound like it's criticizing the games. It sounds more like a Christian ESRB to aid whatever minority that wants to play games but doesn't want the word God in them.
Edit: for God's sake Zara would you get a fucking grip.
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I don't understand you. They rate games' religious content. In Windwaker's case, the guy found it objectionable. And you find this terrible? You just said you don't care if people choose religion, so why should you care if they evaluate things based on it?Popcorn wrote:There is an implicit criticism of games with supposedly 'anti-Christian' features in them. Whether or not they're criticising the medium as a whole (I don't think they are) isn't even my point: the site talks bollocks, and no amount of 'well that's their belief' pussyfooting can forgive that. If someone's talking shit they're talking shit.
This doesn't fit anywhere with the website. They don't say "YOU CAN'T DISAGREE WITH THIS WE ARE RIGHT" anywhere. The guy says several times "I'm going to get criticized for this, but I feel...", then goes on to list his grievances.I'm all for people believing whatever the hell they like but they also have to accept that people are occasionally going to disagree with them.
The only reason I could find for being angered by this would be that one is an anti-religious bigot.religious review guy wrote:My review may be harsh, yes, but I don't compromise and I tend to tell it like it is regardless of whether or not I liked it. Again, I repeat myself that The Legend of Zelda: The Windwaker is a fantastic game in the world's standards... but from a Christian viewpoint it falls short where it counts. Honestly, that saddens me greatly.
I don't understand you. They rate games' religious content. In Windwaker's case, the guy found it objectionable. And you find this terrible?
I care if people 'choose religion' insofar as I think they are choosing something that is illogical, ultimately selfish, and occasionally harmful. I think they are making the wrong choice. That's a different argument, and we can have that one too if you like, but for the purposes of the moment just understand that I think religious belief is wrong.You just said you don't care if people choose religion, so why should you care if they evaluate things based on it?
That isn't, however, at odds with my ultimate belief that people should be free to hold whatever opinions that they like, however bizarre. However, such opinions are subject to free criticism. Here Dill is criticising a bizarre belief. Whether or not that makes for an interesting thread is a different argument, but I don't like this suggestion that he isn't right to make fun of someone's idiotic worldview. I think this website is a sham and encourages the judgement of video games based on groundless and irrelevant criteria.
Really? The review says "Well, this is a good game, but unfortunately it's anti-Christian so that means I can't like it". That's bullshit. That is not, I think, a good critical appraisal of anything, because the subject's adherance to the reviewer's religious beliefs should have absolutely no bearing on anyone's capacity to enjoy it. The religious beliefs the reviews are based on are bunk and, therefore, so is the whole site.This doesn't fit anywhere with the website. They don't say "YOU CAN'T DISAGREE WITH THIS WE ARE RIGHT" anywhere. The guy says several times "I'm going to get criticized for this, but I feel...", then goes on to list his grievances.[/quotes]
That's nothing to do with my argument. A few people slammed Dill on the first page for belittling the site's agenda, and that's what I'm complaining about. Dill is right, the site is wrong.
The only reason I could find for being angered by this would be that one is an anti-religious bigot.religious review guy wrote:My review may be harsh, yes, but I don't compromise and I tend to tell it like it is regardless of whether or not I liked it. Again, I repeat myself that The Legend of Zelda: The Windwaker is a fantastic game in the world's standards... but from a Christian viewpoint it falls short where it counts. Honestly, that saddens me greatly.
I think the site does a good job of keeping the quality of the game and the anti-Christian undertones mentioned seperately. The site is just there to show some things that Christians might be affended by. The site is made for Christians, so you don't have to go there. Just like no one can force you to read anything religious (including this thread) if you don't want to.
Popcorn, you should try and take a Theology or Philosophy course sometime. I think you'd find it delightful. From what you've posted you don't seem to have given much thought to why people practice religion or believe in anything (I perfer to assume this rather than question your intelligents).
I'm kind of suprised that someone would speak so hypocritically. You seem to be saying that someone shouldn't be evaluating things based on their beliefs. But that's what you believe so therefore you shouldn't be evaluating this site based on your beliefs. You don't think people should have religious beliefs, yet you're forcing your beliefs on others.
Popcorn, you should try and take a Theology or Philosophy course sometime. I think you'd find it delightful. From what you've posted you don't seem to have given much thought to why people practice religion or believe in anything (I perfer to assume this rather than question your intelligents).
I'm kind of suprised that someone would speak so hypocritically. You seem to be saying that someone shouldn't be evaluating things based on their beliefs. But that's what you believe so therefore you shouldn't be evaluating this site based on your beliefs. You don't think people should have religious beliefs, yet you're forcing your beliefs on others.
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Popcorn it doesn't seem to me that you so much respect everyone's right to believe what they want as you tolerate it. Respect does not qualify, in my eyes at least, of slamming other people's worldviews when you can't substantiate your own. There is a reason that there are both theists and atheists: nobody knows truth, nobody even knows if it is obtainable let alone how to obtain it.
Labeling Christianity as "idiotic" is in no way respectful. It is disrespectful to the people who believe in it and it is disrespectful to the belief in general. It is even disrespectful the teachings of Christ himself, who even if he was just a man still had some good ideas about how humans should live.
I'd be interested in two things if you would:
1) How can you reconcile your disrespectful attitude towards religion with your claim that you respect the right for anyone to believe whatever they want?
2) Your argument against religion.
Labeling Christianity as "idiotic" is in no way respectful. It is disrespectful to the people who believe in it and it is disrespectful to the belief in general. It is even disrespectful the teachings of Christ himself, who even if he was just a man still had some good ideas about how humans should live.
I'd be interested in two things if you would:
1) How can you reconcile your disrespectful attitude towards religion with your claim that you respect the right for anyone to believe whatever they want?
2) Your argument against religion.
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I dunno about Pop, but <a href="http://www.godhatesfags.com/">this pretty much stands for itself.</a> And <a href="http://www.family.org/">this</a>, but it's not as obvious.chriscaffee wrote:Your argument against religion.
chriscaffee wrote:Popcorn it doesn't seem to me that you so much respect everyone's right to believe what they want as you tolerate it. Respect does not qualify, in my eyes at least, of slamming other people's worldviews when you can't substantiate your own.
Uh, I don't respect religious beliefs. I think they're zany and wacky. I am fully capable of respecting anyone who is religious, as I am fully capable of respecting anyone who disagrees with me (everyone). Our very own Segaholic believes all kinds of fruity shit and as far as I can tell I don't want him sent to the gas chambers just yet. There is a difference between 'respecting' someone, 'respecting' their beliefs, and 'respecting' their right to hold their beliefs.Labeling Christianity as "idiotic" is in no way respectful. It is disrespectful to the people who believe in it and it is disrespectful to the belief in general. It is even disrespectful disrespectful respect respect oh my god everyone's opinion is equal no person can possibly be wrong how can you criticise anyone for ever saying anything holy fuck
As Penguin has just explained, though, what I'm defending here is someone's right to hold a belief. I'm not saying all opinions are correct, I'm saying most of them are wrong but that everyone should be allowed to have one, as long as they're willing to defend it. To recap: if I think your opinion is horseshit I will not respect it, sorry, and nor will you respect mine if you think mine is horseshit.
Yes; some people are right and some people are wrong. Okay, I'm not claiming atheism is necessarily 'correct', but I am saying that just because two people disagree on something doesn't mean neither of them can be right. Atheism may not give any answers, but at least it doesn't claim to.There is a reason that there are both theists and atheists:
I don't see how the two are mutually incompatible. To deny people the freedom to have an opinion other than my own would be egotistical and dictatorial beyond even my standards. There are all sorts of arguments in favour of free speech and free thought-- John Stuart Mill has some good ones-- and I think that the only way to get to the truth of any kind of matter is to argue about it in some capacity. What I'm saying is: yes, everyone should be able to believe what they want; but no, that doesn't make everyone right.1) How can you reconcile your disrespectful attitude towards religion with your claim that you respect the right for anyone to believe whatever they want?
Look, I don't want to get into a religious debate because nobody enjoys them and believe me when I say I've had a lot of them. They are the ultimate cliche of intellectual (or non-intellectual) debate. But in a nutshell, my peeve with religion is that it is a kind of self-inflicted 'anti-thinking', a complete surrender to irrationality; the total giving up of the self to a concept that cannot possibly exist in the way religious people think it can. Faith is the very opposite of rational thinking and I think, as such, it is damaging. At best it is a simple case of selfish denial, and at its worst, well... see 9/11 and God Hates Fags.2) Your argument against religion.
Oh man.Popcorn, you should try and take a Theology or Philosophy course sometime. I think you'd find it delightful. From what you've posted you don't seem to have given much thought to why people practice religion or believe in anything (I perfer to assume this rather than question your intelligents).
Last edited by Popcorn on Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Because every Christian wholeheartedly agrees with and endorses those websites.Delphine wrote:I dunno about Pop, but <a href="http://www.godhatesfags.com/">this pretty much stands for itself.</a> And <a href="http://www.family.org/">this</a>, but it's not as obvious.
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While I'd agree with you that an extremist example of a phenomenon is not really a good indication of the thing on a larger scale, I would say that Fred Phelps and his wonderful friends are a good example of the kind of shite faith can trawl up.Segaholic2 wrote:So you're going to discredit an entire group of people because a small representation of them are deluded and idiotic? In that case you might as well just hate everybody (expecting har har response).
The other thing is-- and I flinch in suggesting this, because I know it's personal-- I would argue that Fred Phelps' beliefs are no more nonsensical than that of even a very liberal Christian. The whole process of religious belief is based on a principle of irrationality to the extent where you can put your trust in even the most laughably abstract of concepts and find it no less possible to prove than mainstream Christianity. Religion is like a free ticket to believing anything you like; it's a 'get-out-of-intellectual-debate-free-card' of non-thought.
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The thing is, I don't think you can even define Fred Phelps and his like as "Christians" as they blatantly disregard the most important teaching of the New Testament: Love your neighbor as you love yourself. At the very <i>most</i> he's a really shitty Christian and a terrible example of one, which I think is something we can all agree on.
I'm gonna break your heart there and say I think it's very difficult indeed to decide what a 'real' Christian is. From an atheist perspective, every faith-based worldview makes an equal amount of nonsense and there's nothing to indicate that believing in a forgiving, liberal God makes any more sense than believing in a vengeful God who, well, hates fags. And what of Muslims and Jews and Buddhists and pagan witches? Who's right? Who's to say?Segaholic2 wrote:The thing is, I don't think you can even define Fred Phelps and his like as "Christians" as they blatantly disregard the most important teaching of the New Testament: Love your neighbor as you love yourself. At the very <i>most</i> he's a really shitty Christian and a terrible example of one, which I think is something we can all agree on.
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EDIT BY POPCORN: I am a goddamn idiot and cannot stop pressing the 'edit' button instead of 'quote', thus erasing other peoples' hard work! Woo, look at me go! I'm the worst moderator ever! Forgive me, Del! I sure hope you can remember everything.
FURTHER EDIT BY POPCORN: In an attempt to fix the damage I will recite Del's original message from memory. It runs as follows:
Despite my original anti-religious sentiments, I'm actually a big fan of Jesus. It was he who taught me that my sexuality was leading me down the path of sin; now all my homosexual friends and lovers lie dead, so that they may be torturted for all eternity in the fiery infernoes of heck. PS: I am sooooo fat.
FURTHER EDIT BY POPCORN: In an attempt to fix the damage I will recite Del's original message from memory. It runs as follows:
Despite my original anti-religious sentiments, I'm actually a big fan of Jesus. It was he who taught me that my sexuality was leading me down the path of sin; now all my homosexual friends and lovers lie dead, so that they may be torturted for all eternity in the fiery infernoes of heck. PS: I am sooooo fat.
Holic, can we install a big 'YOU ARE EDITING THIS MESSAGE' banner on the 'edit message' page? It'd help me stop making that fucking mistake... that's like the third goddamn time I've edited someone's message accidentally. I did hit back a few times to see if Del's original post was in my cache, but it was too late.
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