Gibbs, we've gone through this

[Pepperidge]

While I hate to resurrect pointless continuity debates, this one teeny little detail just irks me to no end as Gibbon still hasn't acknowledged it despite the fact that it's so fucking obvious: when playing as Knuckles, the events of Sonic 3 & Knuckles take place after Sonic's game, not concurrently. The evidence is there:

- When you get the good ending of Sonic & Knuckles as Sonic, you're treated with a foreboding image of an Eggrobo unit rising from a scrap pile.

- When you play through Angel Island Zone as Knuckles, the background is a skyscape rather than ocean, implying that the island is back up in the sky which didn't happen until after Sonic's game was finished.

- No sign of the Death Egg whatsoever in Launch Base Zone or Hidden Palace Zone when playing as Knuckles.

- Never at any point of Knuckles' game (until the end) do you encounter Sonic. If the stories were concurrent, wouldn't they be intertwined? Plus the ending doesn't make sense in the context of Sonic's story.

Anything else I missed?

I demand that this change be made immediately to the Sonic & Knuckles page. Because, ya know, I have the authority to do that. Or should.

[Crazy Penguin]

Also, when Sonic defeats Mecha Sonic he merely collapses and starts sparking. When Knuckles defeats Mecha Sonic he explodes into tiny pieces. And the ghosts have already been released from the capsule in Knuckles' version of Sandolopis Zone Act 2.

[Green Gibbon!]

I agree with that. Did... did I insinuate anywhere on the page that they happen concurrently?

[Pepperidge]

From the story section:

Knuckles, meanwhile, is being harassed by a mysterious mechanical stranger. This Eggrobo, a robot designed by Eggman in his own image, is of course an agent for its creator, attempting to blot Knuckles out of the picture without letting on the fact that Eggman is the real bad guy. (Knuckles is still under the impression that Sonic, as per Eggman's lie, is the villain.)

From the Sandopolis bit:

(Note that Knuckles seems to be trailing a bit behind Sonic at this point, so when you start the Act as the red ronin, the pyramid is already fully stocked with freed ghosts.)

I think it might be a good idea to change the story section back to the full game overview that it used to be and then flow into Knuckles' story from there. I mean, I know the GHZ doesn't usually go that far into depth with that stuff these days, but it's still a source of confusion for a lot of people and it might be helpful if the page clarified the context of everything.

Oh yeah, the new title image is probably the best you've ever done.

[FlashTHD]

While we're in the spirit of nitpicking:

-- It might be worth mentioning that activating Debug mode in S3&K turns off the checks in the level select menu's programming that prevent you from getting characters into stages that they're not meant to play. (Try beating Doomsday Zone as Knuckles for an ending that's all kinds of fucked up.)
-- As Hyper Sonic, hold up or down when doing the midair dash attack to dash in those directions.
-- In Carnival Night, Knuckles doesn't fight the Graviton Mobile unless you break off of the beaten path.
-- Just curious: why isn't there a detailed list of the objects in the two bonus stages?

Oh, and for what it's worth, Shun Nakamura also directed Billy Hatcher.

[Frieza2000]

I've got a small gripe too. You say the lightning attack of the final boss in Sonic + Tails 2 is impossible to dodge. It's easy to dodge, just jump into the alcove on the left side of the screen.

[Esrever]

When you play through Angel Island Zone as Knuckles, the background is a skyscape rather than ocean, implying that the island is back up in the sky which didn't happen until after Sonic's game was finished.

Holy shit! I never noticed that before.

[Brazillian Cara]

None of us had.

[G.Silver]

I never noticed it but Pep has pointed it out to me SEVERAL times.

It would have been so much cooler if the stories intertwined. This really only explains why they intertwine so poorly.

[Pepperidge]

That was, like, the FIRST thing I noticed.

I think at one point S3&K was supposed to be released as one game and Knuckles' game would be unlockable after you completed it as Sonic, which is why it takes place after. But I do agree that it would've been cooler if they did mix together.

[Green Gibbon!]

Whups, me bad. I'll fix it after the weekend or whenever my next day off is.

[James McGeachie]

Oh, and for what it's worth, Shun Nakamura also directed Billy Hatcher.

This is pretty unrelated but I'll need to comment on this, if you're absolutely positive that's true. I'm pretty confident that's the director of the next gen Sonic, which'd mean that it's being directed as the same guy that made Billy Hatcher, which seems like a pretty fucking bad thing.

Oh and to be quite honest I don't think they really put a lot of thought into where Knuckles' game went and I doubt they really tried to fit it in anywhere.

[Green Gibbon!]

I'm pretty confident that's the director of the next gen Sonic, which'd mean that it's being directed as the same guy that made Billy Hatcher, which seems like a pretty fucking bad thing.

Sensationally awful, even. Superbly disconcerting. Outstandingly alarming. Y'know, why not get Dimps involved and make the circle complete?

By the way, would anyone else care to take a crack at those Sonic & Tails 2 boss names? I know that worm's name is not "Buttarandorf".

[The Doc]

Oh yeah, the new title image is probably the best you've ever done.

It got a chuckle out of me, and I'm a regular there. Of course, where I come from, we don't like it much either.

By the way, would anyone else care to take a crack at those Sonic & Tails 2 boss names? I know that worm's name is not "Buttarandorf".

Why not?

[Tsuyoshi-kun]

About Knuckles in Death Egg Zone using level select to get him there:

You can complete act 2 with him, but act 1 is impossible, since the layout for the mid-boss is made so that only Sonic and Tails can reach him.

Also, in Sonic 3, Sonic could turn into Super Sonic doing the Gumball Bonus Stage. This was fixed up later when you attach it to Sonic & Knuckles, when the ability to do so was taken out.

[FlashTHD]

Another thing about Nakamura; when I went through the credits last night to confirm it, I also found that he was listed under "Lead Game Designer"...I assume that means he had a foothold in the level design. The potential big trouble that could come from this: if he claims that role for Sonic Next, and unless he's learned his lesson, we'll be seeing bottomless pits en masse again, for certain.

On the other hand, he can't possibly do any worse than Iizuka did with the Shadow game's worst levels. Furthermore, if he was one of the level designers for SA1, then he should probably know what he's doing.

[FlashTHD]

Sorry for the double post, but I just remembered something that wasn't mentioned on the Spinball page:

During the Roboboiler fight, be very careful not to fall into the drain. You'll go careening down to the bottom of the stage, where Sonic will dangle on a chain precariously over a tub of lava. To get to safety, you must alternate left and right to swing back and forth and build up momentum (think the Carnival Night drums, only sideways). The only time it's safe to jump off is when you've swung clear of the tub. If you jump too soon, or wait too long (you only have 5 seconds), you're roasted. This is only good twice. If you swing to safety a second time, the chain snaps, which means your third trip down the drain will be your last.

[Tsuyoshi-kun]

On the other hand, he can't possibly do any worse than Iizuka did with the Shadow game's worst levels. Furthermore, if he was one of the level designers for SA1, then he should probably know what he's doing.

I dunno. Iizuka was one of the head game designers of NiGHTS, and look what he did to the Sonic franchise. Getting a guy who worked on mediocrity like Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg doesn't make me feel more confident in the future of Sonic than Iizuka did.

[FlashTHD]

The difference is that we've seen the end result of passing the series over to Iizuka. Nakamura is a relatively new face, and despite that one previous blemish he was responsible for, I have no reason to be paranoid yet.

That, and all we've seen about the game thus far is pretty screenshots, descriptions of some inconsequential features (day/night cycle) and heaps of worthless hype, so I don't have anything good or bad to say about it until they start talking about what counts.

[big_smile]

Here’s something that might be relevant for the timeline. I found this oddly-named logo while searching the Japanese patents office. It was registered in 2003.


It seems that the logo belongs to a Sonic-themed crepe shop that is located in the Kurachi Mago Cinema Theater in Gifu-ken, Japan.

It is part of the Crazy Crepe franchise which runs several other Sega-themed outlets.

---
GG!, Sonic Gems Collection contains in-game shots of the original Sonic arcade games (such as Waku Waku). Would you like me to capture them for the museum pages?

---

The potential big trouble that could come from this: if he claims that role for Sonic Next, and unless he's learned his lesson, we'll be seeing bottomless pits en masse again, for certain.

The level design doesn’t look too promising from the screenshots shown so far, especially as many of the level routes still seem to be suspended over bottomless pits. The only improvement over recent efforts is that the pathways are slightly wider.

^_^

[Green Gibbon!]

Does anyone happen to remember the opening and closing dates of that Sonic clothing store?

GG!, Sonic Gems Collection contains in-game shots of the original Sonic arcade games (such as Waku Waku). Would you like me to capture them for the museum pages?

That would be cool, as much for my own interest as the museum pages.

The old Sonic arcade games all run on System C-2, which is basically Genesis hardware and is easily emulated. You'd think somebody would've dumped that shit by now.

[Plorpus III]

Am I the only one who actually liked Billy Hatcher? Granted, it wasn't the best platformer, but it wasn't by any means bad, in my opinion. It also had some insanely fun multiplayer.

[Baba O'Reily]

Wait, people actually like crepes enough to start a franchise based off of them?

[big_smile]

That would be cool, as much for my own interest as the museum pages.

I’ve uploaded them here. I’ve also included captures of the Sonic concept art and the illustrations for Sonic CD, Sonic the Fighters and Chaotix, as they might be of some use for the encyclopedia.

^_^

[Wooduck51]

I dunno. Iizuka was one of the head game designers of NiGHTS, and look what he did to the Sonic franchise. Getting a guy who worked on mediocrity like Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg doesn't make me feel more confident in the future of Sonic than Iizuka did.

Iizuka's problem is that whatever his original ideas were they seemed to be good in theory, but then when the game is finished they are terribly mangled. Sonic heroes could have been a much better game if more time had been spent on it. Shadow would have been better if they had fixed the hostile allies and screwed up homing attack. It may not be Iizuka per say, but a coordinated screw up amongst the whole Sonic team (not sure though as Sonic riders was half decent.)