Can classic be classier?

[Dash]

The exclusive paths were half the fun (if not the entire point)of playing as Knuckles. That'd be quite sucky.


I share the sentiments on Super Bosses; it is a gimmick used far too much(though I did like SA2's and SAdv3's final boss battles). Doesn't mean Super can't be used in different ways though. I've always thought it'd be cool to have one where Super Sonic is used to break through the hull of a giant robot or something and then plain ol' Sonic is used to attack the heart of the machine( There wouldn't be enough rings inside to turn into Super Sonic). Super is still used, but regular Sonic saves the day. Woo^^

And oh yeah, I guess a change of music for Super Sonic in S3&K couldn't hurt. And while we're on the subject, get rid of the doom n' gloom music for the latter half of the Perfect Chaos battle. Truly killed the mood.

No suggestions otherwise....

[Light Speed]

And while we're on the subject, get rid of the doom n' gloom music for the latter half of the Perfect Chaos battle. Truly killed the mood.

Yeah, what the crap was that about?

[CE]

The exclusive paths were half the fun (if not the entire point)of playing as Knuckles. That'd be quite sucky.

Well I found getting on Knuckles' route as Super Sonic in Marble Garden Zone to be lots of fun.

[jenkins]

Somehow, whenever I do that, I always end up falling at that part where you need to hit those swing-things. Killer annoying. My complaint was that Super Sonic annihilates the ability to make careful jumps or movements. Also, he should be able to fly in the next collection. He does it in Doomsday Zone, so...

Damn, this whole topic is making me nostalgic. Time to dig up S3+K.

I don't think he is so much flying as he is in space with no gravity and just kind of moving forward.

The the reason I took it to be flying was that whenever he ran out of rings and turned back, he fell. But Crazy Penguin covered that pretty well already.

[Crazy Penguin]

And while we're on the subject, get rid of the doom n' gloom music for the latter half of the Perfect Chaos battle. Truly killed the mood.

Yeah, that was completely unmerited.

[Zeta]

While we're at it, I wonder what the heck the Advance 3 characters and movesets would look/play like if you stuck them in Sonic3K.

Some sadistic part of me wants to see Amy beat the shit out of Knuckles in Hidden Palace.

[Light Speed]

Sounds like a fetish to me.

[Omni Hunter]

Definitely a case of Hammer Space fetish.


I did have an idea sparked from the Shadoow game for Supersonic though, like Shadow uses Chaos Blast powers and Chaos Contol powers by building up an energy bar, Sonic can do the same.

Going through checkpoints in a fast enough time and other speed related bonuses build up a bar for Chaos Control (which Sonic uses in Adventure 2) and taking out enemies allows you to use Supersonic for a short period.

That way you have a Supersonic that doesn't milk the levels when you feel destructive and unleash a fairly large barrel of whoopass on badniks and concentrating on the speed aspects of the level allow you to go a bit faster for a while.

If it works in Shadow, it could work in a Sonic game.

[Baba O'Reily]

I share the sentiments on Super Bosses; it is a gimmick used far too much(though I did like SA2's and SAdv3's final boss battles). Doesn't mean Super can't be used in different ways though. I've always thought it'd be cool to have one where Super Sonic is used to break through the hull of a giant robot or something and then plain ol' Sonic is used to attack the heart of the machine( There wouldn't be enough rings inside to turn into Super Sonic). Super is still used, but regular Sonic saves the day. Woo^^

I actually like this idea. The whole, 'multi-phase final boss' thing has always appealed to me, and this seems like a logical progression.

[DackAttac]

Oh hell yes. All my favorite bosses are multiple phase. S3&K, even Triple Trouble. You take on Metal Sonic, always good... Then four different Eggman contraptions... None particularly hard, but the finished product was greater than the sum of its parts.

The best part of S3&K is the build-up to the climax. You get to Launch Base, splitting the plot in half... Then Lava Reef's boss has the terror of the Death Egg coming back (and being quite a bitch), then the whole Hidden Palace confrontation, where it breaks from the format... Sky Sanctuary, riddled with boss nostalgia... Then the Death Egg, where the format momentarily returns before one of the best boss sequences ever confronts your sorry ass. Because big doesn't mean shit unless you have to take the bastard down in layers. Know what I'm saying? Despite the latter giving me more trouble at the moment, Sonic & Knuckles' final boss is much scarier than Sonic Rush's.

[One Classy Bloke]

I had an idea that when the player turns into Super Sonic, one attack on enemies would be similar to the jump pads in SA1, only between each robot, destroying them and allowing the player to move to the next.

[Omni Hunter]

True there Dack/ Baba, it was touched a bit in Sonic 2 with the Sonic Mech and the Eggman Mech. But the sequence in Launch Base is still my personal favourite because it doesn't rely on huge-ass machines, just the Eggmobile with a few extras.
Another thing that I liked was the need for patience and adapting the strategy, not going all out but biding your time until a weakness is revealed so you can steal a hit or two. Since then it's just been a matter of getting speed up and ramming into the enemy or something similar.

That's why I much prefer taking on the Egg Viper than Perfect chaos.

[Senbei]

That moment in Death Egg after the boss's menacing footsteps can be heard offscreen, when the giant robot suddenly rushes onscreen ready to crush you under its fingers is a great moment. S3&K definately had some great bosses that really explored all of Sonic's abilities -- the boss in Mushroom Hill challenged his speed, Marble Garden made use of Sonic and Tails' teamwork ... and of course, you could change your strategy with each boss depending on who you play as.
The Advances often employ the same strategies, so I wonder why I didn't enjoy their bosses as much. Perhaps I simply missed the mini-bosses.

[tornadot]

Sonic 2 where it shows how the next stage is transitioned into, you know like in Sonic 3/Sonic and Knuckles. Like in Mushroom Hill where you jump onto Flying Battery...etc...I don't like it when you end a stage and just randomly appear in this next one. How does one go from a tropical hill to a huge metropolis, just like that?

[jenkins]

I like Dash's Super Sonic/Sonic idea, and so far I've agreed with pretty much everything said about multiple-phase final bosses. Regarding the "boss progression" technique used in S3+K, I'v noticed a similar thing in Sonic 2, just not quite as extensive: it starts when you reach Metropolis, which could easily be a final zone itself, and you beat the boss there. Instead of the game ending, though, you hop on the Tornado and chase Robotnik through the sky in a single-act diversion from the norm. Then another single act zone which make Metropolis look easy, a non-Robotnik battle, and a free ride to the final showdown in space. Just awesome. Still not as cool as the Lava Reef-Deathegg buildup in S3+K, but awesome nonetheless.

One question, though. How many phases should a boss have? I mean, they've never really pushed a boss past three phases in one sitting, unless you count the two extra parts of the S3+K robot, fought in Doomsday. This formula (three phases) works pretty well, but would it be even more exhilerating to have more phases? Or would it just start getting annoying? It could be that there's a happy medium--five phases, or something like that. Maybe eight, and you would get a Chaos Emerald in each phase so you could go Super for the last one. You'd have to have Robotnik take all your Emeralds before the fight, though, and that way you'd still have Special Stages and have to earn the privelege of an eighth round. Similarly, is there a limit to the number of hits you should have to make? Think about the "core" of the Deathegg: 16 hits. That's one hell of a lot of hits for a mini boss, but that's part of what made it so cool. If you add up all the necessary hits for the final robot, that's 24 to beat it. 40 if you add the Doomsday hits. Is this too many, or can it be expanded?

A little while ago, I came up with an awesome final boss idea which I'll put up when I dig it up again.

[DackAttac]

Sonic 2 where it shows how the next stage is transitioned into, you know like in Sonic 3/Sonic and Knuckles. Like in Mushroom Hill where you jump onto Flying Battery...etc...I don't like it when you end a stage and just randomly appear in this next one. How does one go from a tropical hill to a huge metropolis, just like that?

I'll agree with that. Probably why the scene where Eggman swiped the emerald after the Hidden Palace battle gave me such a rush. The reason it was probably one of the best story developments in the saga's history is the fact that it made the most out of its storytelling means... 16-bit music and sprites. Now that the palette is unlimited and you can do damn near anything you want, lame dialogue and hack VA's just don't do them justice. (And is it just me, or does anyone else hate it when they say 'Chaos Emerald' every third line?) But then again, keeping up with the times is kind of all part of surviving in the videogame industry; which really just goes around to Gibbon's post on the home page, which I personally think nit the nail right on the fucking head.

[Frieza2000]

Omni gave me an idea for Super Sonic a while back. If they can't go back to the old special stage and transformation formula (maybe for the reasons CP stated), why not make an entire zone specifically for him? Not the cliche boss fight where you start transformed, but a 2 or 3 act zone where the storyline has finally brought you all 7 emeralds and you can go super. If they designed the levels specifically for Super Sonic but left them possible to do without transforming and put a lot of thought into ring, enemy, and obstical location...well, I guess I can stop right there because if Sonic Team put a lot of thought into any aspect of their design then this topic wouldn't exist.

[Crazy Penguin]

I think it would be a cool idea to have a few Super Sonic only levels. Something that Sonic wouldn't be able to handle in normal situations, like a radioactive wasteland, so you'd lose a life if you run out of rings and turn back into regular Sonic.

[Kishi]

Super Sonic's capabilities have been left tragically unexplored. They've only really been taken advantage of in flying-over-water scenes (Sonic 3 and Adventure) and flying-through-space scenes (too many to name). That's why the consistent reuse of the space scenes is as annoying as it is: it wouldn't take a whole lot of thought to come up with a different scenario for Super Sonic to show off in.

[Plorpus III]

Like... What?
I mean, I agree with you, but I can't think of anything myself. They would all pretty much involve him flying or gliding on something.
Underwater?
No, no one wants to gather air bubbles during a final battle.

...That's all I could come up with.

[Light Speed]

Would Super Sonic have to breathe underwater? I don't think he has to worry about that. However it'd be lame as hell. They should give Super Sonic a few more moves other than dash forward really fast, then maybe he could have a few more cooler fights.

If all else fails you could always Team Blast the fucker to death!

[jenkins]

A Super only zone? This must be a record! I've never agreed with everyone this frequently in a single thread!

The question remains, what would make a Super zone super? It wouldn't really be enough just to have myriad dangers which prevent Sonic from surviving. What would be cool would be if Super got new attacks which he needed (as well as his speed and invincibility) to get through such a level. I'm thinking of how in Super Metroid you need High-Jump Boots and the Speed Booster to get to certain areas-where the floor would normally collapse too fast to dash over, and where the ledge is normally a little too high.

Has anyone heard of a Japanese company called "PSG?" There might be more than one, but the one I'm thinking of makes documentaries. I have one at home with an awesome soundtrack which perfectly fits the format of a Sonic game. It has ten themes, the last of which actually sounds like a remix of the mini-boss theme from Sonic and Knuckles, and then an extra one which is faster and more intense than the others. I actually assigned them names for a Sonic game-

Emerald Isle
Silver Sky
(can't remember, but it had to do with water)
(casino stage)
Hot City
Giga Base
(ice stage)
Radical Factory
Sunset Speedway
Egg Fortress (has that been used before?)
Electric Emerald (extra, Super only)

[Egore]

I can only think of little things. I remember in Knuckles in Sonic 2, Knuckles didn't have all the sound effects he should have. For example, when you glide and then latch onto a wall in S3&K, it made this awesome noise, which was noteably absent from KS2.

I wouldn't have Super Sonic music because, as previously mentioned, it got way too repetative.

In Sonic 2, if you got invincibility and then turned into Super Sonic, you'd be Super Sonic with stars around him. I remember it was really easy to do in Chemical Plant Zone (Act 2 I think). I always liked that, and I kind of wish that glitch was in S3&K.

I would give Tails flight in Sonic 2. I never understood how when Tails died (while being controlled by the computer), he would fly back to Sonic, but when you were actually Tails, you couldn't fly.

I would give Tails a Super form in Sonic 2 and give him a correct Super/Hyper form in S3&K. That never made sense to me how the Chaos Emeralds had no effect on him, and the Super Emeralds only had minimal effect.

Has anyone noticed the music for Flying Battery Zone being different in Sonic Mega Collection? This may just be me, but when I played S3&K on my Genesis, some of the instruments were more in the background whereas they're a lot more noticeable in SMC. I'd change that, I like the original better.

[Frieza2000]

I would give Tails a Super form in Sonic 2 and give him a correct Super/Hyper form in S3&K. That never made sense to me how the Chaos Emeralds had no effect on him, and the Super Emeralds only had minimal effect.

I took it to mean that he's too weak to utilize them.

A super-only zone could be fun, but I think there's more potential if you're forced to collect 50 rings first, with the levels designed with this in mind so that Super isn't so much a cheat as it is the way you're meant to play the level. Maybe just the last act would be super-only, and of course the requisite boss battle.

What if you were forced to collect the 50 rings during the boss battle? A scrolling battle like mushroom hill or doomsday. And then once you transform and do a bit of damage, the battle can progress into its next stage.

[Double-S-]

I don't really like bosses where the process is simply avoiding attacks and then having a glaring, usually glowing, weak point open up to you while the boss just sits there. Bosses should have other better and more dynamic ways of keeping you from hitting them.