Shadow and Rush, Opinions and General Bitching

Speak your mind, or lack thereof. There may occasionally be on-topic discussions.

Postby Light Speed » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:27 pm

Misusing the spoiler tag?! BAN HIM!
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Postby Omni Hunter » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:52 pm

[spoiler] WTF is a spoiler tag!? [/spoiler]
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Postby Segaholic2 » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:23 am

Professor Machenstein wrote:Explain. I mean, so what if it doesn't have Ohshima's character designs, Nakamura's 16-BIT composition, or the surrealism of a Miyazaki film. It may not have the Ristar/Chaotix template we've been starving for since '95, but it doesn't feel like Sonic Advance either. It's Sonic Rush, and it has a charm I look forward to seeing more of. Just give it some time for the nostalgia to sink in. Soon, maybe around year's end, message boards around the 'Net will start raving, "WHY WONT SEGA MAKE A SONIC RUSH 2????"

Yes, because a game requires all these things to be a good game in the first place. Hell, even if the game DID have all those things it wouldn't change the fact that it's a mediocre game with awful level design.

And of course, nostalgia is the number one reason why everyone considers the original Sonic games better than these new ones. :roll:

No matter how you look at it, there is absolutely no way that Rush is anywhere close to being on par with Sonic the Hedgehog 2 in any respect. Unless you're retarded.

Rush is a decent game, but it's not great and I'm not sure I'd even call it good.
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Postby Light Speed » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:29 am

I don't think you'll have to worry about Sega making Sonic Rush 2. That shit is probably already almost done.
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Postby James McGeachie » Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:31 am

Segaholic2 wrote:No matter how you look at it, there is absolutely no way that Rush is anywhere close to being on par with Sonic the Hedgehog 2 in any respect. Unless you're retarded.


I'm gonna have to say I feel this statement is wrong. The thing with Rush is that it's (or at least, should be viewed as) a different kind of experience. If you play Rush taking full advantage of the trick system, you'll rarely ever find yourself falling into any pits, ever. That being said though, Sonic 2 doesn't have a trick system, or a boost system, things that are integral to the Rush experience to me, to a point where comparing the gameplay experience with Rush to the old Sonics is almost like comparing Sonic to Mario. There's a big difference in the overall feel.

The Advance games attempted to be fun by providing a large quantity of high speed sections with little focus on decent pure platforming and exploration, pretty much the opposite of the originals where your focus was platforming with the speedy parts more as your reward for beating the other areas. The big problem with the advance games is that they failed horribly in making the speed exciting, which defeated the entire purpose of what they set out to do. Rush, however, finally accomplished that goal, by making running really fast all of the time actually enjoyable, to a point where the actual platforming sections in the gameplay come off as troublesome. That's what I mean by Rush being a different experience.

With that, I feel Rush is somewhat (though not hugely so) close to Sonic 2 in overall quality level, but they're definitely both at their heights for different reasons. How you feel about the titles all comes down to your personal preference in gameplay experience, a lot of people have taken to the idea of pure speed gameplay over platforming now with Rush and therefore believe it to surpass the originals. This has nothing to do with them being retarded though, it's just that what they're looking for from the games is different and they're getting what they want with Rush.

Words.
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Postby Professor Machenstein » Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:01 pm

Segaholic2 wrote:Yes, because a game requires all these things to be a good game in the first place. Hell, even if the game DID have all those things it wouldn't change the fact that it's a mediocre game with awful level design.

I see you failed to read the rest of my post. I said if level design is the problem, I can partially agree with that. I will not rant any longer about bottomless pits since I have already beaten that subject beyond death. You think it's a mediocre game... Very well. It would be pretty boring if we all agreed on the same thing.

Segaholic2 wrote:And of course, nostalgia is the number one reason why everyone considers the original Sonic games better than these new ones. :roll:

I did not say nostalgia was the number one reason, but it is a reason nonetheless. The Genesis games may have been well polished titles, but they have years and years of memories backing them up too, all the way from the "Seeeh---gaaa" boot-up screen to the credits BGM.
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Postby jenkins » Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:42 pm

James McGeachie wrote:I'm gonna have to say I feel this statement is wrong. The thing with Rush is that it's (or at least, should be viewed as) a different kind of experience. If you play Rush taking full advantage of the trick system, you'll rarely ever find yourself falling into any pits, ever. That being said though, Sonic 2 doesn't have a trick system, or a boost system, things that are integral to the Rush experience to me, to a point where comparing the gameplay experience with Rush to the old Sonics is almost like comparing Sonic to Mario. There's a big difference in the overall feel.


This is entirely true. It's also true of Sonic Advance 2 and even 3 (although I still just don't like it).

The Advance games attempted to be fun by providing a large quantity of high speed sections with little focus on decent pure platforming and exploration, pretty much the opposite of the originals where your focus was platforming with the speedy parts more as your reward for beating the other areas.


I think everyone must be thinking of Advance 2 and 3 more than 1. In 3, I'll give you your point, but in much of 2, the running sections, while not always exciting, were at least cool to watch and often fun to go through because of the (visually) entertaining trick system. As for Advance 1, I think that "platforming with the speedy parts more as your reward" is actually a fitting description of the gameplay. They use that system in pretty much every act of every zone. In my favorite (Egg Rocket), it is not only a reward, but gorgeous to watch (I'm thinking of that part at the beginning of the third stage of the rocket, where there's that huge "ring gallery").

The big problem with the advance games is that they failed horribly in making the speed exciting, which defeated the entire purpose of what they set out to do.


So basically, I just disagree with the fact that you're generalizing.
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Postby Light Speed » Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:47 pm

I wouldn't agree with you about Advance 1. I remember back in highschool when I first got my GBA and Advance 1 I brought it to school and let a non gamer friend of mine play. He did the time attacks a bunch and after a few rounds said this game sucks, all I do is hold the right button down. That's all that game was, at least for the earlier levels.
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Postby jenkins » Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:51 pm

Yeah...the early levels were pretty easy. But I still stand by what I said, especially for the later levels. Plus, your friend was exaggerating.
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Postby Zeta » Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:19 pm

I don't think you'll have to worry about Sega making Sonic Rush 2. That shit is probably already almost done.


If they do make Rush 2 and bring back the Sonic/Blaze pair - they really need to differentiate their movesets more. Playing through all of the acts several times, I can only remember two seperate instances where playing as either character really changed your gameplay - one place in Altitude Limit where only Blaze could trick boost up to the latter half of the Act and another in the Water Palace where only Blaze could glide across a gap. It'd also be nice if they didn't have Blaze spin around sideways while going through pipes - even better if they didn't let Blaze enter pipes at all.

Also, I'm pretty scared that if they add in any characters to the sequel it'll be Tails and Cream. Tails is fine, but I don't want to have to play though as Cream or be stuck with Cream following be and acting useless. Jesus. I'd prefer another original character over her.
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Postby Segaholic2 » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:41 pm

The boost system is cheap and takes away from the feel of the Sonic gameplay experience, in my opinion. It makes all obstacles nearly worthless as it can be performed almost limitlessly and without any acceleration or charge time whatsoever. It renders the spin dash completely obsolete; in fact, I'm not sure if the spin dash is even IN the game because I never had any need for it.

Also, the trick system was dumb when they implemented it in Sonic Advance 2 or whatever it was, and it's still dumb now. Of course I used it and I beat the game completely with all Emeralds, but the trick system is still retarded and a completely unnecessary addition. Again, I feel that it overcomplicates things and detracts from the overall Sonic experience. The same kind of experience that you can garner from the original Genesis games, and the one that I strongly prefer over Advance/Rush.

EDIT: And by overcomplicate I mean not that it's difficult to perform, but just that it's completely useless aside from "looking cool" or what have you. Honestly, what's the point? Ooh, Sonic twirls in the air and I get points for doing it and it fills my boost meter. That doesn't change the fact that very often I would end up wasting time bouncing repeatedly on one spring and mashing R and A to fill up my boost meter so I could hold the Y button down for the rest of the level. :roll:
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Postby Locit » Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:20 pm

I did the tricks 'cause I liked the aminals...
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Postby Crazy Penguin » Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:26 pm

Which animals appear in the game?
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Postby Locit » Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:29 pm

I don't remember specifically, but every time you did a big enough combination of tricks they popped up on whatever screen you were on and cheered for you.
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Postby Professor Machenstein » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:31 pm

About the trick and boost system... Well, is there any other way to improve the 2D formula? We could throw in some new sheilds, S3&K style. We could make it so the Tension Meter fills up a bit less, evening out the use of Spindash and Rushing. Since Sonic Advance 3, I have been a bit fustrated about the lack of W Kaiten. You tell me, what should be done?
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Postby Ritz » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:57 pm

X-Treme's rotation engine. Yes, I'm well aware that the general consensus is that X-Treme was going to suck, but I think that rotation gimmick had some real potential.
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Postby Professor Machenstein » Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:10 pm

Rotation gimmick? Where can I see it? Give me an example of this rotation thingy you speak of.
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Postby Dark Crow » Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:14 am

You can see it in the Sonic X-Treme trailers found here, Machenstein.
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Postby Esrever » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:58 am

I thought the trick/boost system was great. It's not something I'd want to see in every 2D Sonic title, and it definitely changed the feel of the entire game. The boost is no minor Sonic Advance-style addition... it becomes your primary attack and main method of acceleration. In that sense, it does "ruin" many aspects of the classic games, as Segaholic says.

But that's kind of why I like it. It makes Sonic Rush distinct... something different. Within the context of Sonic Rush, I think this new style of gameplay works. It has a reasonable amount of depth, and the levels were designed almost entirely with it in mind. It doesn't so much "break" the elements of the old games as it simply pushes them asside in favour of something less traditional. And in my opinion, it beats getting another unsatisfying retread of the classic titles.
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Postby James McGeachie » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:35 am

The trick system in Rush is completely different than in Advance 2/3 and is what MAKES the game for me, so there's an instant difference in opinion for anyone who doesn't care for it. I'm not one who usually bothers with S ranks or any of that garbage in games but due to the way the tricks and boost are implimented I actually had a great time trying to get all of them.

Oh and Jenkins yeah, I'm aware Advance 1 was a bit slower, it was therefore the best of the 3 since it didn't attempt to do something it failed at, but it still had weak (though visually fairly solid) level design, rubbish music and other problems I wont get in to. I didn't mention it in the other post because it was getting big enough as it was.
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Postby big_smile » Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:34 am

In the old games, Sonic took time to accelerate to his top speed, and this produced a ‘thrill’ for the player when the speed was achieved. In the newer games, Sonic virtually starts running at his top speed from the moment the player moves him. I think the reason the boost mode/Rush meter works so well is because it restores the opportunity to feel the ‘thrill’ of achieving a faster speed.

Which animals appear in the game?


The animals that appear in Eggman’s robots are the ones from the Advance games. A few new animals have been added, but they still have the same Advance style.

When performing a complex trick, a humanoid-looking rabbit, blue bird and squirrel appear. They look very different from the other animals, so I’m guessing that they must be Pocky, Ricky and Flicky, although they don’t look identical to the original animal friends. The ‘humanoid’ Flicky sprite is interesting, as it looks completely different from the one that appears in the robots.

I can try and take some pictures if you want, but they might not come out very clear.

^_^
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Postby SegaSonic » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:31 pm

The flickies in Leaf Storm that are around the level flying and stuff are the originals Flickies or atleast polished versions of them.The Flickies that appear when you do Trick are the ones the appear in Sonic Advance 3 and the ending where Gmerl has one on his arm, I like to call em Neo Flickies.

http://sprites.fireball20xl.com/SSA/Sheets/specialend.png

Also Note worthy, theres a new Animal Friend that appears along side Flickies and Pockie..its a a Raccoon!...so I wonder what his name is!...hmm, Raccky? :razz:
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Postby Professor Machenstein » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:00 pm

The rotation engine seems more of a visual gag than an actual improvement on the formula, but I suppose it can be put to use in future level designs.

I really would not mind seeing the Tension Gauge and trick system being put to use in future Sonic games. Sonic Rush gives you a cool sensation of flight, as if you were a kangaroo wearing rocket shoes. You're leaping over huge portions of the entire landscape, but where does the trick system come to use? While you are in midair, instead of asking yourself "When am I going to hit the ground?" You go “Who cares? Let’s do some tricks!â€￾ You mash some buttons and fill up the Tension Gauge so you can plow through enemies at ease until you reach another flying section.

But as Segaholic said, there is a setback to this system; the Tension Gauge makes it so Sonic's other moves are rendered obsolete, and 3/4 of the level design emphasizes only on boosting and not on Kaiten or Spindashing. So, let's imagine for a second that the classic games have a Tension Gauge and a trick system. Keep in mind, the level design is still the same. Tell us what you just envisioned.
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Postby Frieza2000 » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:23 pm

Not only does it render the other moves useless, it encourages you to hold down right and plow mindlessly through every obstical. I enjoy the sensation of speed and flying, but it can't take up the whole game. That's monotonous.

Rush mode would've worked better if it had been powered by rings instead of trick points. Not only would that force players to be more conservative with it, it would give them a reason to collect more than 1 ring, which there hasn't been since 1999.
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Postby tornadot » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:17 pm

I've never played a Sonic game before where I never used the spin dash, that is until I played Rush. I do agree about that boost system being cheap, there were times where the gauge never ran out and I boosted through most of the stage without incident...
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