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Why would they replace Metal Sonic with Shadow as the main bad ass henchmen/rival/jerk character? Metal Sonic has been around for like 10 years while Shadow has only been around for 4 years but Shadow gets his own game before Metal Sonic.

Not only that Shadow's a pussy villian.

After what they did to him in Heroes, I don't want to see Sonic Team mess with Metal Sonic again.

Not only that Shadow's a pussy villian.

He's every character that was cheap in comics from the '90s rolled into one. You know, the "edgy" dark characters who were only interesting because they acted like crying jackasses and people were used to heroes being sunny niceguys?

Yes, Shadow is the worst aspects of the Punisher, Spawn, and Wolverine combined.

And Venom.

ESPECIALLY Venom.

I never considered Metal Sonic to be a main anything. He appears in 1 major game that few people played and several racing games. If anyone was Sonic's badass rival, it was Knuckles.

I wouldn't consider Metal Sonic as an anti-hero like Shadow. Metal Sonic fits more into of the souless, pure evil, kill-anything-you-see-without-any-consideration rival of the series. Shadow, however, is smack right in the middle of Sonic's good nature and Metal Sonic's demonic... thing. You know, one to balance, then tilt, the whole good-and-evil theme. If Sonic is Spiderman and Metal Sonic is Carnage, then Shadow would be Venom.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot, and don't say, "But Metal Sonic isn't souless. He saved the President and Oji-San in Sonic the Movie." Metal Sonic only saved them because Sonic wanted to, since Metal Sonic's data was linked to Sonic's thoughts.

EDIT 2: Fang will always be cooler. Fang > Shadow. XP

Zeta wrote:Yes, Shadow is the worst aspects of the Punisher, Spawn, and Wolverine combined.

And Venom.

ESPECIALLY Venom.

Now wait just one cotton-pickin' minute. Venom touches levels of badassery that Shadow can only dream of.

Now wait just one cotton-pickin' minute. Venom touches levels of badassery that Shadow can only dream of.

I saw him trying to kill Spiderman while he saved a bus full of children. That's not badassery. That's half-assed pussyness.

Carnage is who you are thinking of, jman!

the thing I hate is posers that like shadow more than sonic because they think he is the evil version of sonic. Metal Sonic suits better as an evil sonic because:
1. He is a robot (which sonic is fighting against).
2.He is souless and has no feelings for anything, totally different from the kind hearted hero, sonic.
3.He gets a cool new evil look every sonic game (with the exception of how he looked in sonic heroes).

Metal Sonic got a cool look in Sonic Heroes. I wish it just appeared for more than 5 seconds.

true. but when he turned big and ugly...

Metal Sonic looked like crap in Heroes. His original design was flawless.

Professor Machenstein wrote:I wouldn't consider Metal Sonic as an anti-hero like Shadow. Metal Sonic fits more into of the souless, pure evil, kill-anything-you-see-without-any-consideration rival of the series. Shadow, however, is smack right in the middle of Sonic's good nature and Metal Sonic's demonic... thing. You know, one to balance, then tilt, the whole good-and-evil theme. If Sonic is Spiderman and Metal Sonic is Carnage, then Shadow would be Venom.

STH#147: The Good, the Bad, and the Unknown
Hey, Archie got something right!

I honestly think that Shadow has the potential to be a good character. I'm not saying he IS a good character, I'm saying he has the potential.
Metal Sonic would be impressive as an ultimate evil, but because he has no personality and has landed only rather minor roles, it's easy to forget that he's a threat. If Heroes had been handled better, he could have been very cool, without turning into a Metal Overlord thingy. I'd like to have seen something more intricate done with the DNA he collected...

And Zeta, since when is Venom a crying jackass? Eddie Brock, maybe, but Venom is always on top of his game, even cracking jokes every once in a while. Plus, he's way more multifaceted than Shadow -- no comparison. If you disagree, go read the Spectacular Spider-Man volume 1 that came out a little while ago. Kicks ass.

I dunno, he had some personality and motives and crap in Sonic Heroes. I think anyway, I can't really remember. He captured Eggman and was the actual bad guy, right? Then again I pretty much disregard all aspects of Sonic Heroes and pretend it didn't exist. In 15 years of gaming it is the only game that has made my throw my controller out of frustration. It was a WaveBird too, so that fucker went across the room and almost hit my mom.

In my defense though I punched the air more than threw the controller, but my hand was sweaty and it slipped.

Senbei wrote:

Professor Machenstein wrote:If Sonic is Spiderman and Metal Sonic is Carnage, then Shadow would be Venom.

And Zeta, since when is Venom a crying jackass?

You really ought to read who you're quoting.

Also, anti-heroes are almost always the suck.

The only anti-heroes that ever appealed to me are Wario, Fang the Sniper, Axle Gear, Gunstar Green, and Trouble Bruin (Maruyama/Kuma Kobe). Shadow may be a bit overly cliched, but besides that, I really have nothing against him. As a Fang fan, I should be envious of Shadow's huge fanbase, but not really. I am rather happy that Fang's fanbase is not as exposed as Shadow's because that way we would not have all those screaming teens like those who are obsessed Shadow because he's OMG BLACK AND RED AND EVIL W/ ANGST AND CHAOS POWERS!!!11 and all that bullshit. Being the not-so-known Austrilian bounty hunter is a part of Fang's charm. Like Quacker said, "He's like Boba Fett, only fuzzy."

But yeah, as Senbei stated, Shadow has the potential to be an overall good character, but not yet. I'll let the Shadow game determine that.

So Shadow is basically Anakin Skywalker then, he has the potential to be the Darth Vader but only if handled correctly.
If Sega gave him a clear motive then it would be ok, it's just that his story fluctuates all the time so an opinion can't be settled.

The thing about Shadow getting a game before Metal is that Shadow has some actual backstory (convulted, but still solid in some aspects). If Metal had a far more deep story, he could have his own game. But, once again, I might be wrong.

Senbei wrote:And Zeta, since when is Venom a crying jackass?

Since his first appearance. The symbiote is Spider-Man's bitter ex-girlfriend and Eddie is just a jerk who blames everyone else for his problems. All consistency in characterisation seemed to go out of the window shortly after the introduction of Carnage though.

Anyone remember the Planet of the Symbiotes story?

Eddie wonders how much of Venom's actions were influenced by the symbiote and if they were really working together as partners, and breaks up with her. This makes the symbiote so sad that she emits a shrieking psychic cry. It just so happens that a space ship full of symbiotes is passing by and hear the cry, so decide to check out Earth and invade it. Eddie reluctantly rebonds with his symbiote and learns that whilst the other symbiotes get off on the adrenaline of their hosts by making them do crazy things his symbiote only wanted to bond with its host, to belong, and was considered crazy and locked up to be studied and then exterminated by the rest of its race, before Spider-Man accidentally discovered it. Then Carnage somehow starts eating the other symbiotes and somehow becomes Godzilla sized. Then Eddie tells his symbiote to let out another psychic shriek to destroy the other symbiotes, but it isn't strong enough, so they join together yet again in some crazy alien sex and attack the other symbiotes with the power of angst, making them so miserable that they all commit suicide. Saving the world was great therapy for Eddie and the symbiote and they decide to become Venom again. The end. <3

It was the epitome of mid 1990s Venom stories.

And Fang and Metal Sonic aren't anti-heroes, they're villains.

I think Metal Sonic's about as anti-hero as you get. I mean, he's Sonic...the hero, except made of metal and evil.

Double-S- wrote:

Senbei wrote:

Professor Machenstein wrote:If Sonic is Spiderman and Metal Sonic is Carnage, then Shadow would be Venom.

And Zeta, since when is Venom a crying jackass?

You really ought to read who you're quoting.

I was referring to Zeta's first post, not Professor Machenstein's. Zeta implied that Venom was a crying jackass, Machenstein never did, as far as I can see, anyway. I figured I didn't need to make another quote and lengthen my post.

Crazy Penguin wrote:...attack the other symbiotes with the power of angst, making them so miserable that they all commit suicide.

Sounds like the ending of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy movie.

Frieza2000 wrote:I think Metal Sonic's about as anti-hero as you get. I mean, he's Sonic...the hero, except made of metal and evil.

I believe the term anti-hero refers to a character who is somewhere between hero and villian, usually meaning that he works for himself, not good or evil. It's confusing because the term could also mean a character's opposite on a certain scale, as Metal Sonic is to Sonic.

Sonic heroes killed all the appeal Metal sonic had. I think the problem with Shadow are Shadow fans, they wanted him back from the dead instead of him staying dead. And Sega did it, Sega brought Shadow back from the dead because Shadow fans asked for it…

Before Sonic heroes, even I liked the idea of Shadow coming back, nowadays I wish he had stayed in the grave…

The basic idea for shadow was the typical “Bad dude creates a clone of the hero, clone and hero fight, clone ends saving someone or the world, and diesâ€￾. So I not surprised that the resurrected Shadow is not a good character…Shadow was suposed to be a one game thing.

Shadow was a good idea for SA2, but after that...

SOME Shadow fans, you mean. I had no qualms with Shadow coming back, but I also hadn't hoped or asked for it.

Frieza2000 wrote:I think Metal Sonic's about as anti-hero as you get. I mean, he's Sonic...the hero, except made of metal and evil.

I believe the term anti-hero refers to a character who is somewhere between hero and villian, usually meaning that he works for himself, not good or evil. It's confusing because the term could also mean a character's opposite on a certain scale, as Metal Sonic is to Sonic.

The term anti-hero should never be used to refer to an out-and-out villain, be they a hero's exact opposite or otherwise. Instead, think of characters like Han Solo or Wolverine or the Punisher. Anti-heroes are protaganists or supporting characters who are too flawed to fit the profile of the traditional hero -- too murderous or theiving or self-absorbed or even just apathetic -- but who still usually end up "doing the right thing" by the end of the story.

In Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow is a pretty typical anti-hero character. You could probably say the same for E-102 in Sonic Adventure 1. But Metal is really just an out-and-out villain; outside of the anime of course.

Nova wrote:Sonic heroes killed all the appeal Metal sonic had.

For all we, "we" as in the gaming community, are concerned, Sonic Heroes basically killed all the appeal the Sonic series and the entire cast of characters had. Even those whom once retained the almighty badassness of Sonicdom, such as Espio, Eggman and Metal Sonic, have been reduced to daisy throwing pansies. It's as if SONICTEAM intentionally tried to make all the badass characters into so much Yoshi Story-esque mish mush.

Consider, MARVEL decided that Carnage is too mean and scarey, so they decided to hire some Japanese flash-artists, you know, those people that make the ILoveEgg series, and turned Carnage into a chibi, happy-go-lucky Teen Titan imitation with a chibi penguin sidekick in a Japanese school-girl outfit who carries a bubble blower.

That's what SONICTEAM did with all the badass Sonic characters. Metal Sonic wasn't really supposed to talk, but to make matters worse, they made him whine about how he's the real Sonic throughout the entire boss fight. Then they decided to turn Eggman into a whimpering old man who was, once again, betrayed by his own creation and locked in some room the entire game whilst getting his ass kicked by Charmy. Charmy for fuck's sake! And Espio... Well... He shouldn't have been assoicated with the game to begin with. But that's not his fault, so I still like him.

Well, that was sure a rant made in panic. But unlike most people, I'm not going to define the progress of the Sonic series by just one game. It is clear SONICTEAM learned their lesson to not to turn Carnage into a chibi, happy-go-lucky Teen Titan imitation by making the Shadow game as they did with a dark storyline with a sophisticated script (As far as Sonic games go anyway). I will excuse Metal Sonic, Eggman, Espio, and all the characters of the series effected by Sonic Heroes' brain-numbing wave of TEH KIDDYNESS. We all have times when we act a bit childish. As you can see, I am no exception.