The Ideal 3D Sonic Game

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CM August
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The Ideal 3D Sonic Game

Post by CM August »

Most of us find the upcoming Sonic games pretty depressing, save perhaps for the next-gen title in the works. I know I do, which is why I've been playing the hell out of the old titles. Sonic Adventure, in particular. And the more I play it, the more I think of how many things it got right. I tend to agree with GG, it's definitely the best example of a 3D Sonic game.

As time goes on, I usually grow less enthused with things I enjoyed years earlier. Developing critical thinking, I suppose. However, that's not the case with Sonic Adventure. The glaring flaws become much more apparent, but I'm still impressed with things like the story, characters and locales.

Story-wise, I really appreciated the game exploring long-established concepts like the fall of Echidna civilization, and the character of E-102 Gamma was a breakthrough. Both of these were perfect examples of simple but deep storytelling, with honesty and... well, heart.

The music was fucking excellent, very diverse and fresh. Much better than SA2's for instance, where level music revolved around the character's specific theme - rap for the Knuckles stages, jazz for Rouge, etc.

The levels? Brilliant. To borrow a line from CP, "I still think that Sonic Adventure is the most aesthetically pleasing Sonic game yet, and definitely the one with the most in-level variety as well as variety between levels. It wasn't perfect mind, it lacked chequered stuff, the original animals and Chaotix-esque psychadelia, but I'll be damned if it doesn't offer the best template of how Sonic's world should look."
Can't put it much better than that.

Of course there were many aspects of the game that seriously needed improvement, like the controls, camera and glitches, but overall SA delivered a good deal of what I expected from a 3D Sonic game. Basically this thread is for expressing what you feel would be an ideal 3D Sonic game; or simply affirming, disputing or adding to what you thought SA got right. The subject has probably been done countless times before, but I'd seriously like to know what you think.

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Post by Frieza2000 »

You see the things few others do. Big ups. And don't forget about the insane amount of detail in the levels and adventure stages. Hanging pictues, posters in the windows, various pieces of moving and interactive background elements. You can tell how much effort was put into it. I wish people who praise SA2 could appreciate that.

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Post by BlazeHedgehog »

Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes seemed to rely too heavily on the "highways suspended over bottomless pits" motif. In Sonic Adventure, levels felt like locations. Rather than lead you in a straight line to the finish, they twisted around, allowed for backtracking, etc. There was a definite sense of "place". You weren't running around race tracks, you were running around locations - real places.

A good example of this is Twinkle Park. As you scale the castle section, you can actually fall off of a platform and the only thing you lose is 40 seconds it took to climb up there. Sonic Adventure 2 and Heroes, on the other hand - fall off whatever platform you're standing on, and 98% of the time, you've just lost a life and have to start over from the checkpoint again. Another good example of this is Speed Highway: At Dawn. You can stick to the rooftops for the best short cuts, or you can hit the streets and take the long way around. Levels like this, on a bigger scale, would be awesome; alternate routes are the name of the game.

One improvement I'd like to see, though, is emphasis on Sonic's more unique abilities; running across walls, skimming water, etc. Ninja Gaiden did this pretty well, as did last year's Spiderman 2 game (as well as the recent Hulk: Ultimate Destruction). Most of my friends agreed that Dash's chase sequence from The Incredibles should be a watermark as to how the next Sonic game should feel. There are so many games and other media on the market today that convey the sense of speed and style Sonic used to be about far better than the recent Sonic games ever have; and Sonicteam should feel ashamed for that. Burnout, for instance. Just the sound alone: the roaring wind, the woosh as cars whip past you at 150mph - I don't have to tell you how incredible it is, because most people already know.

Another thing I want to see less of, and this is something I advocated since the original Sonic Adventure: Less dash plates. Although their use has gotten much more streamlined since the original Sonic Adventure (which, at times, would pretty much play itself), but the fact that they're STILL in heavy use and STILL practically unavoidable aggrivates me something terrible. There are too many sections in the 3D Sonic games where they force you up to a certain speed wether you want to or not. Sonic Rush (and Burnout) has the right idea: A replenishable boost meter. Stick it on one of the L/R buttons; and give the player the choice when and where they want to enter "Super Speed" mode or not, rather than holding their hand around that loop-de-loop.

Infact, less hand-holding altogether is a good idea. I love the homing attack, and I love the light dash (assuming it actually works right when I want it to work right), but... there's too much automation in these games. Recent Sonic games are less about the player doing cool stuff and more about watching Sonic do cool stuff. I want to see more interaction. If Sonic grabs a vine and swings around on it, I want to be able to control that - not watch Sonic do it himself.

And, I dunno. I guess that's it.

(WooOooooo, look at me, I still lurk!)

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Post by CM August »

Frieza2000 wrote:You see the things few others do. Big ups. And don't forget about the insane amount of detail in the levels and adventure stages. Hanging pictues, posters in the windows, various pieces of moving and interactive background elements. You can tell how much effort was put into it. I wish people who praise SA2 could appreciate that.
God, yes. By that aspect alone, Sky Deck is the most impressive level. The entire stage involves traveling under the port wing to the tip, then doubling back across the top while fighting off the massive air currents. Then you make your way across the obstacle course that is the center of the Egg Carrier to burst the capsule. When I figured that out, I was gobsmacked. Not to mention all the control rooms you can peep into along the way! I gained a huge amount of respect for the level after that. There's such a strong sense of place that it makes Windy Valley's "sky" portion so dull in comparison.

Blaze, you bring up excellent points concerning the amount of interactivity. The way Sonic Adventure works, dash pads and the homing attack are pretty much a necessity because the camera, physics, movement, and the rest are not up to par. In fact, they're downright awful. Sonic hangs in the air when you hold the A button to jump (who ever actually taps it?) far longer than he should, draining all the energy and satisfaction out of making a successful hit as well as slowing you down. Even on painfully smooth runways like the skies of Windy Valley, it's very difficult to keep Sonic under control as he'll veer into the walls with the slightest touch. Grazing a wall usually results in the character "spazzing out" and coming to a halt completely.

Essentially, dash pads and the homing attack are lazy shortcuts. It may have been necessary back then, but now there is no excuse. Instead of correcting these problems in SA2 and beyond, they streamlined gameplay to the point of irrelevancy.

And speaking of Sonic's running on the walls and ceiling, that hardly even worked properly! The spinning tubes in Final Egg were a great throwback to the days of Metropolis Zone and Flying Battery. But they couldn't pull it off, and Sonic repeatedly grazes along the sides until you get the hell out of there. It's a damn shame.
Last edited by CM August on Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BlazeHedgehog »

Well, see, I like the homing attack. That's the one thing I think the series should keep above all else; as long as it's Sonic Adventure 2's homing attack (the type you had to actually aim. Sonic Adventure 1, and to some extent, Sonic Heroes', would hit ANYTHING near Sonic, reguardless of wether or not it was infront or behind him).

However, you bring up another good point: Sonic's twitchy control. Sonic Heroes tried to fix this, but they created an entirely new, worse problem: Rather than Sonic's control being too twitchy, it became too sluggish. There are times in Heroes you can hold almost completely left and Sonic has a difficult time turning. The ideal control scheme I want for Sonic, oddly, comes from a Mario game - in Super Mario Sunshine, you can get a FLUDD nozzle that allows Mario to run at high speed. On land, it sucks pretty hardcore. Mario turns very slowly, slower than even Sonic in Sonic Heroes.

But once you get him out on the water, where he glides across the surface, the control becomes amazing. Steering Mario at that speed is absolutely a breeze. The control is just tight enough without being too twitchy. And that's how I want Sonic to control.

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Post by Senbei »

I think both Adventure games got it right in their respective genres. What I mean is that Sonic Adventure was an ADVENTURE game, while SA2 was more an action game. In SA, we were treated to expansive, intricate, and interesting environments with lots of easter eggs. However, this slowed down the gameplay a lot, and probably had much to do with the bad camera angles. SA2 took it from a different approach, removing the adventure fields and returning to what felt like "zones," individual stages that had almost nothing to do with each other and were very linear, which allowed for those bottomless pits. But, this also allowed for better, cooler, and faster gameplay, which I found more fun, which is why I will always prefer SA2. And, personally, I have always felt pretty hands-on with SA2's control. There are few things comparable to homing attacking a chain of enemies then zipping along a string of rings with the Light Dash, even if it's all set up for you. If a game could somehow combine both Adventures and fix the bugs, add a new storyline that wasn't over the top but still intricate and exciting, and focus more on Sonic's gameplay... but that could never happen. StH '06 is the only hope...

So instead, I vouche for a Sonic RPG!!

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Post by Owen Axel »

The one thing I've always really wanted to do in a Sonic game is to be able to run freely throughout a wide open area, rather like the Sonic CD intro FMV. I've never been entirely satisfied with the restricted level design having you run through a narrow path. For cavern and building levels it's well fitting, but for the outdoorsey areas I'm still pining for the freedom to run free instead of having to follow a set route surrounded by barriers and/or bottomless pits.

The adventure fields of Sonic Adventure really appealed to me for that reason, but if only they'd been bigger. A LOT bigger.

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Post by Delphine »

Senbei wrote:So instead, I vouche for a Sonic RPG!!
*chokes* what

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Post by IrkenSnax »

I agree with Senbei. A nice balance between to the two adventure games would be great. The level design of SA, and the gameplay mechanics of SA2. There would be bugs to work out and the camera would need fixing, but it's friggin' 2005. SEGA HAS THE TECHNOLOGY TO MAKE NON-SUCKING CAMERAS.

I hope this is the direction StH '06 is going.

Anyways, I loved the adventure feilds in SA. The past Echidna city was probably my favorite. The only thing that bothered me were some of the invisable walls. I'd see this green ledge and think of how cool the view would be then, SMACK. Invisable wall.

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Post by Professor Machenstein »

Since I cannot say what has already been said, I'll add some ideas of my own as to how to improve the gameplay mechanics in the 3D Sonic games.

As oppose to simply holding B, I want to actually rev-up the Spindash again, as in ducking and tapping the action-button. The "hold B to Spindash" method made sense in Flickies' Island because the only way of controlling Sonic was the D-Pad. You couldn't hold down to duck because the game was in a bird-eye's view, so holding down lead to Sonic going in the south direction. But now, prior to Sonic Adventure, you can control Sonic using the analogue stick... So what functionality should the D-Pad have? Simple, to duck. So when holding down the D-Pad, you can tap the action-button to rev-up the Spindash. Somewhat like Sonic R's Spindash. Speaking of that, I want to actually roll down inclines again like you could in Sonic 1. Sonic R managed to do that in 3D. While running, you could tap down on the D-Pad to roll. But in Sonic R, you can control the direction you went as you rolled, since it was in 3D and all.

Another mechanic I'd like to see changed is Tails' Helitail (Assuming he'll ever be playable again outside of his mech, Fly Formation, or an AI-controlled NPC). Simply put, I want the Helitail to work like it did in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but in 3D. It worked very nicely in Sonic Robo Blast 2. As oppose to just holding the jump button in midair to fly like in Sonic Adventure, tap the jump button to engage Helitail and keep tapping to go up.

I can't think of anything else right now. But I really hate the blind jumping. When you go really high, the camera focuses on what's behind Sonic instead of what's below him. So what's the solution? Think of those blue eco platforms from Jak and Daxter; when Jak launches off a blue eco platform, the camera shifts directly above Jak's head to view what's below him, allowing you to concentrate on wear to land. Plus, it really gives you the sensation that you're really falling.

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Post by The Doc »

I don't remember ever seeing this in a Sonic game, so I'll mention it now.

Remember in Speed Highway: Goin' Down?!?, you crashed through the glass ceilings at the end? Well, I was actually thinking that it would have been a nice touch if, while Sonic was running down, the windows would ALL shatter behind him due to his ridiculous speed. That's just an observation I thought would be kinda sweet.

And for the record, I also prefer SA2. Much darker in tone than the original.

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Post by Double-S- »

Sonic + darker = Shadow. Barf.

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Post by Frieza2000 »

SA2 was more of an obstacle course than SA1. Instead of exploring, you tried to jump through hoops and do tricks to make the grade. Like NiGHTS but in 3D. I prefer exploring, but I enjoy a well designed obstacle course. A fusion of both would probably be best.

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Post by CM August »

Blaze Hedgehog wrote:Well, see, I like the homing attack. That's the one thing I think the series should keep above all else; as long as it's Sonic Adventure 2's homing attack (the type you had to actually aim. Sonic Adventure 1, and to some extent, Sonic Heroes', would hit ANYTHING near Sonic, reguardless of wether or not it was infront or behind him).
While I enjoy the homing attack and its benefits, it's still too cheap of a move. Previous Sonic games were driven by momentum, and by taking advantage of the environment you could reach incredible speeds. The homing attack, on the other hand, gives you a huge amount of momentum "for free."

Although I do think the homing attack should be retained in some form. I'd say everyone would like the 3 shields to come back - water, lightning, and fire - and the homing attack/quick dash would be perfect for the fire sheild. It just seems to fit so well, as would the bounce attack (relegated to the B button to avoid screwups) and double jump for the other two shields. Come to think of it, the insta-shield ability would work very well too. If a regular jump could cover a generous amount of distance with no loss of speed like they used to, it'd go a long way to keeping the gameplay up to speed. These features would more than make up for the loss of the homing attack while enhancing gameplay.
Professor Machenstein wrote:So what functionality should the D-Pad have? Simple, to duck.
Some people may find it tricky or just plain inconvenient to reach the D-pad. For some time now I think the best place to put it would be the Z trigger for Gamecube and the R2 button for PS2, to cite an example. It would be as easy as adjusting the camera angle with the L and R buttons. Crouching could have other benefits on its own, such an improving your grip on unstable surfaces (imagine sonic being able to cling to the floor in Sky Deck's windy portion) or allowing Knuckles to do his uppercut move without spinning the control stick like a fool. Simply stand still, crouch and press A.

On another note, I really appreciate being able to uncurl while spinning by simply pressing B. It's a logical, very useful move that's beneficial without being cheap, and my favourite addition to Sonic's moveset.
The Doc wrote:And for the record, I also prefer SA2. Much darker in tone than the original.
The more I think about SA2's story, the more I dislike it. Shadow's backstory (and the backbone of the game) is incredibly cynical. And not even Sonic Adventure gave the impression that Sonic and co. "protect and serve" humanity, so to speak. Humans, for their part, are depicited as incompetent and utterly fallible. The rest of the story is peppered with incredibly lazy shortcuts. Amy shows up on Prison Island, by herself, and possessing exactly the right keycard to open Sonic's cell. What the fuck?

I thought Sonic Adventure had just the right amount of dark moments, such as Tikal's backstory and E-102's inevitable death. The difference is they are far more insightful than any of the "dark" sequences in SA2.

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Post by Professor Machenstein »

CM August wrote:Some people may find it tricky or just plain inconvenient to reach the D-pad. For some time now I think the best place to put it would be the Z trigger for Gamecube and the R2 button for PS2, to cite an example.
I thought of that right after I posted my idea. I was thinking, "Wouldn't it be pretty dexterous if some actually managed to use the analogue stick and the directional pad with the same hand?" So, yes, you're right. Crouching should be assigned to Z (Gamecube), or R1 (PlayStation 2). Using the directional pad to roll was a dumb idea too. To roll, you have to be running, right? And to run, you have the use the analogue stick, but then you'd have to press down on the directional pad, but to do that you have to let go of the analogue stick and... Well, you know the results.

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Post by Nova »

Sonic adventure 1 without Big, game bugs and with a camera that works well. That would be the ideal 3D Sonic game. And about the controls, just make a game where the controls can be configured by the player.

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Post by chriscaffee »

To this day I still don't understand all the bitching about the camera.

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Post by Senbei »

CM August wrote:The rest of the story is peppered with incredibly lazy shortcuts. Amy shows up on Prison Island, by herself, and possessing exactly the right keycard to open Sonic's cell. What the fuck?
Editing. Think of it this way -- do you really WANT to know how she got that card? She would have gotten it, with or without an explanation as to how. Do you really want to waste time finding out? The thing to remember about SA2 storywise is that it is, again, an action game, not adventure or RPG, where the story can really be explored. Thus, we have cutscenes, and, even if there were plot holes, they were damn good cutscenes.

Moving on ... I agree with most of the discussion about control and Sonic's moves, so I won't blabber about that, but there is one move I would like to see -- jumping on vertical surfaces; that is, wall to wall movement. That's something we see a lot of in anime adaptions and I'd like to have the ability to do it.

As for the RPG thing...it may seem blasphemous, generic, and childish. But at this point, what isn't? It could work -- it did for Mario. Several times.
Meh.

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Post by CM August »

Storytelling fails when the game would need a huge amount of diversions for the plot to even make sense. SA2 was chock-full of this. On a related note, in every previous Sonic game the Chaos Emeralds were difficult to come by; existing either in a pocket universe or hidden somewhere in a level. In SA2, FIVE Chaos Emeralds were obtained by the human government - one placed in the federal reserve bank, one given to Tails for saving Station Square, and the other three placed in the Prison Island vaults. The other two were in the possession of Rouge and Eggman, but we don't know how they got them. Lazy, lazy, lazy.

Oh yeah... I remember how Sonic Adventure was initially described as a Role-Playing Action Game. That wasn't actually the case, of course, but in a few early screenshots there's a "level" indicator on the HUD. They probably once planned to have an experience/level up feature, but wisely dropped it.

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Post by VGJustice »

chriscaffee wrote:To this day I still don't understand all the bitching about the camera.
I do. Ocasionally, the camera would get a mind of its own and go kinda loopy, and it would also ocasionally get "stuck" and you wouldn't be able to move it anymore. Yeah, that's it as far as I know, it didn't bug me too much.

But, damn, all this talk of SA1 makes me wanna play it again. I think I will.

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Post by BlazeHedgehog »

CM August wrote:The more I think about SA2's story, the more I dislike it.
It's been the opposite for me. Seems the more I learn about it, from stuff like Rouge's Report and what-not, the more I seem to be warming up to it.
chriscaffee wrote:To this day I still don't understand all the bitching about the camera.
At first, I didn't either, but the more I play these games the more it starts to become noticable - especially in the first Sonic Adventure. There are a lot of places you can go where the Camera refuses to cooperate, resulting in a lot of untimely deaths. (I know there's a secret area in Final Egg that's almost IMPOSSIBLE to reach because the Camera often times will freak out)

The main problem with the camera, I believe, is a "feature" Sonicteam designed that basically tries to point the player in the right direction. No matter how much you try to tweak the camera, it invariably re-positions itself to show the player where to go in the level. Problem is, this makes backtracking a huge bitch, as the camera is always pointing you forward; disabling you from seeing what's directly behind you. (Sonic Adventure 2 especially is guilty of this)

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Post by CM August »

Yeah. After reading "Rouge's Report" I also felt a renewed appreciation for the story... for a time. Later on I looked at the plot as a whole and decided I still disliked it. Although some obvious thought and detail was put into the backstory, it's very convulted (with the Shadow game complicating matters further) and the deeply cynical outlook doesn't appeal to me at all. Humans played a much more prominent role as being ignorant bastards, and the majority of SA2's enemies are their military's GUN robots. It doesn't carry the same theme or essense from the previous games at all.

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Post by Frieza2000 »

BlazeHedgehog wrote:(I know there's a secret area in Final Egg that's almost IMPOSSIBLE to reach because the Camera often times will freak out)
The camera won't let you in there because that was originally an alternate path, but was removed from the game. Even if you get back there, there's nothing but a few rings.

I've played through SA1 at least 10 times and the camera has never bothered me to the extent that I'd call it broken. But I tend to be tolerant of minor control or visual failures because I'm so immersed in the game that I don't pay attention to it.

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Post by Senbei »

CM August wrote:Humans played a much more prominent role as being ignorant bastards, and the majority of SA2's enemies are their military's GUN robots. It doesn't carry the same theme or essense from the previous games at all.
Because Eggman is a playable character. It wouldn't make much sense to have him blowing his own 'bots up. (ixnay on Egg Golem) Meanwhile, I can accept the government getting hold of the Emeralds ... in SA1, they weren't really in pocket zones, more like just lying around someplace. There weren't even temples or something for the Emeralds to be hidden in, they were just sitting at the other end of a valley or mountain. In fact, it's always bothered me how Sonic and Tails knew to find the Emeralds in those locations, which serves to point out that SA1 also had a number of plotholes. Futhermore, one of the Emeralds was found as a prize in a casino ... I may be reading too much into it, but that implies that humans found it then as well as in SA2. My point is: if Eggman or Sonic can find Emeralds, it wouldn't be that hard for the government to, and SonicTeam needed a new foe so that Eggman could be a playable character.

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