Sonic level design, a discussion.

[Radrappy]

That's quite the twist. Too bad Sonic Team doesn't make intelligent decisions like that anymore.

Speaking of bosses. I remember not realizing what a terrible game Heroes was until I fought the egg Hawk.

[Crazy Penguin]

Egg Viper was one of the best bosses, but it still operated in too much of a set pattern. And the homing attack was a bit wonky, but that's not really the fault of the boss itself. The best boss in the 3D games was Biolizard, despite it sharing some of Egg Viper's problems - not exactly a 3D playing area and follows a set pattern.

Tell you what I really hate, those senseless character vs character bosses. It was a cute novelty with Knuckles in S3&K, but in Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 and Heroes they were an utter mess of button tapping, camera changing and ballsed up homing attacks. Sonic Rush did a good job with it, until the button tapping at the very end.

And agreed about Super Sonic. Super Sonic isn't special any more. I praise Sonic Battle for not going down that route. Super Sonic should be an "Oh, cool!" moment, it loses that when he's in every game, fighting the very end boss.

The other major problem is that it changes the gaemplay style for the grand finale. None of those flying battles felt like you were controlling Sonic or playing a platformer, it created a disconnect from the rest of the game. Sonic Adventure handled it best in that respect. That being said though, I did really enjoy Sonic Rush Adventure's final boss, it was the best out of all the Super Sonic flight battles, it's just become too much of a cliche at this point.

[Radrappy]

You know, in sonic adventure it was kind of exciting. I think the only fight between characters was with or against knuckles. I thought it pretty much kept the charm of Sonic 3 & K considering it really didn't take the place of any boss fights.

[FlashTHD]

There was also Gamma, and Sonic when playing as Knux or Gamma. The 'bot is a complete hopeless knockover, but Sonic poses a fairly decent threat.

Vs. Character fights are fine when they truly feel like the boss battles they pass themselves off as, as in SA2. SA1's i'll call forgivable for being worked into the story the way they were. The rest have suffered from glitches, bad planning, or both. Hell to Rush's - you just wait it all out for an opening (your opponent standing stupidly still, waiting for an assramming or whatever), hope you strike quick enough, then murder your A and B buttons at the end. Boo, hiss.

[DackAttac]

Yeah, SA1's were excusable since they were incredibly plot-related, and SA2's were structured like real bosses but Heroes' were the epitome of a lack of structure and a lack of necessity. Can't vouch for S06, but my expectations aren't high.

[FlashTHD]

Can't vouch for S06, but my expectations aren't high.

Good. They spam the same simplistic "chase and attack" pattern with their moves the entire time each one, and the camera spitefully chooses these fights to stop helping you any.

[Isuka]

I second CP, the battle against Knuckles in SA1 felt somewhat lame and superficial, as if they were forced to settle Knuckles' character by re-enacting his role as a rival. It was nice as a wink to those who played 3&K, but nothing more.

[Zeta]

I was actually worried about breaking my goddamn DS at the end of Rush.

[Xyton]

Mind you, I mean "act" in more of the SA1 sense, where the music takes on a different arrangement and subgenre (but the melody remains), the scenery changes, but it's still the same level. No "act cleared" screen and music, just a segue into the next part. Also, the level-specific elements stay constant. For instance, the crab enemies from the beach will still be found on the fleet ships and the base, just to keep some consistency.

Mmm, I think this should be determined by the length of the stage. I think there's definitely merit in what you saying about length versus time, but if the stage exceeds around five minutes, I think acts proper are in order. One of the things I've liked about Sonic games historically is that they're great for quick [re]plays: You can sit down and play a stage or two even if you have only a few minutes. This does not mean I think there's should be full stops between acts, necessarily. If loading wasn't an issue, it could be something like twice as fast as S3&K -- just bring up a thing that gives you your score and grade, move it out and the banner for the next act in, and off you go. Sonic may not even need to stop running. Then, at the end of the zone, they could give you a more detailed breakdown (for both acts) and hold it on the screen. That way you could keep "short burst" playability without getting in the way of people playing for longer. If there ARE loading issues, all the more reason to break it down. Then again, I suppose that's coming from Sonic '06, really. SA1 / SA2 didn't have load issues, nor was I bothered by the length of the stages, but really, where there any stages in those games that took 10+ minutes to clear the first time (or after), except maybe Crazy Gadget?

[Hybrid]

Fuck you, Pumpkin Hill/Meteor Herd.

[Xyton]

...oh yeah, Knuckles' stages.... @_@

I actually kinda LIKED the scavenger hunt thing, particularly when you could find the gems in any order, but yeah, some of those stages were ugh.

[Tsuyoshi-kun]

Knuckles' levels were actually kind of fun in Sonic Adventure 1, since the levels were big but not overwhelming. Plus, the radar allowed to track you down any missing shards, not one at a time.

Also, the first time I did Death Chamber in Sonic Adventure 2 it took me over a half-hour to find all three shards. I'm dead serious.

[BlazeHedgehog]

Meteor Herd and Mad Space, respectively, took me over 30 minutes my first time too. I think Mad Space actually took me closer to an hour my first time.

[Senbei]

Mad Space and Death Chamber are the worst because they're split into sections that aren't easily accessible from anywhere in the level. Even Meteor Herd and Pumpkin Hill are easy by comparison because it's pretty easy to get around.

[P.P.A.]

I found most of the hunting stages very fun (once I learned their layouts) actually...

I don't like how Sonic 2, 3&Knuckles and Advance had their bosses at the end of the second Act (or the first too in S3K's case). It was so... abrupt, not to mention it can screw over TAs (though I never TAed those games so I can just assume). I prefer the way Sonic CD and the 8-bit games did it, with having a short separate act for the boss you can use on collecting rings and stuff. Can't really explain why, but it feels... more correct that way.

[DackAttac]

I actually like that myself, but probably for opposite reasons. Mainly because the short little bit before the act got gradually longer and more difficult as the game went along. Atomic Destroyer Act 3—possibly the best GG moment ever.

[Rob-Bert]

Before you all execute me for bumping a months-old topic, let me say this happens to be a Sonic-related subject I've been thinking about likely what with all the news about Sonic Unleashed popping up, and decided to adapt this essay I wrote a while back chronicling an idea I got while playing Sonic Adventure 2.

Anyway, this concept struck when I was looking around the map in the Stage Select mode after wondering how the game could’ve been improved or what could’ve been improved in the grimy sequels that followed. While doing this I was simultaneously thinking of topics such this one I'm posting in right now, specifically the earlier posts about the open-ended thing. I looked over the map, and then it clicked…

That fucking map could’ve easily been a full-fledged open-ended world! I mean, think about it... in spite of the fact that the game is split into individual levels, they’re obviously meant to be arranged as part of an actual cohesive world as evidenced by that map. This was clearly done to go in accordance with the story, but in retrospect, it would’ve rocked balls if the levels were actually connected and you were free to run from one area to another as any character of your choice without needing a Stage Select screen. My thinking is that had the game been built this way the levels would not be levels but areas, and the game would be something more along the lines of a later Jak & Daxter game or something. Just try to picture some of the environments present in SA2, then try to picture them as more robust and fleshed out instead of just bread-and-butter platforming stages, with the ability to go from one to another by taking certain routes.

For example, when you start the game in City Escape, it would not be the same straightforward “streetboard > grind rails > homing attack chain of enemies > grind more rails > run through loop and down side of building > homing attack more enemies > final chase sequence with bigass truck >goal” thing over and over, but instead you’d have this big ol’ sprawling city to run through (which sorta harkens back to what Senbei spoke about on the first page of this thread). Remember that part in the streetboard segment with the streets that you can’t go down? Now you would be able to run down them at any opportunity and then some. You could run on the sides of buildings, jump across rooftops, perform tricks off of every object in sight, and generally just do what Sonic would do in a citywide environment. It would be like Speed Highway and Station Square from SA1, except better. Much better. There also wouldn’t have to be a set goal, either. The city would have three possible exits: going north would take you to the island where Chao World is located as shown on the map, going east would take you out to Radical Highway and Mission Street, and going southeast would take you to Route 101 and Route 280.

Past the highway and other side of town would be the entrance to Aquatic Mine, and going through there and coming out the other side would take you to the “mountainous region” where Pumpkin Hill and Sky Rail are located. On the other side of the mountains would be the very edge of the desert (Wild Canyon) leading to an oasis (Dry Lagoon) and then the actual desert itself (Sand Ocean, Hidden Base) where Eggman’s hideout is located (which itself contains Pyramid Cave, Death Chamber, and Egg Quarters). Prison Island would be located in the middle of the ocean, and would also be a relatively large and complex area to explore by itself. It alone has the shipyard just off the island (Metal Harbor and Weapons Bed), the jungle surrounding the prison compound (Green Forest and White Jungle), the entrance to the prison(Iron Gate) and finally the interior of the prison (Prison Lane and Security Hall).

Then you have the ARK. In order to get into space you’d have to use the space shuttle located in Eggman’s HQ. Space itself consists of Meteor Herd, Mad Space, Final Rush and Final Chase, and as you already know the ARK itself is pretty damn detailed, complete with an entrance (Cosmic Wall), the engine room (Eternal Engine) and the main hallway thingie (Crazy Gadget). Lastly, you’d have the hidden Green Hill Zone, which is located on that island just below the entrance to Route 101 on the map. That place would probably be sealed off until you get all 180 Emblems.

Now keep in mind, all these areas can be traversed entirely on foot, with the exception of needing a shuttle ride to get to the ARK, and any character would be playable for this. I suppose the original levels would need major tweaks and additions, but that was kinda the whole point- taking the stages from SA2 and making them into a huge interconnected sandbox world. Still, the areas formerly referred to as ”stages" could still have the original names, along with some way to signify that you’ve exited one area and entered another. My solution is to make it like Crash Twinsanity (the one that’s awesome despite everyone hating it) and have a special point marker that activates automatically when you walk past it. This pointer would automatically save your game and let you know you’re in a new area. Imagine: You’re in City Escape, then when you get to the edge of the city, there’d be a red point marker (the blue ones are just regular checkpoints) in front of the entrance to the highway. You pause your game before going past it. The pause menu says you’re in City Escape. You run past the point marker, it goes off, the game tells you it’s saving. Save complete. Now you pause the game and the name of the area has changed to Radical Highway. Too much to absorb?

Of course, for those of you who wouldn’t want the levels to be tweaked beyond what they were but still want a connected world, they could make the areas one-way (also like in Crash Twinsanity) and always have a route to enter and exit a specific place. For example, you would only be able to get to Mission Street from City Escape by going through Radical Highway, but the only way to get back to City Escape from Mission Street is to take Route 101. Do you follow? Granted, that would kind of limit some of the freedom and isn’t exactly my personal preference, but I digress. I just thought I’d offer up another possible method to go alongside my first idea.

Now we're left with other details. Obviously there’s the story progression. In the original game, you’re forced from one area to another for the sake of the story, since the game was entirely linear. If we want the game to be less linear, we have to make some compromises. This would come in the form of the adventure game standard missions list. As soon as you start the game, you’re immediately on the first mission, which is to “elude the military pursuit”. This introductory mission would play out like a standard Sonic level, in which you have to pick the quickest path to get to a specifically marked goal in the city. After that, the first mission would be done, and you’d be free to explore the city with the only handicap being the GUN robots patrolling some areas and coming after you if they see you. For flavor, the city could have shops and stuff, like a bank to store your rings in. Each character could even have their own personal bank account. Once you’re done fiddling around and finding the hidden secrets the city has to offer, you could start your next mission by selecting it from a menu. The next mission in question would probably be either actually exiting the city or fighting that “Big Foot” boss or something, and the rest of the game would continue on in the same fashion. There would also have to be an option to replay missions you’ve already completed, along with some extra non-story missions, such as finding those lost Chao, gathering certain amounts of rings, defeating unimportant mini-bosses or doing speedruns from one place to another. I assume they could even include additional challenges like streetboarding and kart racing amongst the above.

Chao World would be first accessed by finding the Chao Key in the city and then going to that island up north on the map. After that, you’d find teleporters scattered around the world that take you back there. This also makes me think that there should also be general easy-access teleporters that take you from one place to another if you don’t have time to deal with all that legwork in your adventure. Lastly, the Master Emerald chunks and Chaos Emeralds would only be earned in story-driven missions, but after you beat the game seven rainbow-colored teleporters could appear in select places around the world. Entering these would take you to some sort of Special Stage, which upon completing would net you a Chaos Emerald for keeps. Get all seven and you can turn into Super Sonic by collecting 50 rings (if you’re playing as Sonic) and have a blast. Other little tidbits I came up with include the idea of a special “ring pad” that allows you to send your rings back to the bank so you don’t have to worry about losing them on whatever mission you’re playing, and the good and bad characters being treated differently by NPCs when you play as them.

The Level-Up Items would either be hidden in certain places or buyable at the shop. The shop would also sell stuff for the Chao Garden, unlockable features, and extra monitor items that you could carry with you if you need a boost for whatever reason. The mini-games and challenges I mentioned earlier would be entered by finding a teleporter/pad/special marker, and the same could probably apply to bosses and mini-bosses, sorta like those “practice arenas” from Sonic Battle. Some missions could even involve other characters challenging you (after all, it already actually happens withing the context of the story) and such. All in all, the game would more or less be a giant leap forward for the “adventure field” from SA1. I think what I just described could work rather well for a new Sonic game, which could definitely include more characters and stuff than what SA2 had, as well as a story more fitted to the type of game I’m describing. They could even include that day-to-night feature that was supposedly promised for Sonic '06 (and is now implemented haphazardly in Sonic Unleashed), and make it so that certain missions and junk are available only at night or day (like when entering Casinopolis in SA1). In short, I just wanted SA1 and 2 to be more of what the titles said they were: a Sonic “Adventure”.

[DackAttac]

I think you have a great if not fantastic idea for a Sonic game, but I'm not sure SA2 is totally compatible with the concept. The more difficult levels that would serve as the lone route from point A to point B would make this more infuriating, unless you had those portals all over the place which kind of defeats the purpose the levels interconnected. 'Cause the first time I beat Eternal Engine my first thought was, "I would rather give birth out my nostril than do that again." The only thing I can think of to soften the blow is to have some really obvious shortcuts to circumvent the hair-yanking moments that are blocked out only when you're playing a mission that wants you to play the game's duration. I do like your idea in that it takes a Secret Rings approach to missions (and although the game was hit and miss, this is one thing it hit the nail on the head with), only play the section of the level that's relevant to the goal. I'm imagining little Sonic tokens hovering over the start point for each mission, à la de Blob.

And even if there was a way to make it really work, it'd really change the game as we know it, since you're controlling two teams of three, neither of which are really united and in the same place until four to seven levels in. Also, the linear plot would really get in the way. Especially when you consider things like Sonic gets transported by GUN out of City Escape to Prison Island, which is blown to Kingdom Come relatively early on.

PS - Since this is always a pretty much relevant issue with the Sonic series as well as one of its former strengths, I personally don't mind seeing this bumped in the slightest.

[K2J]

This tentative game would have a working camera, I assume?

[Rob-Bert]

Yes, the game would need a working camera, and not just a "press two buttons to rotate" camera. I mean like the camera from Super Mario 64 (which stands to this day as the best camera possible in a 3D platformer), where you can pan left and right, zoom in and out, set it to first person or lock the camera behind Sonic at all times. Why these other developers never managed to capitalize on this system always baffled the hell outta me.

Since I first came up with that idea I don't really want a remake of SA2 anymore. It was just SA2 that sparked the whole thing in the first place, but I'd wager the settings and archetypes from both SA1 and 2 would've lent themselves really well to this set-up. Sonic Unleashed now has me thinking of even more ways to add on to this, case in point:

I was recently looking over the Shamar trailer again, and noticed how robust the background of each of these stages look. Then a I remembered how they opted to relegate the platforming aspects to the Werehog, and I said to myself: "Why couldn't they somehow merge both of these gameplay types together?" I would imagine that you'd have these big ol' closed in puzzle platforming areas which instead utilize Sonic's speed and spinball-based abilities (almost reminiscent of Sonic CD in three dimentions) rather than the Werehog's new Risatr-esque stretchy arms, and they'd be interspersed with these sort of "interstate loops" that take you around the world from one location to the next, which are where the game starts to play like the EXTREME SPEED-fests that the daytime stages are supposed to be.

It's almost like a Grand Theft Auto title, except you can run from one location to the other without a car, and you fight enemies and solve puzzles by rolling into a ball. Some areas could even appear more "skatepark" than others, with more loops and ramps in addition to half-pipes and bowls in the ground.

[Isuka]

I know it wasn't precisely the idea to suggest that something like this was even remotely workable on a Dreamcast, what with the lack of a camera stick and the system's limitations (think Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver, now try to make that play at incredibly high speeds while keeping the framerate at 30 fps), but this sounds like it could be feasible on the original Xbox with a heavily modified JSRF/ GunValkyrie engine. It could be totally possible to do on the 360, though.
As for the significance of adding free-roaming on an action-heavy title like Adventure 2 or Unleashed, it could easily backfire if done improperly, it could lead to "dead space" situations like 2K6's town stages unless there's an intelligent, involving placement of interactive gimmicks, obstacles and NPCs that also manage to neither get repetitive nor overtake the player's focus on action stages and missions.

But, put like that, it does sound quite promising and more Sonic-y.

[Spike]

Yes, the game would need a working camera, and not just a "press two buttons to rotate" camera. I mean like the camera from Super Mario 64 (which stands to this day as the best camera possible in a 3D platformer), where you can pan left and right, zoom in and out, set it to first person or lock the camera behind Sonic at all times. Why these other developers never managed to capitalize on this system always baffled the hell outta me.

You're kidding, right? I thought Mario 64's camera was quite possibly the WORST camera in a 3D game, ever! Want to walk in a straight line? Whoops! I'll pan slowly to the right instead and make you fall off. Wanna to pan the camera to the right by a few inches? Whoops! I'll go too far to the right and keep you from getting that right angle. Got that right angle? Whoops! I'll pan slowly to another area instead as you move a little. I fucking HATE Mario 64's camera. As much as I hate Sunshine, the camera was a BIG improvement. Too bad Galaxy's camera is full of suck, too(good game, though).

[Rob-Bert]

You must one of those guys that's never satisfied.

OK, let me rephrase it: Make the camera more like Banjo-Kazooie's camera. There, happy?

[Spike]

You must one of those guys that's never satisfied.

OK, let me rephrase it: Make the camera more like Banjo-Kazooie's camera. There, happy?

Oh, I don't hate Mario 64. Just the camera. It's not the zoom in, zoom out, first person, behind the camera part of the camera that bugs me. I just hate how you have very little control over the camera's positioning. It's one of the major factors that causes me to fuck up and fall into a bottomless pit in Mario 64. ESPECIALLY in the Clock level. Oh god, the clock level...

[Rob-Bert]

You must have horrible thumb coordination. The camera actually tries to help you by not getting stuck inside walls and whatnot. In SMS, you have to constantly re-adjust the camera if you want it to point in the right direction. If it had SM64's range limit with SMS's smooth operation with B-K's "behind the back" setting, it would be perfect in my book.

This is actually reminding me that I wanted to make another topic regarding another facet of Sonic in 3D that I haven't seen discussed in detail around here. I'll be back with it later.