I..I liked the running bosses. I thought it was a nifty way to liven up the boss battles and make them more exciting.DackAttac wrote:And running bosses? Stupid
Sonic on X-Play's 'franchises that need to die' list.
May as well hop on and add something to this bandwagon before it tires.
Advance 1: In defense of its' bland nature, the plan was to give SA2:B a handheld companion to showcase Nintendo's connectivity folly. They might as well have given us a run-of-the-mill Sonic game to while away with too, and hey, it worked in the early 90's with those Game Gear 8-bit Sonics. I sorta have a soft spot for Advance 1 simply because it apes the original mechanics and level design closer than its' sequels even tried to. The characters didn't play very differently but - just like S3&K - the differences were subtle enough that you could enjoy each of them no less than the others. Even slow and clunky Amy was a nice change of pace. It's not quite Sonic Pocket Adventure in terms of greatness, but it worked out.
Advance 2: Ew. Ew ew ew ew. You already know this is exhibit A in the trial against Sonic's recent speed hard-on (more below), so what else doesn't work? Cheap-o level design - there were stretches of Leaf Forest where I was wondering if something was eventually going to freaking happen, and I don't think I can ever forgive them for designing a volcano stage that has no fire.. The physics are less accurate and controllable, the Special Stages aren't worth the obscene effort, and of course, Cream the Rabbit merely existing. If I go back and play it, it's only to see if I can get 400,000 points by the end of the first two zones, while simultaneously racking up rings for the Chao Garden. Which means I never come back to it primarily for the main game.
Pinball Party: Best of the GBA five, and of course it has no Sonic gameplay elements whatsoever. Awesome time killer despite its' frustrating little design limitations and holes. Being able to pick up Arcade mode games where you left off sold me. It's the one GBA Sonic to do the terrible Sonic Advance sound engine justice too.
Battle: PPK-Heavy Attack combo. Chase. Aim Attack. Upper Attacks until dead. Or mash the R button. Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat...AUGH! This game is amazing in that it makes no efforts at all to provide much of any variety. Shameful that such a good story was wasted on such an obnoxious game.
Advance 3: Yeah, Blaze nailed it. Ugly as sin, even worse physics and level design, and more annoying music. Forcing the partner mechanic on us and breaking it at the same time was more than a little airheaded, as was making up a bunch of cool-looking moves that haven't any practical use.
Rush: The non-sucky Advance 2. I'm really mixed about this one. It's fun enough that I come back to it more than I do any of the Advance series, but not fun for the reasons I enjoy a Sonic game for. The further you get, the more it regresses back to why Advance 2's level layouts stunk. Dead Line was like a big outer space conveyor belt in that it practically played itself; I think so lowly of it that I have my ranks for Blaze's runs through the acts intentionally aligned to spell ASS (I got a big grin when I realized I could do that).
In fact, I feel a little guilty playing it, because it got such high marks from the press, and reading what the media had to say about the game gave (and still gives) me the impression that no one in the press truly understands, or wants to understand this series. It's speed, speed, speed they want, like having that alone is supposed to be as thrilling as the drug of the same name. To really put this into perspective, I dare you to show me a scan of someone in the media having nice things to say about Sonic Spinball, as in other than "blarg, game ugly, clunky, not Sonic, sucks". Brand me too paranoid but it's like they've all got the same opinion about how Sonic games should be. To be brief, it sours my trust of the press when they have anything to say about Sonic, it sours any anticipation I try to build up for Wild Fire, and Rush, decent though it may be, halfway strikes me as the current poster child for magnifying the speed aspect of the series and leaving the platforming part to shrivel.
But, nasty aftertaste aside, it managed some neat bosses and the best Special Stages in years, and again it does happen to be fun, so not a total loss. But i'd prefer not seeing a Rush 2.
Advance 1: In defense of its' bland nature, the plan was to give SA2:B a handheld companion to showcase Nintendo's connectivity folly. They might as well have given us a run-of-the-mill Sonic game to while away with too, and hey, it worked in the early 90's with those Game Gear 8-bit Sonics. I sorta have a soft spot for Advance 1 simply because it apes the original mechanics and level design closer than its' sequels even tried to. The characters didn't play very differently but - just like S3&K - the differences were subtle enough that you could enjoy each of them no less than the others. Even slow and clunky Amy was a nice change of pace. It's not quite Sonic Pocket Adventure in terms of greatness, but it worked out.
Advance 2: Ew. Ew ew ew ew. You already know this is exhibit A in the trial against Sonic's recent speed hard-on (more below), so what else doesn't work? Cheap-o level design - there were stretches of Leaf Forest where I was wondering if something was eventually going to freaking happen, and I don't think I can ever forgive them for designing a volcano stage that has no fire.. The physics are less accurate and controllable, the Special Stages aren't worth the obscene effort, and of course, Cream the Rabbit merely existing. If I go back and play it, it's only to see if I can get 400,000 points by the end of the first two zones, while simultaneously racking up rings for the Chao Garden. Which means I never come back to it primarily for the main game.
Pinball Party: Best of the GBA five, and of course it has no Sonic gameplay elements whatsoever. Awesome time killer despite its' frustrating little design limitations and holes. Being able to pick up Arcade mode games where you left off sold me. It's the one GBA Sonic to do the terrible Sonic Advance sound engine justice too.
Battle: PPK-Heavy Attack combo. Chase. Aim Attack. Upper Attacks until dead. Or mash the R button. Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat...AUGH! This game is amazing in that it makes no efforts at all to provide much of any variety. Shameful that such a good story was wasted on such an obnoxious game.
Advance 3: Yeah, Blaze nailed it. Ugly as sin, even worse physics and level design, and more annoying music. Forcing the partner mechanic on us and breaking it at the same time was more than a little airheaded, as was making up a bunch of cool-looking moves that haven't any practical use.
Rush: The non-sucky Advance 2. I'm really mixed about this one. It's fun enough that I come back to it more than I do any of the Advance series, but not fun for the reasons I enjoy a Sonic game for. The further you get, the more it regresses back to why Advance 2's level layouts stunk. Dead Line was like a big outer space conveyor belt in that it practically played itself; I think so lowly of it that I have my ranks for Blaze's runs through the acts intentionally aligned to spell ASS (I got a big grin when I realized I could do that).
In fact, I feel a little guilty playing it, because it got such high marks from the press, and reading what the media had to say about the game gave (and still gives) me the impression that no one in the press truly understands, or wants to understand this series. It's speed, speed, speed they want, like having that alone is supposed to be as thrilling as the drug of the same name. To really put this into perspective, I dare you to show me a scan of someone in the media having nice things to say about Sonic Spinball, as in other than "blarg, game ugly, clunky, not Sonic, sucks". Brand me too paranoid but it's like they've all got the same opinion about how Sonic games should be. To be brief, it sours my trust of the press when they have anything to say about Sonic, it sours any anticipation I try to build up for Wild Fire, and Rush, decent though it may be, halfway strikes me as the current poster child for magnifying the speed aspect of the series and leaving the platforming part to shrivel.
But, nasty aftertaste aside, it managed some neat bosses and the best Special Stages in years, and again it does happen to be fun, so not a total loss. But i'd prefer not seeing a Rush 2.
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BlazeHedgehog
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I'm actually torn about the whole "Sonic is about speed!" thing because I really like Sonic Advance 2 despite it having very little platforming. I like Sonic Advance 2 for what it is; not for it failing to capture what Sonic used to be. Ignoring the Genesis games, Advance 2 stands up very well as a good, fun Sonic game.
But yeah, no way Sonic should be about just speed. So I dunno!
But yeah, no way Sonic should be about just speed. So I dunno!
The sad thing about the "Sonic is about SPEED" thing is that I think it goes back to the 90s era. We still have people in the press thinking "Mario is the greatest platformer ever and we don't need anyone else, all Sonic has to offer is speed and that's all I want from him" ignoring the fact that a lot of Sonic games could be about fun exploration if you didn't hold down right like a dick the whole time.
In fact, there were very few sections in the first four games that were about nothing but speed. Sonic was intended to be faster than Mario, that's it. He's not supposed to play like he has a fucking rocket strapped to his ass and will die if he ever slows down.
In fact, there were very few sections in the first four games that were about nothing but speed. Sonic was intended to be faster than Mario, that's it. He's not supposed to play like he has a fucking rocket strapped to his ass and will die if he ever slows down.
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Majestic Joey
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personally I liked how the old sonic games gave you variety on how you can play. You could rush through the level, you try to get a lot of rings or you can explore. but mostly I like the exploration in the old sonic games. I mean sometimes when I play the old sonic games I find hidden paths that I never found before after like 12 years of playing those games. The new sonic games just don't have the same depth.
I don't really mind the newer Sonic games focusing more on speed than the old games used to, I just don't like it when speed is the only thing they offer. I think that Sonic games being based around his speed is just a natural progression of his character and abilities as the technology progresses to give a real sense of fast-paced movement, but Sonic is just as much about platforming as Mario is, so when Advance 2 came along and didn't require any directional input other than "right", it left a sour taste in my mouth. Advance 1 and 3, while not being particularly great, were a much better blend of speed and platforming than 2 was.
The reason I think Advance 2 sucks but Rush is great is because Rush actually manages a fairly decent marriage of both of the concepts Sonic is based on. Even in the Genesis games, Sonic only ever showed his trademark speed while moving along relatively straight paths, and you had to slow down when jumping from platform to platform. Rush made the platforming just as fast as everything else, which is what I really enjoyed about it; Its best levels had everything Sonic should have, but without the need to slow down. That's also why I'm excited for Wild Fire, even though we don't know how much platforming there will be in the final product, the potential is definitely there to emulate what Rush did right.
The reason I think Advance 2 sucks but Rush is great is because Rush actually manages a fairly decent marriage of both of the concepts Sonic is based on. Even in the Genesis games, Sonic only ever showed his trademark speed while moving along relatively straight paths, and you had to slow down when jumping from platform to platform. Rush made the platforming just as fast as everything else, which is what I really enjoyed about it; Its best levels had everything Sonic should have, but without the need to slow down. That's also why I'm excited for Wild Fire, even though we don't know how much platforming there will be in the final product, the potential is definitely there to emulate what Rush did right.
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Tsuyoshi-kun
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I don't see why Sonic Rush was so great. I got tired very quickly of having to restock on lives every zone because, like Sonic Heroes, the game nails you with deaths unil you memorize the level layout (I must've seen the Game Over screen more times in this game than any other Sonic game ever combined). And playing each level twice seemed pointless to me, as did the Spin Dash, which was now completely useless. The fact that every boss had an attack that could kill you instantly was annoying too...it reminded me more of Goemon and Mega Man than Sonic. I liked the music, and a couple of zones were fun, but otherwise, I don't see how this is any better than Dimps' Advance games. I'm glad Dimps didn't make a sequel.
Sonic Riders should've been a good game, but wasn't. I blame the poor level design, and the endless pits.
Sonic Advance was alright, 2 sucks, and 3 was ugly, but kinda fun. Toy Kingdom and Sunset Rock sucked, though.
I haven't played Shadow, and I doubt I will. I don't own a X-BOX 360 or PS3, and Sonic the Hedgehog wouldn't be the first game I play even if I did own them.
Sonic Riders should've been a good game, but wasn't. I blame the poor level design, and the endless pits.
Sonic Advance was alright, 2 sucks, and 3 was ugly, but kinda fun. Toy Kingdom and Sunset Rock sucked, though.
I haven't played Shadow, and I doubt I will. I don't own a X-BOX 360 or PS3, and Sonic the Hedgehog wouldn't be the first game I play even if I did own them.
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jenkins
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As resident Advance fan, I might as well do my part:
-Sonic Advance 1: Very good, very fun, very replayable game with great music in the last three levels, and good music for the rest of the game. Amy makes a solid arrival into the 2D playable cast with a good variety of offensive moves and jumps to make up for piss-poor speed (I love how you can hammer a spring in that game...very handy). I've played through the game countless times, and play each act differently depending on my character. I still haven't explored all of Casino Paradise, I still haven't tired of Egg Rocket, and I still haven't reached the Moon Zone, because the only part of the game that sucks are the Special Stages. Too bad, but I find Special Stages to be hit-or-miss in general. Besides, they still beat SAdv2's Special Stages.
-Sonic Advance 2: Fun at times, but the sheer lack of obstacles in the first three zones is pretty depressing. Also, Sky Canyon was absolutely terrible, easily the worst zone in the entire Advance series (does anyone else wonder what that arrow made of rings is for?). Techno Base was a neat idea, and handy in that it was the first Advance level to clearly mark its bottomless pits. Egg Utopia had great music, and once you know what to do, the grinding segments are pretty thrilling. But too many cheap deaths take out a lot of the fun. Running bosses worked pretty well within that game, but I'm glad Sonic Team dropped the idea fairly quickly. Also, the Special Stages were the worst in any Sonic game I'd ever played.
-Sonic Advance 3: Pretty much in agreement with everything that's already been said, except that I liked Twinkle Snow. The music isn't half bad, though it gets pretty repetitive after a while. Cyber Track was a dismal rehash of Techno Base, and the color scheme was absolutely retarded. Chaos Angel was fairly cool, especially Act 3, but ridiculously easy to get killed in, with the most cheap deaths in the game (eg. forcing you to ride that platform in Act 3 under boulder chutes while they were firing). The game's redemption is in its Special Stages, which were fairly fun to unlock and fairly easy to beat, with excellent music.
And I've never played Battle, Pinball, or Rush, so I'll trust what everyone's already said on them.
-Sonic Advance 1: Very good, very fun, very replayable game with great music in the last three levels, and good music for the rest of the game. Amy makes a solid arrival into the 2D playable cast with a good variety of offensive moves and jumps to make up for piss-poor speed (I love how you can hammer a spring in that game...very handy). I've played through the game countless times, and play each act differently depending on my character. I still haven't explored all of Casino Paradise, I still haven't tired of Egg Rocket, and I still haven't reached the Moon Zone, because the only part of the game that sucks are the Special Stages. Too bad, but I find Special Stages to be hit-or-miss in general. Besides, they still beat SAdv2's Special Stages.
-Sonic Advance 2: Fun at times, but the sheer lack of obstacles in the first three zones is pretty depressing. Also, Sky Canyon was absolutely terrible, easily the worst zone in the entire Advance series (does anyone else wonder what that arrow made of rings is for?). Techno Base was a neat idea, and handy in that it was the first Advance level to clearly mark its bottomless pits. Egg Utopia had great music, and once you know what to do, the grinding segments are pretty thrilling. But too many cheap deaths take out a lot of the fun. Running bosses worked pretty well within that game, but I'm glad Sonic Team dropped the idea fairly quickly. Also, the Special Stages were the worst in any Sonic game I'd ever played.
-Sonic Advance 3: Pretty much in agreement with everything that's already been said, except that I liked Twinkle Snow. The music isn't half bad, though it gets pretty repetitive after a while. Cyber Track was a dismal rehash of Techno Base, and the color scheme was absolutely retarded. Chaos Angel was fairly cool, especially Act 3, but ridiculously easy to get killed in, with the most cheap deaths in the game (eg. forcing you to ride that platform in Act 3 under boulder chutes while they were firing). The game's redemption is in its Special Stages, which were fairly fun to unlock and fairly easy to beat, with excellent music.
And I've never played Battle, Pinball, or Rush, so I'll trust what everyone's already said on them.
I'm always surprised by the flak that Sonic Advance 3 gets compared to the previous two. I thought it was the best of the Advance series by far.
I think the thing about the Advance games that makes them so divisive is that each one manages to get one or two of the classic Sonic elements right, and then screw the rest up. But it's a different one or two elements in each game.
Your favourite Sonic Advance game says a lot about which aspects of the classic games were your favourite parts. Even though it was slower and uglier than Sonic Advance 2, and cheaper than Sonic Advance 1, I like Sonic Advance 3 because of it's focus on multiple paths, weird interactive gadgets and platforming challenges. (I also thought the music was miles ahead of the other two.)
I think the thing about the Advance games that makes them so divisive is that each one manages to get one or two of the classic Sonic elements right, and then screw the rest up. But it's a different one or two elements in each game.
Your favourite Sonic Advance game says a lot about which aspects of the classic games were your favourite parts. Even though it was slower and uglier than Sonic Advance 2, and cheaper than Sonic Advance 1, I like Sonic Advance 3 because of it's focus on multiple paths, weird interactive gadgets and platforming challenges. (I also thought the music was miles ahead of the other two.)
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EmeraldGuardian
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I sometimes wonder if Sonic's design change since SA1 had to do with anything. Before he was all squat and bouncy and could move anyway he wanted and it looked right. Now he's all slick and tall and has mega influence on attitude so of course he LOOKS like he has to blast off in flames. Hell, if you look at his model in SA1 he still looked more squat than he does now. I don't know, I've actually just realized how much it bugs me.
Music also confuses me in the series. From the whole Sonic 360 soundtrack I've heard from, Dreams of an Absolution is my favorite. Because it actually has a sense of Sonic to it. The upbeat techno, even the familiar Green Hill tune it carries brings out a feeling about what Sonic could still be. Sure, the music's always been good in the series but it needs more than rock. The whole jazzy jpop thing was with Sonic in the begining and I'm curious to see how that would look with him today.
By the way, what ever happened to Richard Jaques?
Music also confuses me in the series. From the whole Sonic 360 soundtrack I've heard from, Dreams of an Absolution is my favorite. Because it actually has a sense of Sonic to it. The upbeat techno, even the familiar Green Hill tune it carries brings out a feeling about what Sonic could still be. Sure, the music's always been good in the series but it needs more than rock. The whole jazzy jpop thing was with Sonic in the begining and I'm curious to see how that would look with him today.
By the way, what ever happened to Richard Jaques?
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BlazeHedgehog
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I sometimes wonder if Sonic's design change since SA1 had to do with anything. Before he was all squat and bouncy and could move anyway he wanted and it looked right. Now he's all slick and tall and has mega influence on attitude so of course he LOOKS like he has to blast off in flames. Hell, if you look at his model in SA1 he still looked more squat than he does now. I don't know, I've actually just realized how much it bugs me.
I've said this a thousand times; Sonic was ALWAYS about "attitude" and the "xtreme" lifestyle, it's just now you're old enough to realize it's there. (Well, that, and, over the years, what constitutes as "attitude" and "xtreme lifestyle" has changed, but I digress) I mean, think about it: Snowboarding? Walking on the wings of an airplane in flight? Those aren't "xtreme" activities?
Sonic getting taller and leaner is simply a sign that they wanted Sonic to keep up with the times. A short, round, stubby little hedgehog couldn't be "cool" anymore, so his design had to evolve to stay cool. You might not think it's cool, but you're probably not in Sonic's official demographic anymore. To everybody 10-14 years old, Sonic's still cool. But those 10-14 year olds wouldn't find stubby Sonic cool; only we would, because we were there in his heyday.
Stylistically speaking, the evolution of the Sonic series has been pretty normal. Sega's just tried to keep Sonic up-to-date with current trends. Just because the music doesn't sound like the Genesis games doesn't mean it isn't cool; it just means this isn't 1993 anymore. (Gameplay on the other hand, has no such excuse)
Personally, I was all for Sonic's 80's hair band metal rock ballads, until the music became "GENERIC GUITAR RIFF #87 FOR 3 MINUTES WITH NO MELODY" (Sonic Heroes' Egg Fleet, I'm looking at you).
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Frieza2000
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BlazeHedgehog
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Segaholic2
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BlazeHedgehog
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It doesn't look edgy or extreme now, but 15 years ago? Yeah, it was. It's always been said that, both in terms of gameplay and personality, there was no videogame character like Sonic on the market because of his speed and his attitude.Ngangbius wrote:Yeah. This design:
Doesn't exactly screams 'edgey' or 'eXtreme' no matter how tough the character tries to look. It does look cute though.
Everything from his annoyed waiting animation to the simple finger-wag he does on the titlescreen gave him more attitude and personality than any videogame character ever made, pretty much. And jeeze, think of the Sonic CD FMV - how can you watch that and tell me Sonic didn't have attitude?
But, as I said. Times change. A simple finger waving animation isn't going to cut it anymore. Sonic had to change to remain "cool" for today's audience. Us saying Sonic Adventure's art style "ruined" Sonic is like some old grandpa sitting on his porch waving his cane at kids listening to heavy metal, saying, "IN MY DAY, WE USED TO LISTEN TO PAT BOONE."
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Shadow Hog
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You'd have to merge Music Plant with Toy Kingdom and the two ice levels (although they felt token in the first place), but that really could work.Zeta wrote:If you jammed all 20 something Zones together for one game, you might have something to rival S3K. But taken on their own, each one comes up a tad short.
Not quite there on it rivaling S3K, though. Something about the GBA screen made me feel really claustrophobic. Not sure if it was the resolution forcing Sonic to be a specific size (I noticed Eggman always seemed ridiculously small compared to his Genesis sprites—no way is his fat ass crammed in there) or if it's just in my head from playing it on a handheld after years of the TV. But I frequently felt like Sonic's in the middle of this well-designed level that he can't take advantage of because he's suddenly nearsighted.