So who's going to martyr themselves and buy the Shadow game?

[Professor Machenstein]

This is confusing. When SONICTEAM decides to so something different with the formula, we call it a gimmick in a negative sense. But when they untouch it like they appear to be doing in the STH (2006) demonstration, we want something else. Precisely how drastic of a change do we want? I might be asking the wrong question, I am not sure. Here, let's say you are in charge with the development of Sonic the Hedgehog (2006). What would you do with the game? Just trying to make an understanding here, that's all.

[Esrever]

Simply "trying something different" doesn't earn you a gold medal anywhere other than the first grade. In the real world, we only praise innovation that WORKS.

Not that it really matters in this case. I think the problem with Shadow is that it ISN'T actually innovative. Not substantially, anyhow. It's Sonic Heroes with guns thrown in. The core of the game itself is just as broken as it ever was, and the new elements are just window dressing lifted from other popular games. So now we have a broken game newly paired with this ridiculous X-treme pastiche and some really lousy looking shooting mechanics. That's not innovation!

I'm sure there are many folks here who would be THRILLED to tell you what they would do if they were in charge of the next Sonic game. But the general recurring requests seem to be: less constricted, linear level design; larger, more open environments with plenty of opportunities for optional exploration; a greater emphasis on actual interactive speed physics rather than scripted loops and ramps; a stronger focus on Sonic himself rather than his supporting cast; and no bottomless pits.

[Zeta]

This is confusing. When SONICTEAM decides to so something different with the formula, we call it a gimmick in a negative sense. But when they untouch it like they appear to be doing in the STH (2006) demonstration, we want something else. Precisely how drastic of a change do we want? I might be asking the wrong question, I am not sure. Here, let's say you are in charge with the development of Sonic the Hedgehog (2006). What would you do with the game? Just trying to make an understanding here, that's all.

Actually, after listening to many, many discussions on the subject here - most people here seem to share the same general opinion even if they don't point it out clearly. They want the core character of Sonic and his moves to remain almost entirely consistant, albiet with some adaptive tweaks here and there. I think almost everyone agrees on that. That's what most people want to remain constant.

What most people here seem to want in inovation is level design. Almost uniformly the most common complaint you'll hear on this board about Sonic games is that the latest levels are: too linear, too difficult, and too boring.

We want Sonic to remain the same. We want innovation and developments in the enviroment he runs around in.

Instead, we're getting the opposite. The characters keep on being drastically changed from one game to another (teams, weird character modes, guns) while the level formula of one path through bottomless pits remains constant.

[Professor Machenstein]

Not that it really matters in this case. I think the problem with Shadow is that it ISN'T actually innovative. Not substantially, anyhow. It's Sonic Heroes with guns thrown in. The core of the game itself is just as broken as it ever was, and the new elements are just window dressing lifted from other popular games. So now we have a broken game newly paired with this ridiculous X-treme pastiche and some really lousy looking shooting mechanics. That's not innovation!

I was not talking about the Shadow game. Check page 2. Somebody said Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) looked basically like a pretty Sonic Adventure, so I was wondering what should be done for it to avoid such a title and make it stand out at its own game. I was not defending the Shadow game in any way. My post wasn't even about that.

I apologize for the confusion. Damn page 3.

[Zeta]

Hey, a pretty Sonic Adventure is a BAD thing?

[Light Speed]

Well yeah, I could just go play Sonic Adventure, the first thing everyone says when judging a game is graphics don't really count for shit.

[Owen Axel]

I have enough scavenger in my gene pool to appreciate a nice amount of eye candy. Oh, look, something shiny!

If the worst case scenario means playing Sonic Adventure over again with new prettier levels, then I'll be satisfied enough. I'd prefer to see something better, but I won't pull a SegaSonic-meets-new-Espio over it.

[(No Imagination)]

What 3D Sonic games need are surrealistic, free-roaming levels with no bottomless pits. That's all. No gimmick, no angsty new characters, no broken storyline involving anyone but Sonic and Eggman. Just give him imaginative levels and code them well, goddamit. It can't be that hard.

And oh, the newer ones need Sonic Adventure's physics model. Aside from the jump being a bit sensitive, it was perfect.

At least compared to Sonic "You Direct Me To Stop Near The Edge But I'm Still Going At An Even Faster Pace And I Guess I'll Just Run Off This Cliff Right Here" Heroes. *shudder*

Edit: And they seriously need to remove the grinding and perfomance ranking.
(rant)
The grinding feature, before you know it, eats up your level design and turns it into a long vertical streak of wires with a giant bottomless pit underneath it. Hey, it was cool in City Escape. We know Sonic can look exxxtreme, Sonic Team. You gave us grinding in Sonic Adventure 2. Now please drop it and never mention it to anyone ever again. Grinding destroyed the Sonic level design we once loved; it brought an endless supply of bottomless pits to the games, and also turned the level designers into lazy smartasses who think they will satisfy the player by giving him an exxxtreme camera pan showing Sonic grinding on a long vertical strip of a level 2000 miles above terrain. Not cool.
The performance ranking is even more evil. Hey, don't get me wrong. I got all the emblems in SA2 and unlocked Green Hill back in the day. Even A-ranked a few Sonic Heroes levels. But the rankings need to go. The feeling of being graded robs the player of freedom and hinders the lust for exploration...you're given a choice of either playing by the book, exactly as the designers wanted and as fast as possible, or getting a bad rank. What's up with that?! I take my time to explore, and play the level like I want, not like the designer wanted, and I get a bad grade for it? Please. I got sick of grades in high school. I don't wanna see them when I relax, put my mind away and just play some Sonic.
Bleah.
(/rant)

[Senbei]

Well, I don't know about Heroes, but bad grades in SA2 were easy to ignore for me. After all, no one says we have to reach the goal ring in the first place. That being so, you're free to explore as much of the level as you want. Sometimes, that kind of exploration is even vital to achieving an A rank, as there might be a hidden trick that you'd have missed during faster gameplay, like in Pyramid Cave. Then, once you know about that trick, you can play it by the book, which really isn't so bad. 80% of the time, the level designers had chosen the fastest, funnest route for you get an A rank.
But that doesn't need to come back in any future games.

[(No Imagination)]

I dunno. It was fine for the first couple of levels in SA2, but later on I got the feeling of grades "rushing" me to complete the levels as perfectly as possible. The feeling it irritates me, as I never got rid of it; even after completing all A ranks in the game, I just can't take it easy, take my time and distract myself with a nice piece of detail on one of the textures, for example, like I did for Sonic Adventure. I just have to rush the level, or risk seeing an E or D at the end and thinking how I should do better (with the character reminding me how I suck at playing the game, after displaying the rank..."I'm ashamed to call myself a treasure hunter!"..."I guess I'm not at full power here."..."Hey! Pump it up!!" etc.).

...as for the original SA, which doesn't grade you...let's just say the freedom of having no ranks shows in my Big records. I'm talking 25000+ g of fish caught in Emerald Coast and Hot Shelter... =P

(It's about playing the game just to have fun, not to get a good grade or score. For me, grades ruin the experience somewhat. Having your character tell you you suck after getting a bad grade, even after completing every level with an A rank, doesn't help, either.)

[Professor Machenstein]

Hey, a pretty Sonic Adventure is a BAD thing?

Not really, but when Light Speed said Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) looks pretty much just like a very very pretty SA1, I recalled, "Hey, that's what Green Gibbon! said on his website." I also recalled him saying something like the ice is thin and a prettier Sonic Adventure isn't gonig to be enough or something like that. So, I was wondering what should be done and stuff. Esrever pretty much summarized it all, so everything's okay.

GRINDING SUCKS GET RID OF IT

The grinding itself isn't the problem; it's what SONICTEAM did with it. You said it yourself, the grinding is much better when not suspended over 2000 miles of bottomless pits. It was better in City Escape because you didn't have to worry about falling into a bottomless pit. But later on, SONICTEAM went crazy with and you know what happened.

[Double-S-]

I agree about the grades. Just annoying. Sonic is not a performance game.

Grinding wouldn't be such a bad thing in Sonic games if the designers only followed 2 rules: Never longer than a few seconds, and missing the rail just sends you onto a different path for the level.

[Final_Cosmos_the_Ultra]

Fuck no.

Gee Delphine thank you for your wonderful contribution to society and your restraint to use inappropriate words. Maybe you should go back to sleeping with your friend's talking dog. Anyway...I was thinking about seeing how horrible the Shadow the Hedgehog video game would be, but after seeing that intro movie I was scared. So after being traumatized by Sonic Team's abomination I decided that I would just pretend it didn't exist. Of course that's not going too well. Love you Delphine so says mister Douche Bag. Yes don’t forget Delphine I’m your Douche Bag before the GHZ's.

[Samface]

I am sensing anger.

[Frieza2000]

I don't like the grades either. It forces me to play the level more than I want to. Getting a high score or fast time should be reward enough in itself without making it a requirment to unlock everything.

At the same time, I <i>would</i> like to feel some degree of challange in the levels. In the genesis games, gathering rings for the special stages and SS transformation is what accomplished that. It was also optional; I think that's important for a Sonic game. Some players want to explore, some want to feel like they're flying at breakneck speed, and others want to play high-scoreathon. All should be equally provided for.

[Majestic Joey]

I've always wondered if sonicteam ever reads magazine reviews. Apparently they don't.

[Light Speed]

How long has Final Cjasklt ahsljkt sahdlka been back?

[Professor Machenstein]

Let me tell you a little tale of a man named Takashi Iizuka and the little game that couldn't.

Roughly two years ago, Electronic Gaming Monthly, Issue 169. Under the article "The adventure continues?" states that whether Heroes becomes a tip of a new series depends on us.
"We're just trying this new thing. If a lot of people like this idea, they'll get a continuation of the Heroes branch of games," said Iizuka.

More than half a year later, early 2004, the game disappoints millions. Of course, the game sold as much as the amount of people disappointed by it. Over the one-million mark, to be precise.

Commercially, Sonic Heroes was a success... But quality-wise, it recieved Disappointment of 2004. Even Penny-Arcade bothered to have a say on that trainwreck. Oh, but the sales. It was an inevitability that there would be a Sonic Heroes 2. Besides, SONICTEAM only cares about money and not what gamers think. So a sequel was bound to happen.

Exactly one year later, 2005, Yuji Naka announces that a Gamecube Sonic game is in the works. Still wrestling with the horrid taste of disappointment in our mouths and the surprising sales Sonic Heroes recieved, we were put in fear that the Gamecube Sonic game in the works would possibly happen to be Sonic Heroes 2.

March 08, 2005, at the Walk of Game, Shadow the Hedgehog was reveiled. For some, maybe Sonic Heroes 2 would've been a better option after all. The trailer looked uninspired and generic as a cerial brand at a Save-A-Lot grocery store. The gun Shadow happened to be holding stirred up quite a lot in the gaming community too.

But as the months passed and more information of the game has been reveiled, we have grown a better understanding of the gameplay mechanics. For instance, it turns out the guns were not as prevalent to the gameplay as the trailer advertised. In other word, they were optional. In addition, there were more weapons than just guns. There were swords, lasers, sign posts, boulders, and tourches too. Anything that you could use in the environment you were in. It was like an extension of Sonic's ability to pick up things in Sonic Adventure 2.

We have learned of other things in Shadow the Hedgehog too. The Chaos powers, the ten different endings, the level layout, the AI-controlled partners, the new camera system, the use of transportation, the alliances, and most of all, we get Spindash... instead of Rocket Accel (Thank you, merciful Lord).

Now here is where things get really interesting. In the September issue of Nintendo Power, when asked what the future would hold for Shadow, Iizuka responds, "If [Shadow the Hedgehog] is well received, we'd like to give Shadow his own franchise." Does that sound familiar to anyone?

"We're just trying this new thing. If a lot of people like this idea, they'll get a continuation of the Heroes branch of games."

Hmm? HMM?! It appears history might repeat itself once more. Despite selling past the one-million point, Sonic Heroes wasn't well recieved at all. Therefore, that idea of a continuation completely ceased to exist. So what of Shadow the Hedgehog? We have two days until we find out. If it sucks (And chances are it might as well), then no franchise for Shadow. But if it proves to be a worthy title of establishing its own franchise, then shall it dance on Sonic Heroes' grave.

[Delphine]

Fuck no.

Gee Delphine thank you for your wonderful contribution to society and your restraint to use inappropriate words. Maybe you should go back to sleeping with your friend's talking dog. Anyway...I was thinking about seeing how horrible the Shadow the Hedgehog video game would be, but after seeing that intro movie I was scared. So after being traumatized by Sonic Team's abomination I decided that I would just pretend it didn't exist. Of course that's not going too well. Love you Delphine so says mister Douche Bag. Yes don’t forget Delphine I’m your Douche Bag before the GHZ's.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Brazillian Cara]

I'll buy the game, but to "conpensate" this, I'm planning to buy something I heard it was pretty worthwhile as well... something about "Lendas dos Céus de Arcadia"...

[Frieza2000]

If it sucks (And chances are it might as well), then no franchise for Shadow. But if it proves to be a worthy title of establishing its own franchise, then shall it dance on Sonic Heroes' grave.

This system fails when Shadow's massive, drooling fandom blinds themselves to how bad the game is simply because it's Shadow and it's XxxtReMmmE. I'm not sure if the unbiased voices will be heard over the din of their misspelled praise or if Sonic Team will care to hear them. And whether this particular game is good or not, Shadow's popularity is clearly great enough to make his own series profitable with or without guns.

[Baba O'Reily]

I'll try it.

[James McGeachie]

I've noticed there doesn't seem to be a single review of Shadow available anywhere yet, I wonder if they decided not to send out early copies to the press.

[Delphine]

Wasn't there one on IGN?

[James McGeachie]

Of Shadow? Not yet, but they are the only site I'm aware of with one for Rush.